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-   -   Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43949)

Digress February 2nd, 2010 08:15 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vfb (Post 729478)
EoG is useful to:
- take up a global slot, without making people mad
- let you look at the gear on the heroes in the HoF
I have cast it for the first reason - but class it as showing off. Basically saying "I can burn a bunch of pearls just to see whats cooking". I take the view that you can never have too many astral pearls ... never.

I had no idea it gave you info on heroes ... thanks.

BigDaddy February 2nd, 2010 11:35 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Why CBM?

Is it to make dom3 a more relaxing casual game?

I ask because it seems like, if someone knows a nation intimately, that then they can use it, and the game is probably fair (it is 23b afterall) without the CBM.

I guess what I'm asking is why and when do you like to use the CBM?

Like this, let's say I like to clam hoard with Atlantis, because it can be hard climb up on land and make war after I take out another underwater nation. So, with the CBM I can no longer clam hoarde, and the other players are no longer concerned bout Atlantis hoarding clams and suddenly emerging to beat them into a pulp...

I say clam hoarding as a time bomb for underwater nations... you have to find a way to go down there and get him...

I remember in dom2 without the CBM clam hoarding was violently fast... They have slowed it tons in the stock version since then. I think that they have thought carefully about how fast clams pay off. Does it make sense to make clams unique in all cases?

rdonj February 3rd, 2010 12:03 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Vanilla is not really that well balanced, really. There are a number of nations that are just plain stronger than most others. They are still beatable, but there are just far fewer chinks in their armor than most nations. CBM doesn't really try to address this that much, though it does make some of the grossly overpowered nations a bit more reasonable. Mostly what CBM does though is make more strategies viable, and try to work around bad mechanics (see: clam nerf). I prefer playing CBM because it improves a lot of spells and pretenders that are pretty useless in vanilla, and makes them actually usable and fun.

Squirrelloid February 3rd, 2010 04:12 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729520)
Like this, let's say I like to clam hoard with Atlantis, because it can be hard climb up on land and make war after I take out another underwater nation. So, with the CBM I can no longer clam hoarde, and the other players are no longer concerned bout Atlantis hoarding clams and suddenly emerging to beat them into a pulp...

I say clam hoarding as a time bomb for underwater nations... you have to find a way to go down there and get him...

I remember in dom2 without the CBM clam hoarding was violently fast... They have slowed it tons in the stock version since then. I think that they have thought carefully about how fast clams pay off. Does it make sense to make clams unique in all cases?
This is bad game design because you're basically saying a UW nation basically should stop playing the game for awhile (30 turns? 50?) unless someone else can be bothered to come and fight them underwater. In the meantime, they should be able to build up an insurmountable advantage by just sitting back and clamming?

Winning the game should involve playing the game. Not just seeing how much you can abuse the forging system. And attacking UW is really hard in Vanilla - I'd say it would be next to impossible for a land nation to take out an UW nation before late game. Further, there's the social problem of everybody knowing you're sitting there clamming, but no one is willing to attack you because it weakens them, so you just don't get attacked. (Of course, everyone is clamming, and water income is actually less common underwater, so you probably lose the clamming race anyway. This is a pretty degenerate metric for winning/losing the game).

The lack of interactivity between land and water nations is a serious problem in vanilla. CBM in 1.6 took large strides towards fixing this by making access UW easier, and the ability of aquatic-only commanders to leave the seas easier (cheaper water-breathing and air-breathing items). And this is a good thing. Attacking underwater is still too hard, even with these changes, but at least it can happen earlier and requires fewer resources.

Besides, not fighting a war is still plenty beneficial at present (don't need to divert valuable mage resources to combat, or use as much cash on armies so you can spend it on mages or infrastructure). But clams just turned it into an 'I win' button if you could successfully turtle and forge tons of clams. As a strategy that simply had to go.

Stavis_L February 3rd, 2010 10:03 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729520)
Why CBM?
Ok - a lot of people are going to respond with MP balance related responses, which is valid, and nice and all, but only one reason to use it. A perhaps more pragmatic reason is that a large number of MP games are started using it, so familiarity is helpful if you intend to join a lot of MP games.

