Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

nah, i tried slingers... numbers just make it worse, the slingers can't get past even low level regen, while every rock hits and kills several slingers. And i am sure some had armour, i was being cranky about the no armour.

In my test game i built naked throwers for the first year but after that all armoured or at most 1 naked. The armoured largely don't get hurt from slingers. And it is easy enough to build pale one spearmen to attack slingers. They die to anything.

I also find that if you use enough boulder throwers in a single group the front rank does not throw but everyone behind does. And Agartha is uniquely suited to casting strength of earth at the start of every battle. Ouch.

Helheim might beat an incompetent Agartha player. Valks surround stone throwers, valks die but distract him. Helhird rides in and lances them. But easily countered with pale one blockers. Then rocks rain down on helhird.

Maybe a sauromatia player could beat them with arrows and light lances but sauromatian troops are expensive as far as human troops go, not sure.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Other things you can do: send in fliers on "attack archers". The fliers will die but will also kill a bunch of boulder throwers from friendly fire--as TNN you have great access to Call of the Winds, which gives you a bunch of convenient hawks to throw at him.

Also amusingly enough Ghost Wolves would be a nice counter in a desperation situation--ghost wolves trickle up to the blockers, causing boulders to be thrown which will damage the blockers too.

Have faith! The awesome thugs of TNN can handle those clumsy boulder throwers. ;) I ran a few quick tests of a Ri with a heros blade, silver hauberk, bracers and girdle of might with an E9N6 bless and scripted Bless-->Barkskin-->Mistform vs 36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless and the Ri won every time.

Usually mistform held up but even if it breaks you still have a chance since your body prot of 30 is going up against 12 damage from a strength of giants boosted boulder. Your head prot is 24 so you can forge a helmet if you want to boost that higher.

If you didn't go for an E9 bless you can make up for it by going with black steel armor and casting stone/ironskin instead of barkskin.

Usually brands are great weapons for glamoured thugs but in this case I'd lean towards a heros blade since it will one shot a giant and you want to kill them as quickly as possible to reduce the number of hits you take. The silver hauberk wasn't because air shield will help against the boulders but because it has good prot and low encumbrance, which means you'll have less fatigue post-buff. But you could certainly go with other heavy armors.

Note that this was a simple test where I just had the two sides fight - the main thing I was testing here was to see if the thug could survive sustained boulder fire. Depending on the blockers you're facing another option could be a snake bladder stick with an eye shield to take advantage of Agarthans only having one eye.

I'll also mention the really scary thing is Agartha's H3s. If you don't yet have access to MR boosting gear/spells sooner or later (probably sooner) smite will pop your mistform and the next smite may well kill the thug.

Btw, kianduatha's point about friendly fire is a good one. The same thing will happen if the thug is surrounded by enemies. Swarm can also be an effective way to cause friendly fire casualties.

PS - Cold blooded creatures suffer absurdly large penalties when operating in cold so leverage that as soon as possible.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Something odd must have happened when you fought as the boulder attack of the Agharatan stone thrower has a damage modifier of -16: their boulders do 8 damage per attack.

Tir Na Nog units have fairly high hit points at 13-14 each. Slingers have body protection of 6, and the sacreds 9. On average it should take about 4~ boulders to kill a slinger, 6~ to kill a sacred. The numbers are slanted such that the sacred should take 4 boulders if the stone throwers have strength of giants. If you use an equivalent defensive spells, protection, your sacreds get protection 17 - which is enough to weather even a large amount of boulders.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

This was year 2 on a small map, i simply did not have any of these things.

Ghost wolves is a good idea i should have thought of that, thanks.

I did try splitting slingers into 17 groups of 6 vs 30 throwers. That worked, Tir won, but this games worst point is the micromanagement, this tactic just makes it worse, and i simply have no interest in micromanaging myself to death to win a gamey battle.

Boulders do 1 damage on their own, i had no idea what boulder effect meant, but 8 damage you say. The kills come because it hits every unit in my square, 8 points each.

I had actually fiddled around with an earth 9 bless pre-game, it certainly helps both the Tuatha and Sidhe lords and Ri, but it did not seem like enough to justify it's cost. Out smarted myself there, it would have stopped the boulder damage.

thanks for all of the ideas, but i talked with my 2 friends who also play dom3 and they also feel that CBM is poorly balanced, so we are going back to vanilla.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Hum, sorry to hear that. You will easily find many many things in vanilla which are unbalanced on a far larger scale, if you look for them. QM (the previous and main author) and I have done our best to tune the balance in CBM and I think we're quite confident that it is significantly more balanced than vanilla, although there will always be quirks in a game like dom3.

