Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would not say *a lot more*. Check previous polls about the habits of players.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From your poll Pocus:

I always play alone with AI only 44% (18)
I sometime play with a friend 24% (10)
I play most of the time in multi players 17% (7)
I nearly always play MP, and SP is just for testbeds&pratices 15% (6)

I sometime play with my friend means that they are playing single mostly, and sometimes multi, if I am correct.

Anyways if you compare:

I always play alone with AI only 44% (18) >>> I nearly always play MP, and SP is just for testbeds&pratices 15% (6)

And yes, I am a singleplayer 'fan' myself.

[ October 16, 2003, 12:06: Message edited by: Particle ]

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not a fair comparison: it's a lot easier to set an SP game up, therefore most MPers also play a lot SP, while the reverse isn't true. You should include the following line

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in your stats to get a correct assessment of the MP community.

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not a fair comparison: it's a lot easier to set an SP game up, therefore most MPers also play a lot SP, while the reverse isn't true. You should include the following line

Quote:

I play most of the time in multi players 17% (7)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in your stats to get a correct
assessment of the MP community.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, that is still 26 [single] vs 13 [multi]! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Back to diplomacy now!
Check out this screenshot from from the upcoming, awesome game, Knights of Honor [I cant wait for this one btw, it will be an incredible strategy game, more info about KoH: http://www.knights-of-honor.net/ .]

The diplo screenie:

http://www.knights-of-honor.net/gfx/...r_koh_0038.jpg

We need a diplo model like this. Relationship with the AI, pacts etc.

[ October 16, 2003, 12:37: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not a fair comparison: it's a lot easier to set an SP game up, therefore most MPers also play a lot SP, while the reverse isn't true. You should include the following line

Quote:

I play most of the time in multi players 17% (7)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in your stats to get a correct
assessment of the MP community.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, that is still 26 [single] vs 13 [multi]! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Back to diplomacy now!
Check out this screenshot from from the upcoming, awesome game, Knights of Honor [I cant wait for this one btw, it will be an incredible strategy game, more info about KoH: http://www.knights-of-honor.net/ .]

The diplo screenie:

http://www.knights-of-honor.net/gfx/...r_koh_0038.jpg

We need a diplo model like this. Relationship with the AI, pacts etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WOW THAT GAME LOOKS AMAZING! Hey, that diplomacy screenshot is cool, I love that relationship bar + the diplomatic options. Er where is the alliance button? There will be no alliance in that game?

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would not say *a lot more*. Check previous polls about the habits of players.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From your poll Pocus:

I always play alone with AI only 44% (18)
I sometime play with a friend 24% (10)
I play most of the time in multi players 17% (7)
I nearly always play MP, and SP is just for testbeds&pratices 15% (6)

I sometime play with my friend means that they are playing single mostly, and sometimes multi, if I am correct.

Anyways if you compare:

I always play alone with AI only 44% (18) >>> I nearly always play MP, and SP is just for testbeds&pratices 15% (6)

And yes, I am a singleplayer 'fan' myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">if I count right, 32% (rounded to a third) play mostly MP then. So what are the MP fans asking : they are asking for features which serve the SP fans too : diplomacy (works for the AI too), less micromanagement (I suppose you would enjoy this in SP too, nobody like to handle 100 mages with a bad interface), and game balance (same thing here, even if you play with yourself, I suppose you want the game to be balanced).

So no need to oppose MP players versus SP players, we converge toward having a better game.

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmmmmm this looks good. That game will be decent. What is the release date of it?

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

Sorry, double post.

[ October 16, 2003, 12:57: Message edited by: -Storm- ]

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

Ok here is my idea:

We need a relationship bar. That way we will be able to see the relations with the other nations. Also there should be a a huge table with all relations. IE. between AI A and AI F, or between AI B and AI G, etc.

Basic options should be:

Send gold
Send magic gems
Transfer / Give unit(s)
Transfer / Give province(s)

Basic hostile options

Demand gold
Demand magic gems
Demand provinces

Diplomatic options

Right of Passage / Passage Agreement
Trade Embargo
Non Agression Pact
Alliance (against)
Total Alliance

All actions will raise / lower the relationship between the nations. Basic Options will raise the relationship, any hostile actions & basic hostile options will lower it.

Hostile actions what will lower the relationship:

-Sending spies

-Attacking a nation whose relations with the 'target' is good. [No alliance or any diplo relations between them, just good relationship!]IE. You want good relations with AI A. The relations between AI A and AI B is very good. You are attacking AI B.
Your relations with AI A will be decreased, greatly.

-Casting any hostile spells. This should work like the above one, IE. You want good relations with AI A. The relations between AI A and AI B is very good. You are casting some hostile spells against AI B.
Your relations with AI A will be decreased.

-Attacking a nation should lower the relations to -100. Also lets say that you attacked AI A.
There was an alliance between AI A, AI B and AI C.
Your relations should be -100 with AI A, AI B and AI C after the attack.

The relationship bar is quite simple, the max is 100, the min is -100. 100 is the best, -100 is the worst.

Now about the abuse. If you are sending lot of gold/giving away units etc, will increase your relations for sure. If you call that abusing, than we wont have a good diplo AI in any games EVER
Just think what happened in history. The various empires always used this way to improve their relations with other Kingdoms/Empires. This is supposed to work like this.

[ October 17, 2003, 13:21: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

I wasn't entirely serious, but if you want to try to think up a diplomatic AI I don't mind.

As I said we need a simple yet brilliant system. You give suggestions on options and diplomatic actions that lower or increases the relations. These can be added later, when there is a system that works.

Instead try to figure out how relationships are measured, how they change, when the AI makes war, how to react to stronger/weaker players, how to measure other players stance against each other (is it better to gang up on one player?), does the AI have a long memory (and what does it remember) or does it only have a current relationship measure (very abusable) etc.


We will never implement giving troops away.

Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 

Theres alot of programming in that previous suggestion. Before we see anything close to that maybe we could suggest some simpler fixes we might actualy see soon. The best would be simple additions to re-action formulas which might already be in the game. Stuff with no menu.

Im with others that the diplomacy which existed in MP games was plenty. In fact, almost too much. We had to develop ways of doing games to make diplomacy harder to use. And yes I was A-#1 hacker who used the Dom 1 diplomatic options ALOT!

Anyway, one of the places where the solo game falls far short of the MP game is in the area of diplomacy. Maybe the "formula experts" (we had some of those in the newsgroup discussions) could come up with ways to add a simple variable or two to the logic.

Dom 1 seemed to have some logic to its decisions of whether or not to attack you. There is a formula in there somewhere and aparently a variable which kept track of whether or not you were an enemy. Do gifts give pluses the way attacking them gives minuses? Can they?