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Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Scott Hebert said:
As I said to Graeme, my intent is not to change the balance point of the game, but to find a point where everything comes out to the cost that is listed for them in the games.

I understand but it will clearly change the balance of the game. Right it it looks like a lot of the powerful nations take it on the chin and I'm all for that. I look forward to a game with these new costs!

A game with these costs ( although the Nifel Jarl has to be worth more ) Sable Cherry's troop costs, Zen's spell mod, a crushing of battlefield spells ( a-la the mods Soapy has been running ), the change of all 0 enc to 1 enc, and the removal of life drain would be just swell for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Scott Hebert said:
Yes, but right now it's worth 10 more. Much more than that, and... well, I don't know. How much do you think an Assassin is worth? Do you think a Spy is worth more?

I always found them undercosted. If your nation can make spies that is a real plus which indicates in my mind that the ability is undercosted.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Scott Hebert said:
Well, I like to use them, at least. I think that in MP they would be less viable, as apparently MR is about the only stat that is of any use.

Hydras lose because they don't have a protection score that allows them to stand up to more than about 5 militia without a serious expenditure on bless effects. Then, MR matters on those expensive units because they are a large investment, and the easiest way to defeat single large creatures is with stuff like soul slay.

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The Druid also has an opportunity cost of 400g for the Temple and Laboratory to make him. The Daughter does not. Shouldn't that factor into the costs as well?

The temple is useful by itself, and having a second laboratory to spread out your researchers is also a pretty good idea.

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Hrm. I seem to do well enough with Enchantment-3 and the Raise spells (they can throw about 5 or so each before falling over).

5 raise skeletons is only 25 longdead. 25 longdead, while being fairly significant as a delaying tactic, don'tnlast very long if you've planned to face undead.

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Do you use non-summoned troops at all in your games?

Sure. I use more national troops that I really should in most cases, because I try to take my first province at turn two, and move up to two per turn by turn 4-5 at the latest. I don't, however, use very many con-commander summoned troops.Devils, fiends, lamia's and a couple of others are worthwhile. I find that in most other cases I'd be better off spending the gemson equipment.

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That would require an entire re-write of Illwinter's magic cost formula to compensate. Would you like me to do that, and then report on what everyone's mages should cost?

Well, maybe not to the extreme that is Caelum, but C'Tis is probably a good baseline.

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At this point, I think you should talk to Illwinter about their costing formulas, then.

Well, that's the reason that few people play Broken Empire Ermor as well. The Grand Thaumaturgs cost twice what a Sauromancer costs, but are also capital only and limited to D2S2?1. Even bumping them up to D3S2?1 makes them a significant threat.

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Again, there is always a way to handle that issue.

Commanders without backup troops get overrun too easily by lifeless battle summons.

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Mm. Wouldn't that make Sages even better than they are currently?

Probably. I'd also get rid of the research bonus on sages in that case.

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I would think that with the spells a Vanadrott can cast, the HPs would not be as great of an issue.

It would have to have fire and cold immunity, which pretty much needs miscellaneous equipment slots. This would leave its MR lacking, or leave it without sufficient prot to survive being swarmed.

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Again, that is your opinion. If I have casters who can cast Acashic Record, I generally prefer to use that than the other site-searching spells.

Unless you haven't searched the province at all, that's costing you more in gems than using the individual spells.

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Oh, it's very rare, I'll grant you. I wanted to know more from a 'did I use the correct formula to cost them' standpoint than anything else.

Yes, you did.

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And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

If astral and death magic didn't provide those things, then they wouldn't be nearly as useful at low levels. This would further marginalize most of the nations and pretenders by reducing the number of viable strategies.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Graeme Dice said:

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Scott Hebert said:
Well, I like to use them, at least. I think that in MP they would be less viable, as apparently MR is about the only stat that is of any use.

Oh, yes, I agree there. Regarding Hydras, though, a Nature-4 blessing is normal for me (and also puts you in good stead to get Gift of Health).

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The Druid also has an opportunity cost of 400g for the Temple and Laboratory to make him. The Daughter does not. Shouldn't that factor into the costs as well?

The temple is useful by itself, and having a second laboratory to spread out your researchers is also a pretty good idea.

Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

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Hrm. I seem to do well enough with Enchantment-3 and the Raise spells (they can throw about 5 or so each before falling over).

5 raise skeletons is only 25 longdead. 25 longdead, while being fairly significant as a delaying tactic, don'tnlast very long if you've planned to face undead.

25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

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Do you use non-summoned troops at all in your games?

Sure. I use more national troops that I really should in most cases, because I try to take my first province at turn two, and move up to two per turn by turn 4-5 at the latest.

I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do. I mean, I play with good Scales and such, but I never seem to have enough money to do anything.

Then again, I do play on small maps normally, so the games don't last that long.

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I don't, however, use very many con-commander summoned troops.Devils, fiends, lamia's and a couple of others are worthwhile. I find that in most other cases I'd be better off spending the gemson equipment.

To outfit SCs?

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That would require an entire re-write of Illwinter's magic cost formula to compensate. Would you like me to do that, and then report on what everyone's mages should cost?

Well, maybe not to the extreme that is Caelum, but C'Tis is probably a good baseline.

C'tis isn't that much out of whack, actually.

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At this point, I think you should talk to Illwinter about their costing formulas, then.

I love Broken Empire Ermor. Pythium's troops with Undead armies?

Score.

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Again, there is always a way to handle that issue.

Commanders without backup troops get overrun too easily by lifeless battle summons.

That's why you have a couple of commanders spamming your own lifeless battle summons, right?

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Mm. Wouldn't that make Sages even better than they are currently?

Probably. I'd also get rid of the research bonus on sages in that case.

That would certainly be interesting. You'd have to change some of the other mages as well, and you'd also increase the cost of random picks in general with that.

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I would think that with the spells a Vanadrott can cast, the HPs would not be as great of an issue.

It would have to have fire and cold immunity, which pretty much needs miscellaneous equipment slots. This would leave its MR lacking, or leave it without sufficient prot to survive being swarmed.

Mm. Everything is focussed around making unkillable SCs, isn't it? I wonder if anyone could destroy that capability in the game...

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Again, that is your opinion. If I have casters who can cast Acashic Record, I generally prefer to use that than the other site-searching spells.

Unless you haven't searched the province at all, that's costing you more in gems than using the individual spells.

Assuming I have access to all of the individual spells, yes. A lot of the time, I don't.

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And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

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What, in your opinion, WOULD increase the number of options while also decreasing reliance on SCs?

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Scott Hebert said:
Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

I think it's because nature 2 is very useful in general to a nation without nature mages, but not that useful to a nation with N3A2?1 mages.

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25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

It's a very good strategy. You do need a screen of living troops to prevent being arrowed, and to prevent cavalry charges.

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I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do.

You don't do everything, you basically pick and choose which things you're going to concentrate on, and hope that your allies can help to cover the holes.

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To outfit SCs?

I'd classify them as thugs.

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I love Broken Empire Ermor. Pythium's troops with Undead armies?

I like them too, it's just that they are missing something to give them punch.

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That's why you have a couple of commanders spamming your own lifeless battle summons, right?

You can do that, but you'll also need to bring a storm along to keep those commanders safe.

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Everything is focussed around making unkillable SCs, isn't it?

Not everything, Vanadrott's are unparalled as a raiding force, and if you could make them fly would be nearly unstoppable.

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Assuming I have access to all of the individual spells, yes. A lot of the time, I don't.

I always make it a priority to find and/or develop mages that are capable of casting those spells.

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What, in your opinion, WOULD increase the number of options while also decreasing reliance on SCs?

Change the routing behaviour to allow one to force commanders to remain on the battlefield unless the commander fails a morale check. This would allow a nation like Ulm to take down many SCs using black lords with cheaply forged equipment. You could also use commanders like Firbolgs in large quantities without worrying about whether one of them will be killed and flee the battlefield.

Spells that can significantly improve the abilities of normal troops at easier to reach research points than alteration 9.

More games should be played on the rich setting as well, as it places the magic/might balance point at a considerably different location. Or just mod the game so that every province produces twice as much gold.