The boulder throwers are meant to be a powerful feature of CBM Agartha, but I'm yet to be convinced that they are OP. The game is full of apparently OP things. Almost every nation has one. Elephants are a perfect example - if you build an army of ten or even twenty elephants you will probably feel invincible. But a competent opponent would quickly deal with them.

However the boulder throwers are a new thing to CBM (only made powerful in the last version), so it is possible that their balance is off. I am always happy to hear other opinions.

Actually EA Agartha definitely is overpowered in the current version, but it is its Darkness PD which turned out to be much more powerful than was foreseen. That will be fixed in the next version. I also made a mistake in giving MA Ulm a little bit too much of a boost, so it will be toned back too.

As for the boulders, their effects are a little obscure unfortunately. Actually they have two effects: a direct impact hit, and some splash damage. The direct impact is quite powerful (I forget how powerful), but only hits one target. The damage can be reduced by shields and armour, and I think Air Shield works. The splash damage is quite weak (8 damage, as Redeyes says), but it's true that it does add up and unarmored units like Slingers will quickly be wiped out.

So, the boulders are pretty powerful, but I don't think they're on the scale of, say, powerful sacreds. Fighting E9N9 blessed Niefel giants really would make you angry.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

No, i actually have found ways to fight Niefels, there will not be very many in the early game and you just need to keep them not moving and whittle them down. Extremely tough but i can see options, the problem i have with hurlers is that they are as cheap as they are and are doing more damage than Niefels at the moment.

I am a modder myself in other games, EU3 for one, and i see this all the time. A mod starts out small and focused and quickly grows out of control and incorporates many features beyond its original focus. I think it is great that you are making this mod but my friends and i feel that it is unbalanced at the moment. Worse than vanilla.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I went back and looked at the code just to check that I had the right numbers again.

What happens is: 1 primary attack that hits at 1 damage max.

1 attack following up the primary attack that can't be stopped with a shield that hits at 10 damage (34 total)

An attack that hits everyone in the square (still can't be parried with a shield) that hits at -16 damage (8 total).

I didn't think the 34 damage direct attack was as big as it was and perhaps it should be dialed back, but I'm not passing any judgement on it.

It looks like an ideal weapon to kill elite infantry like Tuatha Warriors anyway. The way the attack is setup with secondaryeffectalways to make it so it can't parried might also negate the glamour?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I am playing a SP EA agartha vanilla at the moment, to see what is wrong with them. 9 precision hurlers that do 30 some damage, easily buffable by earth strength. That is not bad. I gained some indie mages with air, and had one follow behind casting wind guide. I am not having many problems.

I would play vanilla EA Agartha before vanilla EA Arco any day. I know, Arco has advantages but they have many weaknesses in the early game that are hard to recover from. They are the biggest rush bait in the early game.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

The biggest difference is that vanilla stone hurlers' boulders are stopped by shields. The vanilla and cbm hurlers should perform fairly similarly until you run into elite infantry, like the Tuatha warriors you used.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

The trouble with shields in the base game is that the shields stop the boulders completely, which obviously doesn't feel right.

decourcy: Since I don't really agree with any of your observations about in-game balance there's not much to be said really. If you think Agarthan hurlers are tougher than E9N9 Niefels then I'm at a loss (though if you just meant that hurlers are tougher when played by the AI then that's fair enough; any balance discussion involving the AI is pretty much irrelevant I'm afraid since it doesn't know how to play). Sorry CBM isn't for you! I will bear your observations on the hurlers in mind though, if other players also report similar feelings.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

While I (and most everyone) agree that the micro is the great downside of this game I'm afraid that if you're not willing to put the 'work' in and finetune your battlefield placement and scripting to gain the biggest possible benefit from it you'll allways be at a disadvantage against someone who does, regardless of which units are brought to the table. There's just too many little tricks you can get an advantage from.

I have no opinion about the boulder throwers themselves since I have never used nor faced them, in vanilla nor CBM, but it seems to me that if careful use of a basic units like slingers solves your problem with them there isn't much to worry about, no? In any event a balance mod like CBM shouldn't be concerned about what the results are if you take "blob of unit A" and "Blob of unit B" and throw them at each other, but instead about what happens when you try to counter something the best way you know how.

