Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Kwok, congadulations with version 1.0. The A.I is garrisoning warp points and its colonies much better than before.

Is it possibe to tweak the AI so that its fleets stay more upto date? In one game Im playing the AI maintaind a large fleet at a warp point, however it did not keep its ships uptodate. I was basicaly using advanced temporal weaponry whilst they employed at best early depleted uranium cannons (often there might be only a single missile or cannon on a AI frigate or destroyer).

As for treaties, I have noticed in both version 1.00 games that Im playing that they are easy to maintain. Once Ive got a treaty going with the AI they seem reluctant to ever break it. Is this deliberate?

All in all the AI is becoming more chalenging. Thanks for the work your putting in.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The AI's behaviour primarily depends on what you do to them. If you're nice and don't make them angrier (like colonizing their space or destroying their ships) it's unlikely most of the neutral or peaceful races will attack. The aggressive AIs are easier to antagonize and will break treaties.

For the v1.01 patch I've told the AI to retrofit more ships at once - that should help with out of date ships.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Which are the races that should show an aggressive behaviour?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Massive Ship Mount
Number Of Abilities := 4

Typo?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Reading another thread about making individual ships more distinctive I got an idea about one way to achieve it, combat speeds. Making smaller ships faster in combat and larger ships slower encourages more mixed fleet set-ups and causes the smaller ships to retain their value into the later game.

Attached is a zip with two modded files, VehicleSizes and CompEnhancements (added a little increased range to ship mounts to offset the slowdown of the larger ships.)

I've had a blast playtesting with these changes and thought I'd share. However, since all I have done is a minor modification of the Balance Mod I don't think it would be right to release this as a separate mod (not my work and all) so I thought I would just put the two files out there for folks to look at and play around with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

One more suggestion: in version 1.0 it makes no difference in ship speed if you go from the highest level of ion engines to the first level of contra-terrene engines.
That seems a little odd to me. I understand that you wanted to make the speed increase more gradually but still there should be a clear effect IMO if you use the more advanced type of engines.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The Contra-Terrene Engine is an improvement over the level 3 Ion Engine, which is the branch point for the CT series. Although a level 5 Ion Engine is equivalent in movepoint production to a level 2 CT Engine, it's also a dead end tech and really intended as a economical engine for non-combat ships.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I'm just plugging a Balance Mod game setup on pbw.

SEV Galactic Domination

Starting resources: 10000
Starting planets: 3
Home planet value: Average
Score display: allied
Technology level: Low
Racial points: 2000
Quadrant type: Cluster
Quadrant size: Very Large (200 sectors)
Event frequency: Low
Event severity: Low
Technology cost: High
Victory conditions: Last Man / Alliance standing
Maximum units: 20000
Maximum ships: 20000
Computer players: None
Other game settings:

No Star destroyers / black hole creators
No Warp point creation / destruction
No Ancient Race allowed

I'm open to other suggestions regarding rules / game setup

I'd like to have turns coming in once a day for a little while, then as the game expands slow things down, once we have really large empires I'm receptive to extending the turn time past 48hrs.

I'm planning to wait for the next patch and whatever changes in the balance mod go along with it.

And Kwok, Awesome work! I’m really impressed with how much time you've put into this thing!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

wait till next version of se5 comes out yoda

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Do you mean the next patch? Because that is the current plan.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

yeah, I should have read your post properly I guess.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I was trying to start a game with only myself and a friend as the only true empires, but with many neutral races. For some reason, even after editing the settings file, and starting many new games, only 5 neutral races were produced.


Edit: It appears this is the case in stock 1.17 as well. I'm sure before this it was possible to have many more neutral races.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Kwok,

Can you incorporate some of the new races or shipsets into your mod?

(Ngath and Arackterra) The ones Fryon posted a link about.

I have them on my site for easy download. http://hosted.filefront.com/lacyj3aolcom

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The patch is out... 1.20...

Any idea how long until the Balance mod update?

Thanks,

Javaslinger

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

When I get home from work? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Oh no! You mean you work??? ack... I shouldn't have patched yet... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

BTW, please help with my other message.. there must be a way to cancel a surrender message before you hit end turn right???

There must be.... it only makes sense...

Javaslinger

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I got it.....on my link.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Version 1.01 of the Balance Mod is available.