For me, however, the big attraction of CBM is that it lets you do things that you otherwise wouldn't do due to opportunity cost. For instance - Dragon Master. This always sounded cool in vanilla, but was always too expensive to justify. In CBM, it's cheaper, so it actually sees some use. As another example, see the use of wholesale transformation in e.g. Baalz' Oceana guide (or his latest Pangea guide.) You can justifiably recruit or summon many more national units than before. You can use some of the "cool sounding" pretenders and not feel like you're taking a huge handicap for doing so. You can cast nifty spells that were previously "inferior" and never saw play.

It diversifies the game and expands the palette of economical strategies (somewhat.) It's not a panacea, but it does help.

Sombre February 3rd, 2010 10:38 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I think CBM is worthwhile even if you only play SP, because it evens out the difference between things which are hugely cost effective and those which are, essentially, far too little bang for you buck.

You might really like the concept and look of a certain summon, for instance abysian smoulderghosts. But whenever you use them, they do worse than far cheaper regular troops, which is discouraging, so you stop using them and almost inevitably drift towards stuff which works well, rather than stuff which is interesting (partly because the stuff which works actually survives and is affordable, while the other stuff dies horribly). Now if you introduce CBM, it makes those smoulderghosts, if used in an intelligent way, worth the cost. That idea you had of using them with sulphur clouds becomes feasible, because you can actually afford more of them. So you're able to make use of the units and tactics you want to without them being overshadowed too horribly by obvious better choices. They may still not be optimal, but at least they work ok.

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 11:01 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
But smoulderghosts is a conjuration 2 spell, it should be far inferior to level 8 spells... like animate archers. If the smoulderghosts become comparable to skeletal archers then the CBM is a game mechanics fail.

I don't know exactly how these two things were determined. Well, if you go straight for conjuration with Abysia, the smoulderghost seem intent to fill a very short term early game niche if you've got death gems, or you can cast protection spells on them. They also have a magic weapon. I could say that the smouldghosts suck for similar reasons that Caelum sucks. I think that's funny.

But, I'm not arguing against the CBM, I just think it takes away from nation specific skill.

Since I always played MP with added AI players, clamming hard with the computer set to aggressive. The objective should be to make rushing more appealing.

IMHO nations without an H3 priest are at a serious disadvantage as they can be easily rushed. Maybe we should give everyone H3 priest? How do you make up for the fact that every MA Pythium city has a H3 brigade of "researchers" inside it? You don't, that is just how Pythium is. Or maybe we could just tinker with smite... I just smote my brother in MP the other day (10 Kings of Rain showed up at his territory on turn 16). He still thinks its scary... especially because I was also ahead in research. Maybe getting smote doesn't bother people as much because it happens early in the game, whereas losing because you of clamming takes days.


Unless they have a titan pretender which can kill lots of priests without equipment. But then you can't heal your pretender until you get to conjuration or construction 8.

I guess it isn't that I fail to see the usage of the CBM, I just fail to see the game as horribly imbalanced in the first place.

KissBlade February 3rd, 2010 11:55 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
If you find it balanced in the first place, then don't use a balance mod. =) However, a lot of people don't find it balanced so opt for the alternative.

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 12:28 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I seem to having some difficulty getting my point across or my question across. In what cases should I use the CBM? Most of the people on this thread are divided between "never" and "always." It's clearly a popular mod.

In what cases should I use the CBM?

KissBlade February 3rd, 2010 12:47 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
There is no "should". As I said, it is a matter of opinion. You stated that you felt the game has no imbalancing issues. In that case, why would you use a "balancing mod" if you felt it added nothing to balance. The point of cbm is for people who felt "Hey, some of these pretenders/troops/summons/nations don't appear to be costed right ..." or "Turtlegemgenthreehourmicro" is not fun. If you have none of these issues, then why use it? ;)

Squirrelloid February 3rd, 2010 04:13 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729586)
But smoulderghosts is a conjuration 2 spell, it should be far inferior to level 8 spells... like animate archers. If the smoulderghosts become comparable to skeletal archers then the CBM is a game mechanics fail.

