Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Well, I plan no further excursions into the gray area of our NAP, so to speak. I am willing to stand by the terms of our NAP until it expires, to the word and to the spirit. My actions mean no disrespect to you, there's no violation of our NAP and these lands were uncontested for at least one turn before I took them. I already told you that if you want you can answer with the same coin.

However, If you have come to the decision that an immediate termination of our NAP aligns with your interests then I would not force you to wait anymore. We can then agree to give the attack orders next turn.

You see, I'm willing to play it as you will, taking a serious risk that you have a hidden reason for breaking the NAP earlier. I would say this, and being so close to winning puts you quite far from being a poor chump :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

[quote=archaeolept;706270]That claim is flawed. NAP stands for no aggression acts which by consensus include acts of war, attacks, remote spells and so forth. Attacking independent or 3rd party provinces is not a breach of NAP and is not a matter of interpretation.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Of course it is, as you yourself put forward. How else could it be considered a "grey area", something you "wouldn't normally do", except under the pressure of the situation (namely that I was about to match you in VPs and thus "close to winning the game"). If barbarians attack your province, it is not open to me, conventionally under a NAP, to take it while your attention is elsewhere (and then be defended from any counteraction by the supposed NAP), nor is there any "one turn rule" for dibsies. If this were not so, it would be possible to siege someone's cap w/ whom you supposedly have a non-aggression pact, or block paths of retreat in a war with a third entity (or interdict pursuing forces, as could have happened in the Eriu situation, as I almost sent forces into two of those territories to finish him off). No NAP could hold under such circumstances. Somewhat similarly, as you implied, no NAP can really hold under a situation of imminent victory, either ("force majeure").

But, as I said, I basically agree with your right to do so, though you could well have cleared up this question in advance before taking action, as that would have allowed me to operate under equivalent conditions :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

I see your points.
And well, they are not worth all the hassle. I can give 17 back to you this turn, 304 next turn and a province of mine in exchange for 282. There you go, I am stepping out of the gray and into the light ;)
Would that work for you?
I'm off to sleep now, please answer here or PM me if you wish to discuss different amendment. I suggest we come to an agreement before the turn hosts.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

that's a fair offer, WL - but I don't really mind you setting up to contest that VP - I think it would be better if we are free to contest and counter-contest all the vps, as we are both at 5 and sieging others. Maintaining the NAP in these conditions will just lead to further lawyerly discussions ;p

keep the territories, and have our actions free next turn?

also, I'll refrain from jumping on those tarts :p

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

edit: oic, 282 is the province next to the cap. still a reasonable proposal.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Immediate termination of the NAP puts me at a disadvantage since I haven't planned for it. If you like to end it earlier than I suggest we end it on turn 77 - i.e give hostile orders that turn. I think we should have plenty of time to brawl then since it's not likely any of us would get that last VP by then.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

neither have I planned for it - it is not like I was expecting you to teleport tarts in to territories in active dispute. The status of the NAP is highly questionable due to this being the end-game, and due to your own actions.

I will consider those territories as a legitimate target, as well as any VP area, in accordance w/ necessity, and following your own prior justification, though I am also willing to wait until next turn before any action. I certainly cannot trust that you will not decide to do something similar again, and so cannot deny myself from acting in a like manner.

If one desires to maintain the "technical" sense of a NAP one should perhaps consider the results of pushing a NAP to its limits. Either your anonymous rituals, or your interjection into the eriu territories, could reasonably be considered aggression and so proper casus belli, not even counting the fact that we are now fighting over game-winning VP's. Potentially game-winning VPs trump any prior agreements, anyways, through the logic of necessity. Trying to win behind a technical assertion of a NAP would be inane, IMO. "it's not likely any of us would get that last VP by then" is not sufficient guarantee.

I figured it would be best to discuss this in an open and clear manner. NAPs are not rules internal to the game, but dependent upon mutual consent and understanding.

In passing, it is also a good reason why such long NAPs are best avoided, as they are much more prone to lead to such issues.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

It is the end-game fight for the final VP's. Clearly, we are already at war. Let us stop pretending otherwise, then.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Thank you for giving me a clear warning before violating our NAP. One thing is obfuscated though - whether or not you are willing to wait until next turn before you take action. You say you do but in the same sentence you say you will attack my VPs and disputed territories. Since you are obviously intent on breaking our NAP can you please at least state clearly when you intend to do so?