You can grab it here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

Nothing really special about this version other than it works with SE:V v1.20 and fixes a few other items. Note mines are currently always visible - which is a current SE:V bug I think - so it's really for the future. Basically your place mines will improve their cloak ability somewhat automatically.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Version 1.01 (18 December 2006)
-------------------------------

1. Fixed - Error with AI design for Small Crystalline Fighters
2. Fixed - Error in maximum number of engines for Small Organic Freighter
3. Fixed - Error in supply storage amount for Quantum Engines
4. Fixed - Point-Defense Weapons did not have troops as a valid target type
5. Changed - Increased sight range for Basic Sensors
6. Changed - Existing Mines automatically increase in cloak ability based partly on level of Mines tech area
7. Updated - Settings.txt with new entry from SE:V v1.20
8. Changed - AI will now retrofit more ships at once
9. Updated - AI Scripts
</pre><hr />

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Oops. I accidently left in the SoundEffects.txt file from Tampa_Gamer's sound effects mod!

I've updated the .zip here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/BalanceModv101.zip

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Was getting ready to post about the error that was causing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Tampa_Gamer has provided an updated Tech Chart for the mod:
http://www.captainkwok.net/files/Bal..._TechChart.pdf

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Thanks for your hard work Kwok.

An amusing thing happened with the AI. I haven't played since 1.13, uninstalled the game, installed it anew, patched to 1.20 , installed the Balance Mod v1.01 and started a new game. In the first neighbouring sector I have explored I bumped on the Zholhuk protectorate. (btw, when a race description says "[..] has prevented them from developing interstellar travel", is it safe to assume that the race is a "neutral" one?).

Turn 1 I send them a general message. Next turn they reply with a treaty proposal with just one clause - non-aggression in neutral systems. Grats, this is a huge improvement over the random half-dozen clauses we used to receive.

Now, I am not satisfied with this, he has some green planets and I have to try and fool him into letting me colonize planets in his system. So I send him first a counter-proposal with just one clause, non-aggression in all systems.

Next turn he replies with TWO messages. First a counter-counter-proposal where he insists in having non-aggression in neutral systems only, which makes sense. And another with a new treaty proposal with one clause: allow colonization in each other systems. So, this behaviour (sending a counter-proposal together with a new proposal) is still in. Also, if the race description is correct, and depending on what "interstellar travel" means (if it means "moving between stars", as in "use jumpgates") he can't even jump into my any of my systems, and shouldn't even bother with a clause like that. And since the only system he knows and can travel to is his, he shouldn't also have the notion of a 'neutral system' to propose a non-aggression in.

Now, I of course have accepted his second treaty proposal about colonization, and he went from indifferent to displeased http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. So now I am supposed to be able to colonize planets in his system without driving him nuts, but have already pissed him off by just signing a treaty that he proposed, AND still have no non-aggression treaty. Logically the former shouldn't go without the latter, we'll see how it evolves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Why does the AI in that situation remind me of a number of world leaders?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Yummy, Thanks Tampa_Gamer!

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I'd prefer if several of the AI empires were inclined to war regardless of if they'd been insulted or not. I.e. sort of like the Kra'hen race from Imperium Galactica 2; no diplomacy, just pure troublemakers. As it is I'm always getting spammed with treaty proposals; I'm not even bothering responding to them anymore.

Even with the Empires see all systems( i.e. no fog of war) option on, the one empire I'm at war with hasn't launched a single attack yet the 30 or so turns we've been at war. Not sure how much one can do to alter this, though.

Now that the AI's units are automatically placed around warp points when combat is initiated, they could use a huge boost to satellite production and deployment. To my experience the most they use is 4-5 satellites on a few of their colonies( way too few at any rate) and usually none at warp points.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

An A.I empire that is at war with everybody, is just a weak A.I empire that will die early game.The Kra'hen were superpowered in IG2, ie cheating A.I.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

AIs shouldn't be at war with everyone, but there should be some that just plain decide they feel like having some more territory one day, then attack one of their neighbours without provokation.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Some things I've noticed so far.. playing with 1.20 and BM 1.01 .

I am miles ahead in planets and research. I left all of my planets defenseless essentially with no units... lost one planet. I simply was never attacked.

I was playing on Med amount of AI's (8) and no neutrals. Highest difficultly with Med bonuses....

4 of the AI's all offered me treaties immediately. 3 others that I met later, after I was way ahead, would not join into a treaty with me.

The AI ship designs that I have run across are way behind me.

Some positives.. I got annihilated by minefields by one race... whoops...

Another AI seems to have quite the well defended homeworld and core systems. Haven't scratched the paint yet. But their ships are pathetic...

I have only run into a a very few fleets from any AI's... In fact maybe 2 fleets on 6 ships or more...

Weird thing, I came across a planet with 2 light carriers.. but no fighters to be found.... planet based or otherwise.

Still I'm having a blase, played 12 hours until 6am.. ouch...

