Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I've made a couple of organizational changes to the website. "Features" used to be the opening page for "Treknology" - which is now just the TNG tech list. I've also added/changed entries on the tech list as I've been editing the components.txt file. "Features" also has a little blurb about mounts and systems & planets have been separated.

Oh yeah, I changed the buttons too.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I noticed that both the Borg and the Romulans are green. You could always use a magenta like color to represent the rommies instead. That would work because that seems to be the color of choice for their computer displays anyway. It would reduce any initial confusion. Just a thought. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ December 05, 2002, 17:56: Message edited by: Kevin Arisa ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's true. However, the Romulans darker green is quite easily distinguished from the Borg's bright green on the game map - moreso than the website leads on. But thanks for the suggestion!

On another note, I have been messing around with some of the stellar manipulation technologies. I have made the Graviton Beam smaller (50kT) and less expensive but with a modified maintainence cost and increased supply usage. The Transwarp Conduit Generator has been increased in size to 1000kT and supply usage increased, and the price reduced. For most races, this means the Transwarp Conduit Generator will have to be placed on a base, except for the Borg who can still place them on their larger Cubes and Spheres. In general, most of the destructive stellar manipulation technologies are more readily usable, as it seems to be easier to destroy things in Star Trek than create them.

Side note: Why is it that some of the Posts in this thread extend beyond the normal margins???

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Any race using a color you have trouble seeing can be changed on your own computer by editing the race's &ltraceName&gt_Main.bmp .

I try to use a color from the race's flag, myself.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Instead of studying for exams, I came up with a couple of Romulan designs:
http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/...n-dderidex.gifD'Deridex http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/...an-khazara.gifKhazara
http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/...an-tomalak.gifTomalak http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/...an-kestral.gifKestral

Ignore some of duplicated textures as I was lazy and reused some for the new ships. I'll fix them up later. The Kestral is a conjectural design I came up with as a forerunner to the much larger D'Deridex Warbird. The Tomalak and Khazara (modified from previous Version) represent newer Romulan designs that are the forerunners to the upcoming Valdore in Nemesis - which I'll be making next for the Romulans.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

very nice

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

The Romulan empire color should stay dark green. To me, purple doesn't say Romulan (it says Centauri, but that is for a different mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You do realize that emissive abilities do not stack, right? These small levels of emissive ability are pretty useless.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You do realize that emissive abilities do not stack, right? These small levels of emissive ability are pretty useless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily my friend. These are the earliest level of emissive armors that co-exist with lower weapons that cause between 10-25 damage, so the emissive rates are around 30%.

[ December 06, 2002, 01:53: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Here is an image comparing the sizes of a D'Deridex Warbird with a Khazara Warbird and a Federation Galaxy Class starship.
http://members.rogers.com/capt-kwok/.../size-comp.gif
The Galaxy Class ship can fit entirely within the open area of the Romulan D'Deridex Warbird.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Great pics Kwok! I'm really looking forward to your mod.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Kwok, you are a master. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I know your mod will be the mod to have for SEIV.

I can only imagine how much work you have put into this mod. It boggles my mind to think of all the finer things that one must do just to make a simple mod, and here you are, making a masterful mod such as this.

Mod making has a down side. Here it is, 3 am, and look who's all up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif RL just doesn't seem all that important when your on a role doing something you enjoy doing.

Please keep up the great work, your mod is going to be a wonderful thing once your finished. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

God the depth of your mod is incredibly impressive. How you find the time to do it amazes me.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Thanks Will.

Remember, it has been 6 months since I started the mod with a little break in the middle. When I first started this thing in July, I thought I'd be at Version 2 by now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Once exams are over next week, I'll actually have some real time (minus work, of course) to put into the mod.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You do realize that emissive abilities do not stack, right? These small levels of emissive ability are pretty useless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily my friend. These are the earliest level of emissive armors that co-exist with lower weapons that cause between 10-25 damage, so the emissive rates are around 30%.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not the 1, 2 or 3 emissive levels.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I guess one on one with other fighters it would be ok, but against a ship it would suck. I think I'll change the mini to 2kT and double it's emissiveness - if such a word exists.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Remember, too, that fighter Groups' weapons stack if they are identical - so if you have a Mini Laser that does 3 damage and a stack of 10 fighters armed with 1 Mini Laser each, then it will do a net 28 damage to a ship with an emissive rating of 2 - NOT 10 damage as if the shots were separate! (However, if each fighter had a different weapon...)

Also, as of v1.78, the emissive ability doesn't work on units in the first place... do you have foreknowledge of that being fixed??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Units can't use emissive armor? Perhaps that would explain why their isn't a small Version in regular SE:IV. Hmm.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, there is, but Small Emissive Armor is restricted to Fighters and Troops. (In "classic" SE IV, it could be put on Drones, too, except Drones weren't implemented until Gold.)