Pasha, I will need to modify my turn according to Archae's decision. Can you please grant me time for that before hosting?

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

yes i'm happy to wait. sorry for any confusion on that point. I consider the NAP vitiated by your actions and due to the end-game circumstances, not violated by me as if there were no prior cause. If you were sieging the final vp, you would seriously not wish me to confront you? Likewise, you would not wish to confront me? Shouldn't a game of Dominions be decided by full force of arms, not by using some (virtual) scrap of paper? I consider my claim to godhood the stronger - please demonstrate to me that I am in error, if I am. Fight for it.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Thanks for the clarification.
I have one thing to say to you:

I fully agree with all you say :D

let the :fight: begin, let's see who makes it to :first:

BTW, this game is one the most exciting I have ever had the pleasure of participating in. I think the coming armaggedon war is just the icing on the cake :)

Good luck nemesis ;)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

yeah, it has been an epic game. I'm sorry for the victory conditions, is all. 9 VP would have been perfect.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Agree. I set 9 VPs as victory condition in my games. See YARG for example. I plan to host a new game after this one (well unless Pasha plans to host a new game ;) ). You and all the players here are welcome to join it.
No diplomacy as well means much less hassle and lawyer stuff :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

we should go 5 days/turn, definitely. these are f***ing huge.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Hello:

Turn 76 is out.

Deadline is Monday.

Thanks.

Pasha

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

I am happy to switch to a 5-turn hosting period. Just let me know.

Pasha

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

yes, 5 day turns please. host on tuesday. This is now full-on end-game.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

No tartarians? I'm disappointed :(

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

I've asked for 5 turns some time ago. I'm glad we're in agreement now.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

heh, you spent twice in gems defending than I lost attacking - so I'll put it down as a minor tactical victory. Still, it was a pretty impressive agglomeration of starspawns :)

hopefully R'lyeh is as firmly committed to defending the VP that is now being sieged by its erstwhile ally. Somewhat of a plot twist there...

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Yeah, without killing the tartarians it wasn't nearly as satisfying a victory.

As to the other VP, well, that's aristander's problem.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

what is the status of the sub for caelum?

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

sub for Caelum?- What???

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Caelum is dropping out because of vacation. I was thinking of taking over for him. Any objections? I could seek out a different substitute.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Pasha, I would personally prefer if another sub could be found. Being that you are the host and that I tend to chat with you regarding my plans at times I think it may be better that way.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

ah, all he has to do is defend the castle...

and I can't submit a turn until I talk with the sub, so if we need someone else the turn will have to be delayed longer.

I guess the Caelian player could conduct some raids and the like as well, but really I can't see that as being significant.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Okay. I have asked a friend to be a sub instead. I will keep you posted.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

djo has agreed to take over Caelum. Thank you, djo! :D

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

The ghost of Shinuyama has returned to inhabit Caelum's corpse!

I understand that the turn is past due, but I will need until tomorrow to look it over and get it in. If anyone needs to communicate with Caelum, PM me, or feel free to use the email address I used in this game, if you still have it from one of Pasha's old messages from early on.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Welcome back on board djo :)

It seemed we're destined to be enemies on this map. I hope this jinx goes away when this game ends.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Hello:

Turn 77 is out.

Deadline is Thursday night at 9pm Boston time.

Thanks.

Pasha

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

I guess you won that wraithlord :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Yes.I think that even with very pessimistic prediction that my victory is inevitable. Not to take anything away from your awesome game but it does seem like this one is done.

Want to end it now or wait 2-3 turns for me to take them VPs?

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Oh and Archae. I would of course be willing to cont. the war to the end by victory condition. Tedious as it may be (and blocking me from starting a new game :D ) I would willingly continue if you would so like.

I think you had a great game going and had you not been involved in so many wars for so long our positions may very well have been reversed.
I personally have learned quite a few from watching your moves this game. Impressive indeed :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

ah, I meant that I had lost that battle, not that the game itself was lost

you still need two VPs :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Fair enough. Now, off to work :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Oh and re. said battle. What a spectacular show! I enjoyed it greatly yet was somewhat frustrated when the stupid AI disobeyed a direct order to cast storm warriors. Hopefully, in the sure to come next round (this turn), it will show more reason and cast the frigging spell.