Also I know I'm simplifying your argument to the absolute bare bones, just wanted to get my point across. As said, no opinion on the hurlers themselves.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I understand your point and blah blah blah, and don't get me wrong i am attempting to fine tune placements and orders and what not. But, when it comes down to it, i play games to have fun, and creating 17 groups of 6 slingers to have a chance against Agartha grenade throwers, that rapidly turns into not fun. If you have to be anal retentive and obsessive compulsive to enjoy this game, maybe it is not for me.

Llamabeast, you missed all of my points. I did not say that grenade throwers are better than Niefels, i said for the price they are better. Later in the game killing the grenade throwers is do-able, but as an early game rush Agartha can send out 4 or 5 grenade throwers for every 1 Niefel.

I have found that i can play BOTH sides SP, 2 player game, and do better with EA Agartha than EA Niefel in CBM. Um, to clarify, 2 player Tir vs Agartha, and then 2 player Tir vs Niefel.

In an early age fight between Agartha and Niefel in CBM, as Agartha i would have earth 6-9 and air 3 or so, maybe some nature for regen. In the early game if Niefel rushes you with frost giants it is going to be one fairly small group. Use your pretender in battle to cast wind guide and retreat. Use 3 small waves of glaive wielding pale ones to weaken and slow the Niefels, your fairly large number of rock throwers with wind guide go to town on the Niefels and you win.

Later in the game Niefels are even less of a threat to Agartha as you are using golems and undead against them. And any EA Agartha player that does not take heat 1 is an idiot.

So, yeah, i think FOR THE PRICE, niefels are not as good as grenade throwers in CBM

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Rereading my comment it looks slightly rude; sorry if it came across that way. I'll review the boulder throwers but I think I disagree with you.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

To enjoy the game, no; to do well in MP, yes. You can play SP and not have to deal with any of that or perhaps even play against like-minded human opponents but Amhazair summed it up perfectly: if you aren't willing to fine tune your placement/scripting you will be at a disadvantage against players who do, regardless of whether you play vanilla, CBM, or another mod.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

It might be appropriate to adjust the direct hit damage of the boulder slightly. In vanilla it was at 28 damage, now it's at 34 due to heightened strength and using another base weapon for it (with 10 instead of the old 10 damage.)

Other upgrades the boulder received is greater default range for the stone hurler, from 6 to 8, and it circumventing shields (as we have both repeated.)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Yes, Agarthan boulder throwers got better in a few key ways. Granted. Are they overpowered now, though? It would be nice to have better evidence than from a single player with little MP experience, especially as the traditional weakness of boulder throwers has been their susceptibility to clever scripting.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

And remember every Agartha player is going to use giant strength/strength of earth whatever. I noticed in my looking at SP vanilla Agartha, it is not just splash effect, they are better in every way.

Valerius, Don't think i am arguing with your good advice, i do spend a fair amount of time working placement, etc.
Also, i feel many players on here surrender to the demands of technique. I am an experienced gamer, and i win a fair amount concentrating on different elements of warfare.

We will see how i do in Smiting season.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

you could have armies of nothing but markata in SP and not have problems, this is meaningless

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Stone Hurlers have some preposterously big disadvantages.
The first one being terribly short range, meaning you can`t safely place them in any scenario and against any troops. Any sort of cavalry is just going to cut trough them as they can close the distance without the Hurlers firing.
The second one being their dreadful mushiness. There`s really no point in taking a bless for them either. Earth means nothing for archers and regen means nothing to monsters that can`t sustain themselves on the battlefield a few rounds for the regen to take effect.
And in the end they have no protection, no shield, no defense, so any combination of cannon fodder + archers will kill them.

They`re good and they have many uses now, but I doubt they need fixing. Besides, there are better nations with much better sacreds for the same gold ratio.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Well, in the other thread on Agartha I was pretty hardily lampooned.

I made the notes that the boulder throwers are very good.
Personally, I *like* the changes.

Is Agartha overpowered. Perhaps, although I never thought I'd say that. I really like the feel of the national buff (song of the mournful?)

I think the upcoming change to PD might be sufficient, to make them a simply relatively balance, interesting race to play. Agartha under CBM 1.9 can definitely surprise people. I think the idea of darkness is great, and I think your new proposal to implement it is good llama.

Mitigating against the stone throwers: you can take an AWEFUL lot of friendly fire casualties unless you find one of various ways to avoid.