I don't know exactly how these two things were determined. Well, if you go straight for conjuration with Abysia, the smoulderghost seem intent to fill a very short term early game niche if you've got death gems, or you can cast protection spells on them. They also have a magic weapon. I could say that the smouldghosts suck for similar reasons that Caelum sucks. I think that's funny.
His point was that smoulderghosts in vanilla are so bad, no one would ever spend gems on them. You can pay gold for better troops. Since gems > gold (bar fire gems), you'll never spend gems to get troops worse than what you can just hire.

Quote:
But, I'm not arguing against the CBM, I just think it takes away from nation specific skill.
Er... non-sequitur? How? There are still nations, they have distinct national units, they have particular paths and pretender choices. In fact, CBM increases nation differentiation *because* it removes gem gens. Since you can't just clam/blood-stone/fever fetish your way to arbitrarily large gem pools, your endgame is no longer nothing but summoned troops and mages. National mages and troops are more important all game long.

Quote:
Since I always played MP with added AI players, clamming hard with the computer set to aggressive. The objective should be to make rushing more appealing.
... no no no. The objective should be to make the game more balanced and interesting so every nation has a fair shake. Rushing is already really powerful - if anything, it could probably use a little toning down in some cases. Ideally, mid-game should be longer and more relevant, since that's the interesting part of the game.

Quote:
IMHO nations without an H3 priest are at a serious disadvantage as they can be easily rushed. Maybe we should give everyone H3 priest? How do you make up for the fact that every MA Pythium city has a H3 brigade of "researchers" inside it? You don't, that is just how Pythium is. Or maybe we could just tinker with smite... I just smote my brother in MP the other day (10 Kings of Rain showed up at his territory on turn 16). He still thinks its scary... especially because I was also ahead in research. Maybe getting smote doesn't bother people as much because it happens early in the game, whereas losing because you of clamming takes days.
You could afford to send 3500 gold worth of commanders on an offensive on turn 16? You do realize how horribly inefficient that is right? I'd take equal gold against them any day. The smite isn't what makes them scary. One of them dropping divine blessing on 50 double-blessed jags would be a *lot* scarier, and a heck of a lot cheaper. (1600 gold vs. 3500 gold, assuming you had nothing but commanders in your example, which is almost certainly false). And by turn 16 he should have real counters. Like bladewind or thunderstrike. Smite is small potatoes by comparison.

Quote:
Unless they have a titan pretender which can kill lots of priests without equipment. But then you can't heal your pretender until you get to conjuration or construction 8.
Dar?

Quote:
I guess it isn't that I fail to see the usage of the CBM, I just fail to see the game as horribly imbalanced in the first place.
Where to start? Well, besides Ashdod (which CBM still hasn't nerfed enough).

We could start with their being only ~7 pretender chasses ever worth using in vanilla.

We could start with the strict domination of some nations over most others. I mean, nations like MA Man are still bad in CBM, but they are absolutely *hopeless* in vanilla.

We could start with the poorly balanced spells such that some of them are win buttons and others are useless or mostly useless.

I mean, what kind of specific examples would you like?

CBM doesn't just balance nations against each other, it also balances options against each other so more of the spells and units see play. Its done the latter of these rather well in many cases, in some as well as is possible without fundamental changes. (e.g., MA Ermor's censor cannot be priced so that it will ever be bought if it remains cap-only, so no change CBM could make that retains its cap-only status will effect how often it sees play).

Sombre February 3rd, 2010 05:13 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729607)
In what cases should I use the CBM?
You shouldn't ever use it if you find the game already balanced, obviously. Kissblade summed it up perfectly, no need for further discussion. You don't sound like you have a great deal of dom3 MP experience though, so maybe you're wrong about the balance. Keep playing and see how you feel :]

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 06:40 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelloid (Post 729685)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729586)
But smoulderghosts is a conjuration 2 spell, it should be far inferior to level 8 spells... like animate archers. If the smoulderghosts become comparable to skeletal archers then the CBM is a game mechanics fail.

I don't know exactly how these two things were determined. Well, if you go straight for conjuration with Abysia, the smoulderghost seem intent to fill a very short term early game niche if you've got death gems, or you can cast protection spells on them. They also have a magic weapon. I could say that the smouldghosts suck for similar reasons that Caelum sucks. I think that's funny.
His point was that smoulderghosts in vanilla are so bad, no one would ever spend gems on them. You can pay gold for better troops. Since gems > gold (bar fire gems), you'll never spend gems to get troops worse than what you can just hire.