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Capnq:

Thanks. I checked the regular components.txt file afterwards and saw it there. I knew I remembered it! I'll just double its size.

[ December 08, 2002, 17:28: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Beep Beep

Incoming Transmission...

There are only three days of examinations to go before I get the opportunity to get some serious work done on the TNG mod. Just hang in there!

End Transmission

Kssssshhh

[ December 10, 2002, 17:33: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Hwy Kwok, your images are great. Do you think you could put some tutorials on the mod page describing how you made the graphics?

[ December 10, 2002, 21:19: Message edited by: Urendi Maleldil ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure, I'll try to put something together. I'm also making some changes to the current "Starship" section. Look for that update on Saturday.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Greetings.

I'm just looking for some feedback regarding what to do with the AIs - since I'll be tackling those soon.

Would you prefer the AIs to be as competative as possible forsaking some of the race's attributes, or should I design the AI to play as you would expect them in the Star Trek universe (i.e., Federation peaceful, Klingons Agressive, ship designs not always combat based, etc) - well what do you think?

I'm leaning towards the second option.

Look for an update to the site by Saturday Afternoon. I've made some changes to the starship section that I'll be uploading soon.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I think the first option is the best. Because if you encounter a race in the second option, the Federation will always respond the same, so will the other races. The playability of the mod will be severly hampered. I say let every computer react like any other AI so far. No "real" Star Trek behaviour.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

You could create two Versions of the races (Trek and Competitive), or just start a PBW RP game.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm - the first option would be even worse for that. They will always be out to get you! However, if you create a nice set of anger files for each race - you can have them be good allies sometimes and if you double cross them, colonize claimed systems - look out!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't think the second option won't be competative...it will be fairly close. It's just a matter of specifying good design files that are called upon in certain states, like defense!

For example:

You have met the Federation. They are friendly and offer a trade treaty and for several years this works out. The Federation is in an exploration or other non-defensive state so they build mostly exploration ships and explore the galaxy, etc. However, you are bad. You attack a couple of their colonies! Their anger file is set to respond poorly to such an event. The Federation goes into a defensive state and begins building warships.

Look out, here comes the Defiant!

It will take lots of time to tweak the files to be at this level, but that is what I'm referring to when I say "character-based".

However, some players might exploit this feature, so that it is less competitive than the first option.

[ December 12, 2002, 21:01: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I definitly think that the races should behave like who they are supposed to be. I mean, whats the point in having Star Trek races that behave nothing like what they are supposed to? It would be like just changing the images of existing races so that they would look like star trek. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif The second option is really the only option. I want sneaky, backstabbing romulans, agressive but honorable klingons, greeeedy ferengi, etc.
Just my 2 cents. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I agree, it will be far more "realistic" with definite 'personalities' for each race. The stock races have personalities too, just not as extreme as say the Romulans (nasty back-stabbing spies!) or the Klingons (blood thirsty at it's best, but I'm not sure how the honourable thing will be worked out). The fact that we all know what their personalities are will make them more predicatable, and yes there will be the possibility of taking advantage of some of these predicatabilities, but isn't that what happens in real life anyway? Everyone knows how Russia, the US, China, Japan, etc will respond in any given situation, but that doesn't make it any easier on you when they show up with some tanks!

Just my thoughts on this highly anticipated mod.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Hmm... Jimbob, that was a very good piece of text. Good examples taken from real live. I appreciate that.
Oki, you got me convinced. But I hope the characters (races) won't be too predictable, that would spoil the whole fun.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I think that Star Trek suffers from a lot of 'racial generalization'. The most 'realistic' interpretation of the Star Trek 'races' are in TOS, in my opionion. TNG, DS9, VOY really seemed to polarize the different cultures in Star Trek, making them all being irrationally 2 dimensional with only OCCASIONAL divergents from the path (i.e., when that Starfleet officer tried a military coup in DS9).

In TOS, the Klingons were much more reasonable people then in the 1990's Star Trek universe. They were 'warmongerish', but accepted peace, and were more 'realistic' (i.e., not TOTALLY warmongering) as they appear later.

The Romulans in TOS were a lot like the Klingons in TNG+. They were honourable, and had to rely a lot on discipline and bravery to make up for technological disparity.

I never liked how the later Star Trek series dictated an almost absolute description for each empire. They became almost too predictable in later series.

One voyager episode (one of the few that I have seen) comes to mind. It had to do with accessing a Cardassian medical individual's information by the hologram doctor. Many people said that he was a war criminal, and others defended him. However, of course he WAS a war criminal, primarily because he was a CARDASSIAN! It would have made for a much better episode had this doctor been unfairly 'erased' by an irrate Bajoran crewman for things that he did not do, but it was much easier to make him fit the Cardassian mold.