[Aside: As an interesting mechanic, llama: I think the capital (and perhaps other cave citadels) should spawn darkness always.
Perhaps the way to do this is a free unit spawn (high protection, high mr, no slots, no movement, and diseased with 1 hp). Have this unit free cast darkness?

This way agartha would have darkness in its capitols (caves?) and yet could not move these units out to achieve darkness in other areas (as they die).]

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Admiral Aorta, Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don't want to start another fight, but if one more person on these forums sticks their nose in the air about SP entire populations of cicadas are going to disappear into this forum. Quit being snobs, it is uncool.

Aorta, SP is quite valuable because i can set up identical starting situations and see how one race does compared to another both in ease of expansion vs indeps, and in winning the game vs the ai players.

Also, another person said there is no hope for Agartha grenade throwers vs cavalry due to lack of armour... um, go one more space in their build list and build that unit, it is the grenade thrower with armour.

Again, i ran a test Agartha vs Helheim with me playing both, and Helheim certainly fared better than Tir but i was able to keep a positive ratio of gold cost of lost units vs Helheim as Agartha. Blessed 30 defense, glamored units die from 1 boulder.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Just please don't ask that CBM be balanced around SP in any form. It is directly counterproductive towards CBM's role and function.

Attempting to deal with the stone hurlers using high defense troops is always going to be a failing prospect, ranged weapons never care about the target's defense. This won't, and can't, be changed.

Using the worst possible matchup for a unit as a direct means of balancing it doesn't work.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I think I should just add that I think Single player is not a very good measurement for Value.

Single player is not like multi player. It's much different.

Just my two cents.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

They're not being snobbish. I'm sorry if you feel people are being rude - it's just that there's a many-year history of new players turning up and saying that some aspect of the game is broken and massively OP. It's the nature of dom3 - it's absolutely full of such things, but skilled players can counter all of them. So there is a tendency, when a new player comes along with such a statement, to assume it's another such case. And in that case the real answer is "sorry, the reason you think it's OP is because you're a new player, and in a year or so you won't think so". That's very rude I know, which is why I haven't previously said it explicitly, but having been on the forum almost six years it's hard not to think it.

Now, of course it could also be that you're absolutely right about the boulder throwers, and you have indeed sparked a debate on the other forum on the issue. Maybe I will make some changes and I appreciate you bringing the matter up.

On the other hand there are warning signs in the way you post which are causing people to doubt the worth of your points: you're quite aggressive, and you quote SP results (which frankly are worth nothing apart from the initial expansion against indies, where obviously they are useful), and you seem to be think that the OP nature of one unit might make CBM less balanced than vanilla. We could point out *many* units which are massively unbalanced in vanilla. I'm not claiming CBM is perfect and many players do prefer vanilla, which is fine of course. But still, Agarthan hurlers are definitely not huge in the grand scheme of things.

As for SP results being worthless: I can see that's annoying, but again there are very many units which are effectively invincible in SP. Equip and script an Eriu thug properly and he will live forever and kill thousands of AI troops. Lots of nations have powerful sacreds which properly blessed can wipe out AI nations without casualties. However these things are not OP because in multiplayer other players could handily counter them.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I`ll second what Llama said. Especially the sp part. Any testing done in sp means very little to nothing in mp, I think every vet is going to agree on this.

Even the armored ones are bad, protection vice I mean.
That`s a medium protection armor and they still don`t get a helm and no shield. They are still rather easy to kill, and their size is a another weakness too.
Hurlers are still going to die to the same amount of cavalry, gold vice.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Redeyes, thanks for the info on the damage of 34 on the primary boulder attack - missed that when quickly glancing at the mod file. That's certainly a lot more threatening than the 8, boosted to 12 with strength of giants, that I had mentioned. ;)

Having said that, my tests of thugged Ri vs. boulder throwers still hold true.

Decourcy, I thought it might be helpful if I posted my test files. You can run the attached save game both with an E9N6 bless and without it (using spells and magic items to get the necessary reinvig and regen).

My test results were as follows (ran 10 tests for each setup):

Ri with a heros blade, silver hauberk, bracers and girdle of might with an E9N6 bless and scripted Bless-->Barkskin-->Mistform
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
90% success rate (effective prot was 30 body, 24 head)

Ri with a heros blade, black plate armor, bracers and amulet of resilience scripted Air Shield-->Stoneskin-->Mistform and with a Tuatha Sorceress casting Regeneration and Soothing Song x 3 before retreating
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
90% success rate (effective prot was 31 body, 24 head)

Ri with a heros blade, black plate armor and amulet of resilience scripted Air Shield-->Stoneskin-->Mistform and with a Tuatha Sorceress casting Regeneration and Soothing Song x 3 before retreating
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
80% success rate (effective prot was 29 body, 24 head)

A few comments:

* I was purely testing thug vs. boulder throwers. Obviously a smiting H3 knocking off mistform will cause things to go south quickly.