Quote:
But, I'm not arguing against the CBM, I just think it takes away from nation specific skill.
Er... non-sequitur? How? There are still nations, they have distinct national units, they have particular paths and pretender choices. In fact, CBM increases nation differentiation *because* it removes gem gens. Since you can't just clam/blood-stone/fever fetish your way to arbitrarily large gem pools, your endgame is no longer nothing but summoned troops and mages. National mages and troops are more important all game long.



... no no no. The objective should be to make the game more balanced and interesting so every nation has a fair shake. Rushing is already really powerful - if anything, it could probably use a little toning down in some cases. Ideally, mid-game should be longer and more relevant, since that's the interesting part of the game.



You could afford to send 3500 gold worth of commanders on an offensive on turn 16? You do realize how horribly inefficient that is right? I'd take equal gold against them any day. The smite isn't what makes them scary. One of them dropping divine blessing on 50 double-blessed jags would be a *lot* scarier, and a heck of a lot cheaper. (1600 gold vs. 3500 gold, assuming you had nothing but commanders in your example, which is almost certainly false). And by turn 16 he should have real counters. Like bladewind or thunderstrike. Smite is small potatoes by comparison.

Quote:
Unless they have a titan pretender which can kill lots of priests without equipment. But then you can't heal your pretender until you get to conjuration or construction 8.
Dar?

Quote:
I guess it isn't that I fail to see the usage of the CBM, I just fail to see the game as horribly imbalanced in the first place.
Where to start? Well, besides Ashdod (which CBM still hasn't nerfed enough).

We could start with their being only ~7 pretender chasses ever worth using in vanilla.

We could start with the strict domination of some nations over most others. I mean, nations like MA Man are still bad in CBM, but they are absolutely *hopeless* in vanilla.

We could start with the poorly balanced spells such that some of them are win buttons and others are useless or mostly useless.

I mean, what kind of specific examples would you like?

CBM doesn't just balance nations against each other, it also balances options against each other so more of the spells and units see play. Its done the latter of these rather well in many cases, in some as well as is possible without fundamental changes. (e.g., MA Ermor's censor cannot be priced so that it will ever be bought if it remains cap-only, so no change CBM could make that retains its cap-only status will effect how often it sees play).
He attacked them through PD, and they had blood slaves with them. We play on indy's 7 or more, I'm used to 9, so I tend to make really powerful armies that are inefficient. They did have lab and a few demons... I was Mictalan afterall... he was bogarus, they killed a lot of heavy calvary. It is probably bad for my "professional" experience. It is true that I haven't played dom3 that much, I'm just an old dom2 player.

What are the 7 chassis? Enchantress, statue, fountain, fountain... actually I think all the immobile ones have their niche.

I never liked the titans, as they seem like late game mage artillery... because they really aren't good for taking provinces early on, and it doesn't take long until taking provinces with a few basic spells becomes a waste of their time.

Maybe I'm just missing some tactics somewhere.

I feel like I'm missing something. So, to find out, I need to play MA Man.

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 07:10 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
The reason I struggle with believing that a billion small changes -must- be necessary is that according to the company their patches (now 23b) include balances. And so, I wonder if vanilla spells are really balanced, or if maybe the CBM is in a strategy rut.

Or maybe the writers of the game don't see it as such a hardcore competitive game.

So, I'm just skeptical that they have said they been rebalancing it, but a nation, MA Man, is still way more difficult to win with.

Sombre February 3rd, 2010 07:35 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
KO and JK, the guys who made dom3, haven't really focused on balance. They have said as much themselves. The balance changes they have made have been very limited, the most notable ones being some nerfs to Hinnom, changing the cost of jaguar warriors and changing costs/cap restrictions for van and helheim. Each of these has really only been after many, many threads complaining about these units.

It's kinda cute that you think that way though. It must be balanced because it's had lots of patches. Heehee.

You say 'maybe I'm missing tactics somewhere' but judging from your posts I'd say you have only a beginner's grasp of dom3, which has a huge learning curve. You're missing a /huge/ amount currently.

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 07:40 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Well, then I disagree that clam hoarding should be made impossible. ROR 15 seems like a long time, but it pays off in the next game stage. How about ROR45?

