.com.unity Forums - SE4 Stock Balance Mod

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- Space Empires: IV & V (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

- - SE4 Stock Balance Mod (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=9987)

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Hmm, I'm a newbie so I acknowledge that my opinions don't carry too much weight, but here they are anyway:

1) It seems to me that we need to decide early so whether or not we are willing to allow the changes to be so drastic as to require rewriting the stock AI. Is it even feasible / realistic / practical to consider only changes that don't require any rewriting of the stock AI?

2) I disagree with the suggestion that we can ignore AI issues on the basis that everyone on this forum plays PBW. If we want this to be considered stock SEIV we had better consider stock AI issues.

3) If AIs are going to be changed at all, I think it would be good if they could rewritten to be the best AI they could possibly be.

4) With regards to the balancing of missiles, how come no one suggested upping the seekers' damage resistance?

P.S. Why isn't TDM included in stock SEIV in the first place? Makes me skeptical about MM accepting a balance mod as stock.

[ July 24, 2003, 05:11: Message edited by: deccan ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by deccan:
P.S. Why isn't TDM included in stock SEIV in the first place? Makes me skeptical about MM accepting a balance mod as stock.

Because TDM is fan made, and was made after SEIV was released. (I assume you mean Vanilla SEIV, not SEIV Gold when you said Stock SEIV.)

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by mac5732:
In regards to ftrs, how about increasing their capacity/size, in order to put more shields & armor on them at least at the med and large levels, thus making them somewhat stronger to take out?

This isn't a bad idea. You would have to increase the cargo capacity of Fighter Bays accordingly. Cargo Bays may then need a tiny tweak as well.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Regarding PPB, I hadn't thought about the range before Pvk. ... Actually decreaseing the range of the early levels might be a decent solution. ... This would definetly make them less powerful in the mid game where they currently dominate without neutering them at the end game.

Actually, this would have practically no impact at all on the mid game, since reasearching up to level 4 is only a matter of four turns, the actual research is negligible.

If range was decreased as suggested and research cost drastically increased (like to 50k for level 1) then you might see some mid-game impact. But changing the research cost by that much is probably problematic for ai designs.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
...After a little digging I think the problem here is not as serious as we thought. The stock Norak AI has a call for combat sensors..., but being that the custom AI's are not as high a priority for this as teh stock AI it's not a deal breaker I don't think...

Oh, I didn't realize that we are talking stock AI only here. It wasn't clear from SJ's orginal post:

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The three objectives:
To maintain compatibility with existing AIs 

To improve the balance of the game, and increase the effective number of strategic options. 

To make as small of a change as possible to the stock game.

Nevermind then.

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
EDIT: Although it appears that the UF specifically do not have the design call for combat sensors. I am not sure for the reason behind this,... The custom AI's can always be revised. It's not uncommon for this to need done after a new patch anyway.

Well, the reason behind this is quite simple. The UF doesn't use combat sensors. It changes combat tactics during the game. Pre-Talisman: seekers and ramming; Talisman: direct fire.
While I agree that custom AI can be (and sometimes must be) revised, it is a different issue whether this is done after an official patch or to accomodate a mod. Don't expect to have all the AI modders jump through the hoops that you present for them.

change of topic:
----------------

Here is another proposal for PPB. Similar to Geo's, but with range reduction. Btw, this is copied from the DevnullMod data files. I consider this quite balanced.

Research Cost: 10k
Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 40 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

A severe increase in research cost like 50k, is going way overboard IMHO.

just my 0.02
Rollo

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by TerranC:
Because TDM is fan made, and was made after SEIV was released. (I assume you mean Vanilla SEIV, not SEIV Gold when you said Stock SEIV.)

Actually, I meant SEIV Gold, as in, why weren't the improved TDM AIs incorporated into stock AIs in official MM patches.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by deccan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TerranC:
Because TDM is fan made, and was made after SEIV was released. (I assume you mean Vanilla SEIV, not SEIV Gold when you said Stock SEIV.)

Actually, I meant SEIV Gold, as in, why weren't the improved TDM AIs incorporated into stock AIs in official MM patches.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe noone asked? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I have no idea. This whole idea may not have a chance of getting added as stock. But if it's not done it for sure wont have a chance.

Geoschmo

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
Oh, I didn't realize that we are talking stock AI only here. It wasn't clear from SJ's orginal post:

To be fair you may have understood SJ perfectly. He and I don't neccesarily agree 100% on every point. One of purposes of this discussion is to try and formulate consensus and compromise on issues where people don't agree totally.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
Here is another proposal for PPB. Similar to Geo's, but with range reduction. Btw, this is copied from the DevnullMod data files. I consider this quite balanced.

Ok, that's not the first time I have mentioned something that turns out to have been in the Devnull Mod. I really did help you with that mod didn't I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Obviously my memory stinks.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 13:07: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
After a little digging I think the problem here is not as serious as we thought. The stock Norak AI has a call for combat sensors. This makes sense as you wouldn't want the ships at a severe disadvantage prior to the discovery of the talisman. If we make the talisman a more powerful Version of the combat sensors it will still be used on their designs. It will simply be placed on the ship through a different design call. We won't even have to make a change to the files. The call for the always hit ability will simply be ignored since there will be no component that can satisfy it.

Um. If it's a simple thing like making sure the AI uses both regular combat sensors AND the Talisman ... wouldn't it be possible to simply include updated AI for the stock races, with the balance mod ... ?

That'd work WRT the QR, as well.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Pax:
Um. If it's a simple thing like making sure the AI uses both regular combat sensors AND the Talisman ... wouldn't it be possible to simply include updated AI for the stock races, with the balance mod ... ?

That'd work WRT the QR, as well.

You could, but would you need to? The point of my comment that you quoted is that the stock AI's would work quite well with no changes at all. At least for these two changes.

Geoschmo