* I had air shield scripted on tests two and three to mimic the silver hauberk from the first test but you could probably dispense with this (but I'm too lazy to run the test again without it ;)). Also, the AI will cast armor of achilles (and of course a player might script it) so even though I didn't bother equipping the thug with a helmet you might want to do so since sometimes his armored was destroyed dropping his head prot to 15 IIRC.

* TNN is vulnerable early on and needs some research in order to really start becoming effective. They are not Mictlan, who can lean on cheap, powerful troops from the beginning of the game. The traditional openings are Alt./Constr. for thugging and Evo. for thunderstrike. I generally go for thugs first because I like the flexibility they offer (more than ever with the current CBM) but both approaches have their uses and it depends on the opposition you're facing.

* With the current CBM there is more of a case than ever to go with a light bless rather than a full E9. But I do recommend at least E4N4. Thugging is an important aspect of this nation (and a very fun one at that). A light bless will save on gem costs and you'll get your money's worth out of it. If you really don't want to do that then at least get an N4 bless since regen gear is more expensive than reinvig gear and it lets you spread your forging costs over different gem types instead of having it focused in N (though this may not be the ideal situation for it you will typically be forging a lot of N shields and rainbow armor is also excellent).

* Advertising message: Doh! I really need to pay more attention to what mods I've got loaded when I run test games. So I recommend everyone check out GFSnl's Dystopia mod - you'll need it in order to open this save game. :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

craptacular, i was looking at the E9 bless and its effect on Tuatha infantry, which was not terribly effective, especially since they are still vulnerable to armour of achilles.
Thugs certainly did better.

The one problem with this example is you are giving Tir E9. Well, if they have E9 give Agartha N9 or F9. What will happen then?

Llama, i am sorry if i seem aggressive to you.

I, and my friends, are still going back to vanilla. Again, there are many great features to CBM, but also many poorly thought out features.

I don't want a fight or to anger you, i was just expressing my opinion. And i know thugs can stomp AIs and
are easily stoppable by humans, i am not saying anything about that. All i said was that i feel that CBM EA agartha is now overpowered, to the point that i have no interest in CBM.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

No, in tests two and three I didn't cast bless and did everything with spells and magic items. It will cost you more gems and require more mages and more research in order to get the same effect - but you can do it without any bless.

But one important note: air shield is key since it will deflect the primary 34 point damage attack. I ran 10 tests without air shield and in each case the Ri lost. Typically mistform stayed up but the accumulated 1 HP damage from the boulders caused him to be wounded more quickly than regeneration could compensate for and this would cause him to rout.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I wonder why air shield works on the 34 point attack but a physical shield doesn't? That is one those things i am going to need to learn. There is a lot in this game to study.

I hadn't tested air shield since Llama said the 34 point attack was not stopped by shields. (?) or was it just the 8 point splashes?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

No worries at all, decourcy. Honestly I think I managed to come across as a bit of an arse myself in this thread - I'm sorry about that. I normally make it a priority to be welcoming to new players. I just got a bit frustrated.

The isn't-affected-by-a-shield thing is a really weird quirk. Basically normally all single-target missile weapons can be stopped by shields, and all AOE weapons completely ignore shields. However when a single-target missile weapon is stopped by a shield it is stopped 100% - even a hide shield is completely effective at stopping boulders in vanilla. Sombre found some quirk where a particular weapon number (which I think is a different boulder, maybe from a fortress or something) breaks the normal rule and bypasses shields. So he and qm modified the normal boulders to use the same weapon number and hence also bypass shields.

So to summarise: the direct hit ignores shields, but is basically the only single target missile weapon in the game to do so. The AOE also bypasses shields, but that is standard behaviour.

Of course the preferred behaviour would have been for the direct hit to have its damage reduced by shields, but not completely stopped. Unfortunately that's not possible. The new behaviour seems preferable to the vanilla behaviour, where for example troops with Tower Shields were almost completely invulnerable to boulder throwers.