Squirrelloid February 3rd, 2010 08:04 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729736)
Well, then I disagree that clam hoarding should be made impossible. ROR 15 seems like a long time, but it pays off in the next game stage. How about ROR45?
First of all, no one forges clams without hammers.

Second, consider there's other ways to reduce forging cost (Steel Ovens or Banefire Forge sites, Forge Lord pretender, Hammer of the Forge Lord artifact, Hammer of the Cyclops 'artifact' (wishable, not forgeable), Forge of the Ancients global spell), so there's no 'fair' cost for an item that produces gems and can be produced indefinitely. The max price reduction you can achieve is 80%, and it is quite possible to achieve that. (Well, there's some rounding factors involves as well, so the ultimate cost is actually less than 20% - you can reduce 5gem items to no gems with the right combination of reductions).

Squirrelloid February 3rd, 2010 08:12 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Worthwhile vanilla pretender chasses (I'm probably missing a few, but these are the ones that jumped out at me):

Wyrm
Gorgon
Cyclops
Prince of Death
Oracle
Fountain
Ghost King
Lich

(Avoiding pretenders who are very nation-specific, although most of those are just bad). So its 8, maybe a couple more i missed. (The dragons are probably perfectly playable, but why you'd choose them over the ridiculously cheap Gorgon or PoD is beyond me).

Sombre February 3rd, 2010 09:10 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Gorgon is only available to very few nations, but is a total no brainer.

PoD is not available to a handful, but as an awake SC is often a total no brainer.

But this is all stuff that's been covered a million times before :]

BigDaddy February 3rd, 2010 11:43 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Wait... Yes, I was LA Mictalan and I hired a King of Rain every turn from the begining until turn 16. I had 15. The performed all the major fighting, research, and blood collection duties, and my research was still very strong. I don't end up with as many demons, however, as the manual says I can, but then, I want to go to blood 5 and get the general. One of the Kings can ussually cast Ice Devil... It is entirely possible to hire the most expensive unit everyday, especially if its holy... Plus, the King of Rain can smite so I don't need any evo at all. I don't know, though, because it seems like the people here see that as a backward strategy.

Anyway, I digress... It is too bad, that clams can't be used in a way were the gems must stay on your mage, so that they can be used in their most enjoyable way, that is, that you don't have to micromanage your mages spell casting supplies so much. Ultimately I see why gem hoarding had to be disabled...

Trumanator February 3rd, 2010 11:47 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddy (Post 729799)
Wait... Yes, I was LA Mictalan and I hired a King of Rain every turn from the begining until turn 16. I had 15. The performed all the major fighting, research, and blood collection duties, and my research was still very strong. I don't end up with as many demons, however, as the manual says I can, but then, I want to go to blood 5 and get the general. One of the Kings can ussually cast Ice Devil... It is entirely possible to hire the most expensive unit everyday, especially if its holy... Plus, the King of Rain can smite so I don't need any evo at all. I don't know, though, because it seems like the people here see that as a backward strategy.
This really has nothing to do with CBM. Basically it sounds like you were winning anyways so it didn't really matter.

Trumanator February 4th, 2010 05:20 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
One more thing to add to the list of possible changes: Oceanian tritons really ought to have coral spears instead of regular spears imo. Its a flavor thing for the most part, but I think it also makes them a little more useful too.

militarist February 4th, 2010 10:22 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
What I'm missing in CBM is that authors would make a balance the way that races would be Competitive not only in it's age, but Cross ages as well. Just there should be some conceptual difference between races of different ages (for example EA would have easier and Cheaper access to magic, skills to storm castles, while LA - to protection, more patroling bonuses).

For me it's not clear why many races go worse and worse from EA to MA to LA. While other - not. If people like some race, and like to specialize in it, why not to give them joy of having his race playable and not nefed in one age compared to another?

The second thought I wanted to mention - heroes in a game doesn REALLY change a ballance (most of them), but they defenitely add pleasure and fun a lot. Why not just to make all races to have 3 hero? It wouldn't affect the balance, but would add some pleasure to play.