But the AI is just no agressive enough. If I can leave my systems wide upon without fear I will be able to race ahead in development by ignoring the threat. Which is exactly what I did.

Any human player would have noticed this and raped me...

Just my observations for your continuing work.

Thanks again and I LOVE the BM!

Javaslinger

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

It seems to me that most of the AIs get upset when any ships move through their systems. So their going from indifferent to displeased more likely has to do with your ship in the system, especially if it is still there.

In a game I have going currently, I have a single colony in two differnet neutral races systems, as long as I don't move any ships through the system, they seem content, but if a single one of my ships rears it's head they get a little uppity, they don't seem to care about the colonies though, or the sttilites and mines I've placed around them.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I seem to remember for SEIII or SEIV (or both) that there were frequent AI competitions. People wrote an AI, and then all the AIs were submitted and pitted against eachother in a no-humans game.

Am I confused? Do we not have any AI writers anymore?

It would be a very cool thing if this were to happen again, and I'd be willing to pitch in a donation/prize for first, second, third... and something super duper special for last place http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Give it some time. SEV's only been out a few months, and the AI scripts are a hell of a lot more complex and flexible than SEIV.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Before that can be done Aaron needs to fix the hard-coded issue with AIs and fog of war.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

v1.20, BM 1.01, 2nd new game. Discovered 10 AIs in the first game, but gave up when I got 10x the research of the next best race around turn 70. Started the 2ng game on Hard and Max bonuses, discovered 4 races so far at turn 40.

I like the new behaviour. Every race has offered me some kind treaty on the first or second turn after we found each other. And it usually either has a non-aggression in all systems clause or it is negotiable with 1-2 counter-proposals.

Now, I often get, on the same turn, a treaty proposal together with a counter-proposal to my own proposal. Not sure if the drop of mood I sometimes see after I only choose one of these is attributable to me not answering one of these proposals. Just to make sure I don't propose treaties on the first 3 turns after discovering a new race, they send their offer soon enough.

Also, I don't know if it's moddable, but I am still getting some weird proposals. Oh, far from the totally random ones I used to receive back in the 1.13 days, but still. For instance, is it possible to make sure that the AI proposes (and accepts) treaties that contain "both empires share resupply" and "both empires share repairs" only if bundled with the "non-aggression in all systems" clause? Because I am sometimes receiving the share supply/repair offers bundled with the "non-aggression in neutral space" clause which does not make sense.

I have tried accepting one, mostly since it came with the population migration clause. And sure enough, the sharing clause does not supersede the non-aggression clause, i.e. I still can't peacefully reach his planets to resupply.

Also, a bit besides the point, but the addition of pop migration to SE5 together with the AI's eagerness to sign treaties actually makes the game trivial (yes, even more trivial). Sign migration treaties with 2-4 races that breath a different atmosphere and voilà, most of the planets you can colonize can be undomed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. In SE4 one used to fight and conquer other races then micromanage populations with freighters in order to achieve the same result http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. But please do not use this to make it harder for people to sign migration treaties.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Does the AI play better if you remove the fog of war? I like the concept but I'll give it up if the AI has a better chance against me.

Also regarding the weak AI - they don't seem to build many WP or garrison their colonies. Or at least not enough to matter.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The A.I seems to garrison its colonies after they build facilities.I would've thought the A.I should build some defence first.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Well, the AI is harmless with fog of war on, i.e. there's like no chance at all he'll actually wipe the player out however badly one plays. With fog of war he's still far from aggresive, but it's alot better.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I'm putting together v1.02 - and besides a more aggressive AI - is there anything else you guys would like to see?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Though question since I don't exactly know what is feasible and what's not.

I'm in my 2nd game with 1.20 + BM 1.01. The first one, on normal difficulty settings was canceled at around turn 70, when I reached 160K research compared to the 15K for the guy in 2nd place. In my current game, also near turn 70, I am at 83K, the next best one is at around 50K, but only because this time there are no civs that breath hydrogen, and half the planets in my sectors have this atmosphere. Anyways, both times the AI hasn't been aggressive so far, allowing me to expand nicely without me even having a single ship for defense.

Now, I am not sure the AI needs to be made more aggressive. I mean it's not 'natural' or 'realistic' to start a war with another race that you've just discovered just for the sake of it. Only if you need to grow but have nowhere to go. What I am seeing is the AI fighting each other when there still are a few unpopulated systems around them. I think that this AI growth issue needs to be resolved before they are made simply more aggressive.