By the way decourcy, if you are interested in mods but aren't a fan of CBM, take a look at the Expanded Nations Packs linked in my signature (they're mostly not by me). Some of the new nations are pretty awesome. Generally they have as much content as the richest of the vanilla nations.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

We are already using a bunch of the expanded nations. One friend wants to play an all Warhammer game, but i am waiting for dark elves!

So i can blame sombre for the whole 'shield thing'? :)

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

If we can drop hyperbole: you shouldn't blame anyone. Next time you'll know that shields do not stop boulders and can adjust your strategy accordingly.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

You can indeed credit Sombre. :)

I think you may be waiting years for Dark Elves... unless you want to make them yourself, of course.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Thanks Dad, i mean redeyes....

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

No I'm being realistic. Everyone else has already told you, but SP is only good for testing expansion. It has no bearing on balance because the AI cannot counter things that players can. Also if you dislike some of CBM's changes so much why not make a mod of your own? Dom3 modding is not difficult or particularly time consuming apart from making sprites, and that's outside the scope of what you'd be doing anyway.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

See, this is why i am confused about being called 'aggressive'... Why are you so angry Aorta? Did someone step on your clique?

I may mod Dom3 as i said i am an experienced modder, but i have not played enough to know what needs to be modded. Maybe some day.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

lol at your posts, you're not experienced enough to mod the game but are totally experienced enough to tell others how they should mod it. cool

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

What other games did you mod btw? (Just so me and my other high school girls can stalk you further. Not to check if you are a good modder or not ;P ).

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I saw there was some discussion on Dom3mods regarding the forge bonuses for glamour nations and I wanted to add my thoughts. I've now had the chance to play TNN/Eriu a few times and EA Van once (not yet gotten to MA Van). I haven't changed my opinion about cheap gear being important to the thug focused glamour nations (especially to TNN/Eriu where it's a central aspect of the nations and one that I am obviously very intent on preserving). But I have to be honest in that I figured the forge bonus would be limited to cap only units so I was (pleasantly :p) surprised when Bean Sidhe gained a forge bonus along with Tuatha Sorceresses.

I guess the first question is, have the changes turned out to be OP? I would say (mostly) not. IMO TNN is a mid-ranking power in the EA - certainly not among the top tier of nations. They have an effective midgame but given the level of competition they can't count on excelling during that phase of the game to the degree Eriu can. Eriu is now one of the top midgame powers in the MA. Late game they still fade but based on the potential of their midgame I'd consider them an above average MA nation. Van is a different story - they are back in the blood game in a big way. As mentioned, I've only played one game with EA Van but it did confirm my suspicion that a 50% chance of B2 is better than a dousing bonus would have been since not only can you blood hunt somewhat cost effectively but you now have non-cap B2 mages - which makes a big difference in using battlefield blood magic outside of a sabbath and, like any non-cap unit, it scales. On top of that, Vanjarls are 40 gold cheaper. So while it's true I've only played one game with Van, and haven't noticed them posting a string of victories like MA Ulm, I think they can certainly take the hit of dropping dwarven smith's forge bonus to 15%. Likewise, I think Eriu can get by with just a 5% bonus on the Bean Sidhe. TNN is probably least deserving of taking a hit but they'll still have a 15% bonus on their cap only mages.

I do think gameplay should be the most important consideration in changes so if, at least in the case of TNN/Eriu, the nations aren't OP why make them? It's mainly to preserve Ulm's niche as the nation that can build a forge economy based on having the largest forge bonus and having it on recruit everywhere mages.

So, I'd like to propose a modification of iRFNA's 5% forge bonus suggestion:

Bean Sidhe: forge bonus from 15% --> 5%
Tuatha Sorceress: keeps 15% forge bonus
Dwarven Smith/Svartalf: 25% --> 15% forge bonus
Dwarf Elder: 25% forge bonus (note that unit currently has no bonus)

Some of the things I like about these changes:

* Preserves effective 20% discount for TNN/Eriu on the 5 gem items that are the bread and butter of thugging but limits to Ulm the ability to create a forge economy based on recruit everywhere mages.

* Cap only mages have more of a forge bonus but you'd have to make decisions as to how to allocate your limited numbers of these mages (and even if they are devoted to forging they can't match Ulm's discount).

* I think the progression from the skilled crafting of the Bean Sidhe to the mastery of the powerful Tuatha Sorceresses is a nice one. By the time the MA rolls around the Tuatha Sorceresses have left the scene and Eriu only has a 5% forge bonus to work with.