Trumanator February 4th, 2010 10:46 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Well, there really aren't very many single age games, so I'm guessing qm wasn't really considering it that much. As for heroes, CBM does make a lot of them better through its incorporation of the Worthy Heroes mod. Adding more heroes though is something that is very cool, but its somewhat beyond the scope of the mod.

militarist February 4th, 2010 11:21 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Thanks, good idea is to write about heroes in worthe heroes mode thread. That's true.

As for ages - LA is very rarely playable. And it's much less of lovemark than EA or MA. And I say about keeping in mind all nations - it's not really for single age mod. Just to make some holes in balance more obvious.And, btw, single age mod maybe not really playable exactly because of lack of ballance between ages.

Trumanator February 4th, 2010 11:23 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I'm not sure why LA isn't playable? Or what you mean by "lovemark", or how it matters about cross-age balance if you're not using Single Age mod?

kianduatha February 5th, 2010 12:33 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator (Post 729823)
One more thing to add to the list of possible changes: Oceanian tritons really ought to have coral spears instead of regular spears imo. Its a flavor thing for the most part, but I think it also makes them a little more useful too.
What? It contradicts the flavor, if anything. Oceanian tritons would never stoop down so low as to use coral spears. Also, Oceanian tritons are pretty awesome as is. Turtle warriors, though...maybe they're okay having coral spears.

militarist February 5th, 2010 12:51 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I didn't mean it's not playable. Just much less games are in LA, less magic, less giants :). And if we don't say about Rleh and Ermor, is any other race became better there then EA and MA? Maybe it's wrong to generalise though, but when I think about northen-themed nations had much more taste in EA, less in MA, and lowest fun in LA. Also LA Agartha comes to mind.

vfb February 5th, 2010 01:35 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kianduatha (Post 729992)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator (Post 729823)
One more thing to add to the list of possible changes: Oceanian tritons really ought to have coral spears instead of regular spears imo. Its a flavor thing for the most part, but I think it also makes them a little more useful too.
What? It contradicts the flavor, if anything. Oceanian tritons would never stoop down so low as to use coral spears. Also, Oceanian tritons are pretty awesome as is. Turtle warriors, though...maybe they're okay having coral spears.
The graphic has Oceanian tritons wielding pink-tipped spears.

Trumanator February 5th, 2010 01:43 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by militarist (Post 729994)
I didn't mean it's not playable. Just much less games are in LA, less magic, less giants :). And if we don't say about Rleh and Ermor, is any other race became better there then EA and MA? Maybe it's wrong to generalise though, but when I think about northen-themed nations had much more taste in EA, less in MA, and lowest fun in LA. Also LA Agartha comes to mind.
Well the less magic, less giants thing is flavor, outside of CBM's purview.

As for nations that are better/just as good in LA as in EA or MA, here's my personal list of nations that I think are better in LA:

Aby
Ulm
Marignon
TC
Agartha
Ctis
Pan
Midgard
Utgard (than MA anyways)

kianduatha February 5th, 2010 02:47 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vfb (Post 730000)
The graphic has Oceanian tritons wielding pink-tipped spears.
That, my good sir, is bronze--it's orange, not pink.

vfb February 5th, 2010 04:08 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Oh! You are totally correct. I have checked it with the gimp, and booked an appointment with my optometrist.

Squirrelloid February 5th, 2010 06:31 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator (Post 730003)
As for nations that are better/just as good in LA as in EA or MA, here's my personal list of nations that I think are better in LA:

Aby
Ulm
Marignon
TC
Agartha
Ctis
Pan
Midgard
Utgard (than MA anyways)
Certainly agree with most of those. Utgard better than Jotunheim though, really?

Also, I wouldn't say LA Marignon is better than MA, so much as different.

And LA TC being better than MA is because LA TC is crazy good, whereas MA TC is just decent.

Tollund February 5th, 2010 11:15 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Certainly agree with most of those. Utgard better than Jotunheim though, really?
Seithkona are better then Vaetti hags, but Norna are probably a wash vs. Gyjga.

BigDaddy February 5th, 2010 11:45 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Maybe you could help Ulm by letting their smiths lead more clockwork horror or mechanical men... increase their leadership rating.

Sombre February 5th, 2010 12:54 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
That would make very little difference to anything. But I guess.