As for the treaties, I would like a total rewrite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. It doesn't make sense to have one single big treaty per race, we should have separate negotiable clauses. If I have trade + non-aggression and want to add migration, I shouldn't have to re-negotiate the whole treaty. As when a country wants to sign the Kyoto protocol, they don't have to re-negotiate the Geneva Convention, nuclear proliferation nor a 200-years-old peace treaty. Now I bet this is not feasible with a mod, but it costs nothing to ask.
To compensate, maybe there is a way to have the AI propose and much more eagerly accept changes in treaties that only have one clause added, changed or removed?

As for the treaty clauses I'd like to see some of them be either linked or implied. As I've posted before, it does not make sense to have for instance "both empires share resupply" without at least "non-aggression in all systems". Either the AI should not propose nor accept such a treaty, or the acceptance of the "both empires share resupply" clause should imply non-aggression even without the non-aggression clause being explicitly stated (but I believe the latter is more of an engine issue).

Also, non-aggression, either in neutral or colony space, should come with "share minefield codes", in either neutral or colony space respectively. IMO we should get rid of the minefield clause altogether and use our non-aggression clauses to deal with mines, as in SEIV. It made more sense. For the 3 people that play against humans and can think of some clever strategies using separate clauses for non-aggression and minefields we may have a toggle, maybe? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Its seems the AI is rather reluctant to sign treaties with high trade percentages. I don't see the reason why, higher percentages = more free money. It's not like the weaker one is losing anything, nor like his trade has a huge impact on the stronger one. And BTW, how does the game figure out which empire is the weaker one? Total score?

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The largest medium fighter has 30kT space and the next research level gives a large fighter with 32kT space. But as this large fighter needs two more engines of 2kT each to have the same speed as the medium fighter you better stick with the medium fighter.
I would suggest that you just keep the engines per move relation for the fighters constant.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Unfortunately units still can't be retrofitted which was the assumption when the fighter sizes were made. Something will have to be done though.

---

I wasn't talking about making the AI blindly aggressive, just simpler things like attacking non-treaty ships in their space or following through on attacks during war.

---

You can just proposes changes to your treaty to change individual stipulations... the AI's willingness to accept certain clauses will depend on it's mood towards your empire. One area that probably needs to be improved is the AI initiating positive changes to its treaties in times of good relations.

I've made a few small changes for matching certain stipulations together, so hopefully you'll see less awkward combinations.

The AIs will start out with lower percentages in trade, so if you make an effort to keep them happy with your empire, you'll be able to earn more trade income. If the AI has a low bonus to start, then the trade really favors the player so it can't just be a freebie.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

It's not only about that type of aggresiveness: even when the AI is in war with someone, he'll never really attack. That needs to be sorted out.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

I agree Raapys. The only attacks I've ever received from the AI players have been when I have colonised within their home system, and they attack to remove my new colonies. Neutral races have done this to me too. I've never seen an AI player send ships against my colonies in a system that only I own.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

The A.I needs to remember what planets other races own so they can attack.I can only remember because I write the details in system notes,the A.I can't.

This can only be fixed by Aarons programming it.I would think this a major priority for the next patch.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

That's because they are not aware of them.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Of course it can. It DOES know where you are whether you want it or not, it has the whole game engine and planets database to find you. The same code that allows you to filter planets in the Alt-P window by your/enemy/allies. Now whether the AI can make good use of this information is another issue.

I've been meaning to ask this for some time: how do I go about keeping the AI happy? I've been trying to send them general messages just to keep in touch, trying to stay away from their system, but sooner than later they go from amiable to displeased as I grow stronger, they usually drop down two notches as I pass them in the Comparisons window. I can't even imagine how to make an alliance, and if I manage to sucker some into one in the very early game, they should start hating me by turn 100 anyway.

Re: Balance Mod Improvements
 

It's planet list works the same as any player - if they don't have current sensor coverage, then it doesn't know who owns the planet. Furthermore, it creates a list of its potential attack locations each turn, and again if it doesn't have current sensor coverage then it forgets the planet as a target.

Re: Balance Mod Available for SE:V
 

Some races should be inheritly more aggresive than others , so where one race would accept a treaty another , brcause of it's xenophillia would accept trade with every intent on breaking it or not accept at all because of it genetic , socialogical makeup

Re: Balance Mod Improvements
 

You mean it doesn't cheat even a little by lifting the fog of war even on the hardest setting? And then it cannot make plans that span more than one turn? I've always thought it did and was expecting some cunning attacks from him, now I wish I didn't know how it really works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Balance Mod Improvements
 

There's no cheating by the AI.

Re: Balance Mod Improvements
 

Unless you give it bonus or mod a cheat, of course. In my case I modded in a high-stealth level free sensor unit, giving the AI permanent vision of any system it enters. I'm working on an event that will spread them through -all- the systems.