* Despite CBM improving them, Dwarf Elder heros are still kind of underwhelming (I always find myself wishing I'd gotten one of the glamoured heroes). Giving them a 25% forge bonus while reducing the smith bonus to 15% both fits in nicely (they are more skilled than their peers) and makes getting them very worthwhile.


On a different note, the guaranteed E pick on Ri has made them much more appealing than before (previously they were mainly useful if you needed a thug before you got your second fort built) but once you have the ability to forge earth boots you'll almost completely switch to Tuatha Sorceresses since with E boots they can match the E magic of Ri and they otherwise have better magic. I'd like to suggest giving Ri a base of A2E1N2 instead of A2E1N1. Tuatha Sorceresses still win out as being a better choice based on their superior A magic, forge bonus and the useful ability to use a crystal shield (so you can have divine blessing casters where needed) but it makes the Ri a bit more appealing.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Do the forge bonuses really need changing? I don't really understand the objection to the current values.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Based on the most important criteria - game balance - no, I don't think they need changing. I don't think it's just my affection for TNN/Eriu that is coloring my opinion that they are not OP. As far as Van goes, I suspect MA Van or maybe Helheim (neither of which I've played under 1.92) are the strongest of the bunch but I haven't heard complaints about them being OP.

My thoughts were basically prompted when it occured to me that starting with 10 gem items bean sidhe could forge items cheaper than other nations could and still make a profit in trade. And since they are recruit everywhere you wouldn't have to make any tough decisions as to how to use them. It seemed like this infringed a bit on Ulm's territory and I thought this was a compromise - keep the forge bonus to facilitate thugging but reduce it to the point where you can't really use it to make a profit in trade.

I gather iRFNA thought the 25% forge bonus on dwarfs/svartalfs was too much. Generally speaking, I think some people think glamour nations shouldn't have a forge bonus at all. Obviously I don't share that opinion and think a forge bonus is important (and not unthematic) to TNN/Eriu in particular but at the same time I'm fine with the non-cap forge bonus being small and mainly benefiting 5 gem magic items.

Leaving things as-is is fine in terms of balance and just adds a new aspect to the nations in terms of them having the ability develop an "Ulm light" forge economy. I was mainly thinking in terms of not infringing on Ulm's angle of having a forge economy.

Also, my comments are just along the lines of fine-tuning - the nations themselves are the most fun and interesting versions yet of TNN and especially Eriu (which had more significant changes). :)


On the topic of making Dwarf Elders more interesting, any chance of changing the extra E pick CBM gave them to a 50-100% random pick?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

There's been much discussion of the zmey but I wanted to add my thoughts since I've been thinking about them recently. They can be quite a pain to deal with but the particularly thing that prompts me is I'm tired of seeing wars begin with each side launching their squadrons of zmey at each other. I want more variety! :p

I think there's a few things that contribute to their frequency. First, they are close to an optimal use of F gems. Aside from their fellow EDM summons, the Ember Lord and the (unique) firebird, I believe the entire list of F summons is fire drakes, scorpion beasts, summer lions and fire snakes. These aren't horrible summons and in fact the fire snake used to be quite a popular summon and was the big loser in the zmey's rise to prominence. But something that's notable about the list is the lack of any commander, let alone mage, summons. Compare that to its opposite element of water (a path that I think has a fairly comparable usage patter in terms of forging and spellcasting) where you have several mage commanders as well as troops that have a variety of situationally useful abilities such as amphibious, cold aura, recuperation, awe, regeneration, high HP, magic weapons.

Later on, you'll presumably be able to summon ember lords and you might think at that point you'll start seeing fewer zmey but I'm not sure if that's the case because of the second, and more important, point: namely that zmey are best in class in their raiding category. Because of that there's a strong case to keep using your F gems to summon zmey and use other paths to summon SCs, despite the fact that Ember Lords are excellent units.

There are some nations (glamour nations come to mind) that will still find it cheaper to use other units for raiding but for many nations you won't be able to beat the cost/utility of zmey (and even raiding capable nations may find zmey a useful supplement to their own units). Compare the cost of a zmey with a minimally equipped bane lord with flying boots and a frost brand. The bane lord is far more vulnerable for almost the same cost as the zmey. And of course if he's killed, your opponent may well recover some of his equipment. Don't like the bane lord example? Feel free to substitute another unit but I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with something that has the toughness and crowd clearing capability of the zmey for the same price point. Your best bet may well be the zmey's fellow EDM summon, shishis. Unlike the zmey they can cloud trapeze into enemy territory but they lack flight so once there they can't jump around like zmey. But I think even in this comparison the zmey comes out ahead because of their toughness (including multiple lives) and large AOE attack. It's also worth noting that A gems have a different usage pattern. I frequently play A nations and the last thing I want to do is spend A gems on summons given their value for fueling cloud trapeze and battefield magic. I think F nations wouldn't have the same hesitation using F gems for zmey.