BigDaddy February 5th, 2010 02:12 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Could you give them more mechanical men per summon... That would help with the loss of fever fetishes, at least MA.

militarist February 5th, 2010 06:24 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
May be it's my personal impression. Though I like LA Pans as well, I agree.

kianduatha February 7th, 2010 09:57 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
As a flavor thing, shouldn't Jomon's Ryujin get H1? Their flavor text says that they have spread the dominion of the dragon king...but right now they have no way to spread dominion.

Also the Mighty Yari on Kaijin is currently a ranged weapon with ammunition 0.

Squirrelloid February 7th, 2010 02:45 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kianduatha (Post 730327)
As a flavor thing, shouldn't Jomon's Ryujin get H1? Their flavor text says that they have spread the dominion of the dragon king...but right now they have no way to spread dominion.

Also the Mighty Yari on Kaijin is currently a ranged weapon with ammunition 0.
If I have to guess, its because the description is using 'dominion' in the normal sense of the word. Which may mean the description should be changed, since it has a technical sense in dom3.

kianduatha February 7th, 2010 05:26 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I've been looking at Jomon recently, and I realized that CBM actually nerfs Samurai Archers--in the base game they're 11 gold(nerfed to 12), and they're 11 precision (nerfed to 10).

Now I realize that the gold cost is because they have the longbow(though aren't composite bows just as good? They're still 10 gold...), but baseline Jomon units have 11 precision because that's their tradeoff for only having 9 hp.

While we're at it...is there any pressing reason why Monks of the Fivefold Sign are so darn expensive?

rdonj February 8th, 2010 12:17 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kianduatha (Post 730327)
As a flavor thing, shouldn't Jomon's Ryujin get H1? Their flavor text says that they have spread the dominion of the dragon king...but right now they have no way to spread dominion.

Also the Mighty Yari on Kaijin is currently a ranged weapon with ammunition 0.
It could be a hidden dominion spread effect, like prophets get. I suspect this is the case, but I couldn't tell you for certain.

Trumanator February 8th, 2010 01:55 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Well giving them H levels would also have the useful effect of making them sacred, which is very useful on a 400g+ mage.

kianduatha February 8th, 2010 03:16 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdonj (Post 730419)
It could be a hidden dominion spread effect, like prophets get. I suspect this is the case, but I couldn't tell you for certain.
I thought so too, so I tested it. I made a game with just Jomon(Dom10) and LA Mictlan on Glory of the Gods, made a dozen Kaijin, and then flew them to the other side of the map to see if they had any effect on pristine neutral dominion. Nothing--not even a dozen of them over 15 turns. Then to check if it was a heretic-like effect, I tried them on Mictlan's dominion(which was completely static, seeming as I killed their god etc). Again, nothing. So unless my tests were somehow fundamentaly flawed, I think it's safe to say they have no crazy hidden domspread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator (Post 730420)
Well giving them H levels would also have the useful effect of making them sacred, which is very useful on a 400g+ mage.
Already sacred.

Lingchih February 8th, 2010 04:04 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Is not all this speculation pointless, since QM, the mod maker, is gone? Deal with CBM 1.6. It's the last CBM, and it is quite good.

vfb February 8th, 2010 04:14 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quit your drunken ramblings!

Burnsaber February 8th, 2010 04:26 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lingchih (Post 730453)
Is not all this speculation pointless, since QM, the mod maker, is gone?
Has thou not read the latets scriptures of the most divine source? Let me quote;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Priests, Propehts & Pretenders handbook, chapter 77, JK 10:6
And so, at the last day, the Quantum one shall return, wearing a crown of clams and wielding nerfs in his right hand and boosts in his left. And then, he will judge, and balance shall be had by all.

Sombre February 8th, 2010 08:09 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
qm is studying in the UK and taking a break from dom3. He'll probably return.

rdonj February 8th, 2010 01:49 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
I have just spoken to QM. He has left me with a divine mandate to carry on the great task that is the maintenance of the CBM. As my first act as usurper, er, I mean High Modder, I will gift all nations with the spell Summon Markata King for only 250 pearls each. The days of late game tartarian dominance are over. Long live the markata kings!

Fantomen February 8th, 2010 10:18 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6
 
While trying out MA oceania it occured to me that ichtycentaurs should have the standard hoof attack that other cavalry/centaurs already have.

That would be a nice and well needed boost I think.


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