It was only at the end of DS9 when some of these 'races' broke their mould. Cardassians proved they were honourable, Klingons became rational, Romulans became more open and less Vulcan-like.

In a way, Star Trek 'races' accurately match our PERCEPTION of other cultures (i.e., how we PERCIEVE the USSR, Communist China, and even the United States). However, the reality is, is that none of these perceptions are/were real. Russians were not like the Klingons, Chinese not like the Romulans, and Americans not like the Federation. It is a falacy to believe that cultures are reflective of a singular perception.

TOS had more realistic cultures.

Federation = Generally peaceful, but will engage in occasional Wars of Agression and a history and present blotted with problems.

Klingons = Generally warlike, but will not go to war if it is irrational (i.e., making peace in Star Trek VI, the one TOS episode where Klingons and Federation were controlled by a being and made to fight eachother with swords where they made peace, the Tribble episode where Klingons and Federation can actually sit in the same bar and not KILL eachoter)

Romulans = Honourable, emotional yet intelligent. Due to technology disparities they had to rely on high discipline and sneaky tactics, hence the development of a cloaking device.

So, I see 'real' Star Trek 'races' to be ALL based off of a similar model (like all cultures) but with different 'cliques'. Some are more geared toward one aspect then others, but this did not consume them completely. However, they are not TOTALLY diriven toward that goal (i.e., Klingons only think of war, Ferrengi only of money, Federation only of peace, Cardassians only of cruelty, etc...,).

This mod will be based off of the TNG universe, but I really don't believe that it is necessarily a FAIR universe. TNG is VERY biased toward the Federation being everything to emulate, while all of the other races are extremely corrupt in some aspect. I think in order to get a Star Trek feel to the game, as well as a well balanced game, is to use TOS-like cultures and 'races' over that of TNG/DS9/VOY cultures.

Otherwise, the predictability becomes ovewhelming, knowing that the Federation will almost never get into a friendly posture with the Romulans.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

What would be really cool is if the Ferengi built a lot of various units and ships and then constantly nagged the other races to trade money (resources) for them. It would be kinda funny if you were running out of troops and you just contact the Ferengi and buy 300 of theirs! I don't know how that would work but if it did it would add some racial flavor to the Ferengi. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Major Tom:

I disagree with almost all of your points.

The Original Series, while groundbreaking for its time, was for the most part crappy aside from a handful of good episodes. The depiction of most alien cultures included a scantily clad women whom Kirk would be enamoured with. I don't think it was until the original movies that Star Trek became a lot better.

Let's discuss about races being portrayed:

Klingons

Klingons in the TOS were hardly unique compared to the variety of Klingons presented in the later series. In TOS, they were all one dimensional, wanting to destroy the Federation, and it was only the intervention by some "superior" race that they made peace. In TNG and later, you have Klingons of all types, honourable warriros like Worf and Martok, nasties like the Duras Family, some in the middle ground. The acts of the Empire were sometimes for peace and sometimes for war depending on the need of the Empire.

Romulans

The Romulans in TOS were decent, but hardly conclusive since we only saw them a few times. In TNG and later, we had Romulans of all kinds - some they wanted to destroy, others who wanted peace, some wanting reunification. Some honourable and some not. In fact, at the end of DS9, it was looking like the Federation and Romulans might have seen the start of better relations.

Cardassians

The Cardassians were portrayed in many different lights as well. Some were plain bad like Dukat, some felt bad about the occupation, others were more honourable, some were not. There were a lot of good Cardassian characters that did not fall into stereotypes. The Voyager episode you referred to you must not watched carefully. It wasn't because he was Cardassian, but because he had experimented with Bajoran subjects during the occupation in his research a la Nazis and Japanese in WWII. Big difference, eh?

I think the later series did a lot better job with avoiding stereotypes and addressing racial issues on many, many occassions. I'm not sure how much of the later episodes you have seen, but it is certainly there!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I am most eagerly anticipating this mod!

Just a quick question, and I hope you don't think I'm picking nits (although I probably am). Didn't the Genesis Device more or less terraform an existing planet (i.e. convert the atmosphere to breathable), rather than create one from asteroids? I wonder if that would be possible to do with SEIV. Apologies if this has been discussed before. It would be neat if that were possible, though. Just bomb a planet into breathability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
EDIT: of course it would probably have to be ridiculously expensive... but still cool

[ December 14, 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Actually, the Genesis device took a nebula and made it into a star system.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. The genesis device (created by Dr. Caroline Marcus (I think)) creates an atmosphear, Flora and fauna, water, and everything else from a barren planetoid or other harsh conditions.

It is delivered in torpedo form.