Change encumbrance and fatigue so that they are less granular, and so that stronger and larger creatures aren't as fatigued by their armour.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

In Master of Magic the problem was solved by combination of unit buffs and more powerful experience levels which only affects nationl units.
One thing I think would like is that summonables with 14+ stats would start with few experience stars and get their stats lowered so that it amounts the same thing. Then elite and experienced nationals would have some change of killing Devils etc, as they wouldn't have gotten the same bonuses as fast.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Graeme Dice said:
Spells that can significantly improve the abilities of normal troops at easier to reach research points than alteration 9.

Zen has done this in his mod and it is getting a serious workout in the Faerun game.

If you are in the camp who thinks SC's are too powerful then simply changing all units to have at least 1 base encumberance and removing lifedrain weapons works swell.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Huzurdaddi said:
Zen has done this in his mod and it is getting a serious workout in the Faerun game.

I didn't last long enough in that game to see how those changes worked, so what kind of effects are army of gold and lead having?

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

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Graeme Dice said:

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Scott Hebert said:
Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

I think it's because nature 2 is very useful in general to a nation without nature mages, but not that useful to a nation with N3A2?1 mages.

I do, too, normally. That's why I like Nature Pretenders so much. In fact, I think that the Lady of Fortune is my all-time favorite.

BTW, I'm experimenting with Last of the Tuatha Sidhe Champion rush, and it's looking good so far. While not the fastest thing in the world, it's certainly rather solid, and doesn't suffer from the 'screening' problems you mention below.

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25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

It's a very good strategy. You do need a screen of living troops to prevent being arrowed, and to prevent cavalry charges.

*nods*

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I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do.

You don't do everything, you basically pick and choose which things you're going to concentrate on, and hope that your allies can help to cover the holes.

What means this 'allies'? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

Pursuant to the conversation Graeme and I had in this thread, here's a list of mage costs using a slightly different formula. It uses the Caelian Seraph and the 'low end' mages (Seithkona, etc.) as a balance point.

Warning: This is rather radical, and uses a cost reduction gradient for capital-only commanders.

King of the Deep - 180
Initiate of the Deep - 50
Deep Seer - 155

Theurg Acolyte - 80
Theurg - 140
Arch Theurg - 310

Serpent Acolyte - 80
Serpent Priest - 165

Daughter of Avalon - 65
Mother of Avalon - 80
Crone of Avalon - 155

Sidhe Champion - 95
Sidhe Lord - 135
Tuatha - 205

Master Smith - 100

Black Priest - 130

Illuminated One - 60
Second Tier - 100
Fortuneteller - 80

Sauromancer - 160
Shaman - 80
Empoisoner - 75

Keeper of the Tombs - 100
Marshmaster - 145

Priestess - 110
Mystic - 135
Astrologer - 140

Seraph - 100
High Seraph - 190

Harab Seraph - 90
Seraph - 90
Harab Elder - 180

Thaumaturg - 130
Grand Thaumaturg - 285

Inquisitor - 110
High Inquisitor - 210
Initiate - 60
Witch Hunter - 120
Grand Master - 245

Diabolist - 80
Goetic Master - 150

Chartmaker - 80
Royal Navigator - 150

Dryad - 110
Pan - 195
Pandemoniac - 160

Dryad - 80
Pan - 170

Panic Apostate - 170
Black Dryad - 80

Vanherse - 100
Vanjarl - 150
Vanadrott - 205
Dwarven Smith - 130

Galderman - 120
Volva - 80

Hangadrott - 235
Svartalf - 115

Vaetti Hag - 60
Jotun Skratti - 150
Gygja - 135

Seithkona - 90
Norna - 135

Niefel Jarl - 500 (since everyone agrees he's worth that much)

Starchild - 60
Starspawn - 130
Starspawn - 180

Mictlan Priest - 80
Priest King - 140
Rain Priest - 140
Moon Priest - 140
High Priest of the Sun - 240

Master of the Way - 100
Celestial Master - 160

Master of the Dead - 80
Master of the Five Elements - 130
Celestial Master - 190

Witch Doctor - 80
Sorcerer - 130
Sorceress - 85
Black Sorcerer - 140

Anathemant Salamander - 130
Anathemant Dragon - 270
Warlock Apprentice - 90
Warlock - 175
Demonbred - 160

Newt - 80
Sanguine Acolyte - 80
Sanguine Anathemant - 130

Re: Random Picks and Modding...

Lots of cheap mages!

Do you have what the Niefel Jarl would have been with your formula?