Good play and yet another outstanding moment in this game to remember.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

heh I promised myself that I wouldn't need an extra day this time... but after those crushing losses, this turn is going to be extra tough. hopefully caelum and aristander are able to defend their respective VP's. I'm especially apologetic to people like DC who so much dislike delayed turns; I'm sure WL will just spend the extra time perfecting his mm. :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

:lol I was sure I'll need some additional 48h just to complete the turn, but unexpected free time this evening got me close to finishing the turn. So I don't really need more time anymore, but I'll take the extra delay to hone my orders some more -- and hope the AI don't betray me yet again.

archaeolept, I'm sure you'll bring a world of hurting on my armies next turn. * Jotun armies - find nearest hole and crawl in it and perhaps Van's lightninators won't find you *

That said, I do wish you good luck in the coming turn :)

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Special! This month only! The nation of Caelum is delighted to announce a demonstration of the culinary art of "Cooking with Lightning". We'll be serving "Charred Giant on a Stick" (tofu giant filets available for vegetarians).

Please RSVP with the size of your party so we can let Jotunheim know how many, er, "guests" to send.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

@ W/A - hurry up and kill each other before Pan gets bored and starts lashing out senselessly - the fury of nature and all.

Ashdod does rightfully belong to us and our rogue assassin is still at large...

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

about that 48 hrs thing... that looks to be like what i'll need. there's just no way i can get this monstrous thing in by today; so tomorrow, pasha willing.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Our Pasha, who art in Maine,
Hallowed be thy iMac,
Thy Gmail come, thy hosting be done,
In Orania as it is in Aran.
Give us this day our daily turn,
And forgive us our postponements,
As we forgive those who postpone against us,
Lead us not into staling,
And deliver us from MMO-dom.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

hilarious djo - i fear i will never be able to hear the original without being reminded of your pasha version.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

actually guys, I just found out that I'm out all day tomorrow, which should have been all free :(

Hopefully I can get back in time to do the turn; I'm always open to suggestions in situations like this, but endgame turns can be problematic when fitting them in w/ one's other obligations.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

Hello:

Turn 78 is out.

Deadline is FRIDAY.

Thanks.

Pasha

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

I'm quite sick of drama, but it seems pointless to work on a huge turn when the game seems to be being thrown. R'lyeh was completely capable of putting on a good defense of his VP (as I knew since he had a huge teleporting army that rdonj, while he was subbing r'lyeh a few turns back, had created under wraithlord's active help that countered my small assault force), but he left it completely undefended. There might be some explanation, though none strikes me as obvious, but he never responded to my pm's offering help.

So why put in time and effort for a fixed or thrown game?

It's too bad. This has, until now, been a truly epic game of Dominions.

I guess I'm interested in what the other players would like done? Of course I won't be playing any further games w/ Aristander (without some sort of good explanation), but I wouldn't be surprised if he's stopping playing. If I had done some dastardly backstab on him, or something, then I could understand it psychologically. But he attacked me; the only animosity he might hold would be due to me smacking him around some :)

edit: if players would like to continue anyways as is, I have the day off tomorrow and could do the turn.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

IMO your comments towards Aristander are out of line. He is nobody's puppet and has the right to make his own decisions in the game. From what I know you two were at war and you were on your way to finish him and TC (like you did Eriu) had I not intervened.
Your fate is in your hands and while Caelum obviously works with/for you R'lyeh doesn't. If you wanted to make sure that VP is not taken by me you should have acted directly against me. We are at war after all so there's nothing stopping you from doing so.

Your expectation that R'lyeh do what is best for you is not reasonable, especially considering that you are at war.

I were in similar positions to your own in other games and never held anything against whoever might have refused to "see reason" the way I do or "stop the leader" the way I wanted. So I think that saying that you won't play with Aristander in the future is somewhat childish. You make a personal matter out of what is clearly circumstantial and limited to game politics and climate.

Re: Asia Twist - PBEM
 

that's total bull**** Wraithlord. It's a VP game, and he threw the vp to you. In fact, you besieged it the turn rdonj, who was in his words mostly operating under your directions, ceased to sub for aristander.

So, to be clear, you are not at all opposed to people trying to throw a game?

Personally, I can't think of a non-cheating act lower than that.

Well, then, I ask for a day to consider my options.