The bad thing about the genesis device was that if used on an inhabited planet, it would reform everything, even the people/animals already living on the planet in an instant.

Edit: Grammatical errors... Not enough Sleep this week...

Another edit: Oh! Now I know what Captain Kwok is talking about: yes, the Genesis device can create a star and a planet from a nebula, where the Mutara nebula was turned into the Mutara Sector, complete with sun and the Genesis planet, after it was detonated in the nebula.

[ December 14, 2002, 20:33: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Now I'll have to go watch the movie again. Oh darn.

Anyway, in the game, is it possible to mod a one shot planet breathablizer weapon?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

No, it is not. You could have it destroy and build planets. So it would blow it up, then reform it on the next turn. Simulates the effect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You may be right. I tried creating a stellar manip compenent as follows, but it doesn't do anything. I would like to know why exactly it doesn't work, though. Anyone know why?

From Abilities.txt:
Planet - Change Atmosphere
Value1 = Number of turns until atmosphere is changed.
Value2 = (It changes to the atmosphere breathable by the majority of the population.)

I created this component:
Name := Genesis Device
Description := Create breathable atmosphere on planet. Component is destroyed on use.
Pic Num := 40
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 100
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 200
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 500
Restrictions := None
General Group := Stellar Manipulation
Family := 1000
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Stellar Manipulation
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Change Atmosphere
Ability 1 Descr := Change to Breathable Atmosphere.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Component Destroyed On Use
Ability 2 Descr := Component is destroyed after use.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

EDIT: It doesn't give any errors, but the ship just sits there over the planet, and Stellar Manipulation button remains greyed out. Oh well.

[ December 14, 2002, 20:28: Message edited by: DarkHorse ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

TerranC:
My mistake - it's intended to work the way you described - but in the movie, it happened when it was detonated on the Reliant in the nebula.

Anyways, I think I will keep the device as is in the mod, as a normal planet from asteroids thing.

I was supposed to update the site this afternoon, but it seems I won't have the time today thanks to my party, but tomorrow for sure!

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

The ability in question will only work on a -facility-, not a component.

Phoenix-D

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was hoping it would work, as the Abilities.txt file doesn't specifically say it's for facilities only (some of the abilities do). But, apparently, that is the case. Rats.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Okay, I give up. The Subspace Listening Post listed under facilities says it defeats corresponding level of Active Cloak. How did you do this with a facility? I can't get the sensor level to work on a facility, nor can I find any other ability that would do this. What am I missing?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I haven't actually tried out this facility as I thought it would work fine. I swear I remembered someone else mentioning that it would. Hmm...perhaps I'll test it out later.

I'm still working on the website update. It's taking a little bit longer than I thought.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I've updated the starship section on the website with a new format. Look for more ships in the next couple of weeks!

[ December 18, 2002, 05:47: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

I have a beef with the Fed ships:

Mind you, I'm all for the idea that the Galaxy should be larger than a sovereign (In fact, I endorsed it, I think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) but a nebula class bigger than a sovereign?

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Yes Sir!

The Nebula class should even be larger than the 800kT size I used if the Galaxy is 1000kT. It is essentially the Galaxy class with the secondary hull under the saucer, only missing the volume of the dorsal connector, which is almost made up by the volume of the upper pod.

The Sovereign will be fine! It will have a specialized weapons mount to dish out trouble to any baddie.

[ December 18, 2002, 03:50: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

A preview of additional information I'll be adding later this week:

Features: Intelligence & Events
* Most of the intelligence operations will focus on ships, sabotage, maps, etc, rather than the game disrupting operations like communications mimic and puppet political parties.
*A slew of new events have been added, including many variations of similar events with different effects.

Treknology:
* I need to update the list on the website to reflect the current data files.

Starships:
* The Sovereign class and Klingon Bird of Prey models are done, but need some textures.

There is also a new book out called Star Trek: Star Charts. It's quite informative with all sorts of information - including things like how ships seem to get places faster than they should! It should also help to re-creating a really good and accurate map for a future project connected to the mod.

[ December 18, 2002, 06:43: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Will each race be given different shuttle designs? For example, the Federation would have Type 6, Type 9, Delta Flyer, Tac Fighter, Argo(right name?), etc. The rommies could have their scorpion attack craft. It would be a lot of fun to have a variety in the types of shuttles you can have. Certain ones could have special weapon mounts like the Delta Flyer. This is something I would definitly love to see.

Re: *** Star Trek Mod Discussion ***
 

Each race has its own ship sizes, including smaller vehicles like shuttles or fighters. In general, most races will have 2 or 3 small vehicle designs, except the Borg who have none. I'll post more about this issue when I decide on actual designs for each race. At the moment for the Federation, I am considering a shuttle, runabout, and Peregrine class fighter for their small vehicles.