Another advantage of zmey over shishis is their synergy with lychantropos' amulet (disclaimer: I despise this item ;)). You will likely want your shishi's to cast some buffs, particularly mistform. The zmey has no such need, making it a perfect candidate for the lych. amulet. Not only do you get regen at half the normal price but being berserk removes an angle of attack that could otherwise be used against you. Sure, there might be times when you'd prefer to hold back before attacking but overall this item is a perfect fit for zmey. If no other changes were made to zmey I'd advocate making lych. am 10 gems just because I've come to identify them so much with zmey.

I gather zmey will likely receive a price increase and be harder to summon and this can definitely help but I think it's also worth keeping in mind ways to promote other units as situationally useful raiders.

Calahan suggested removing their misc slots and I think that would neatly solve the problem. If that's too drastic you could reduce them to 1 misc slot. So they could still choose to equip a lych. amulet but since it would be an irrevocable decision there might be more hesitation to do so. In any case, with 0/1 misc slots it would no longer be possible to make them immune to all elements.

Another possibility is making them slow flyers that only have map move 2. This would encourage using other units to penetrate deeper into enemy territory.

Basically I think there's a value in keeping them as first class raiders - but not necessarily in most situations, as they are now.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

One of the few things with about as much flexibility for the cost as a Zmey is an Iron Angel under Forge of Ulm.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Pythium has come up in a couple of recent conversations which reminded me that I wanted to ask if it would be reasonable to nerf MA Pythium's starting gem income. I understand that it's thematic that Pythium represents a height of magical power but the EA is considered more magical than the MA and this is represented by a 1 gem higher starting gem income. Three gems higher than their peers seems like overkill (especially considering they are far from a weak nation to begin with).

This is hardly a new situation so if it has been suggested in a previous CBM thread and rejected please ignore.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Ok, so I don't expect this suggestion to be taken seriously but I've thinking about reconciling blood magic costs with gem based costs and it occured to me what if they used the same metric and non-unique blood summons cost gems, not slaves? Because so many blood summons are cross path it would be easy to assign the appropriate gem type for most of them. Then you could ask, for instance, how many E gems is a demon knight worth compared to the other available E summons? For single path cases like fiends of darkness you could have a couple of versions of the spell using different gem types to keep the spell available to most/all blood nations. Ritual of the five gates maybe just go with S gems (probably do the same for send horror even though it's not a summon).

National blood spells could take the same approach, generally matching single path blood spells with that nation's dominant paths.

Added bonus: reduced micro since you'd only have to blood hunt to the extent of fueling battlefield magic, blood sacrificing and summoning uniques. Sure, blood nations would have to pay "real money" for their summons but OTOH they'd have some extra gold from not hunting quite as many provinces. Though if they did keep hunting to the same degree it would be interesting to see how that translated to additional power on the battlefield (more life for a life casters, etc.)

And yes, they likely wouldn't have the gem income to mass the numbers of blood summons they have now, but that just puts them on the same footing with non-blood nations. ;)

Like I said, I'm not seriously suggesting this as a CBM change but maybe one day I'll run an experimental game with these settings. :p

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

I would price most troop blood summons as being worth 2 gems.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

What for? Just to nerf all blood powerhouses to the level of pre-CBM EA Agartha?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Isn't the question mostly something like "just for fun?" I mean, the suggestion is anti-good and the gem cost system has a large dose of arbitrary already (why does ghosts initially cost 4 death gems when you get a troll for 1 earth?) No blood summons seems more like a house-rule for specific games than anything else.

I don't know why you figure blood nations would be close-to-useless (I figure that's what you were describing when comparing it to old Agharta) even without blood summons, some of them still have large enough strengths to go around.

Comparing blood summons to the others isn't easily done either, as you can usually get a lot more blood summons from a province than you can get other summons, even as things are now. At 2 gems I compare the blood summons to the individuals summons others get. I think blood deserves a reduction in the amount of units it allows you to field, but different strokes and all that, some people seem to not just bother with setting up decent-sized parallel blood economies.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92
 

Why in CBM thread then?