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- - Recruitable Unit Rebalance Version 7.51 Released. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=22861)

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete!

Ulm is your fav PvK? I'm not sure how. I've been practicing with them a bit these past few days to get ready for the MP game with SC's mod. And I forsee myself getting utterly crushed, even if a low-magic rule is selected :}

Also, I wanted to reiterate:

Light Cavalry should have thier bows swapped out for javelins. Messing with precision, cost, etc, won't help when mounted bowmen (without appropriate tactical commands) are inferior in every way to un-mounted bowmen.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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Ironhawk said:
Also, I wanted to reiterate:

Light Cavalry should have thier bows swapped out for javelins. Messing with precision, cost, etc, won't help when mounted bowmen (without appropriate tactical commands) are inferior in every way to un-mounted bowmen.

The standard indie LC already have a javelin variant, I don't know what the point of throwing out the shortbow ones would be.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

Do they? I'd never seen those hmm.

Well the idea behind throwing out the shortbow one is that there is no use for them. No matter how you tweak thier precision, cost, etc, etc. Are you telling me you are going to buy them as is? Even with SCs mod? What would you use them for?

My point was just that, in reality, mounted archers are(were) an incredible thing. They could move into range fast, shoot the enemy and then move away just as fast. Constantly killing the enemy while staying out of range themselves. But dom2 provides no tactical options for this. "Fire and Flee" would be optimal for these purposes if it didnt break up your units into a handful of provs like a rout. You could buy 20 LC and just sit them in the path of an attacking army and they would shoot at them and flee every game turn...

But we all know that Fire and Flee doesnt work. So then I am looking at the LC and seeing no place for it, no reason to recruit. And I thought to myself that giving them all javs would be - at the very least - more effective than having a unit which is no better than a traditional bowman, but costs more and consumes more supplies.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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Ironhawk said:
Do they? I'd never seen those hmm.

Well the idea behind throwing out the shortbow one is that there is no use for them. No matter how you tweak thier precision, cost, etc, etc. Are you telling me you are going to buy them as is? Even with SCs mod? What would you use them for?

My point was just that, in reality, mounted archers are(were) an incredible thing. They could move into range fast, shoot the enemy and then move away just as fast. Constantly killing the enemy while staying out of range themselves. But dom2 provides no tactical options for this. "Fire and Flee" would be optimal for these purposes if it didnt break up your units into a handful of provs like a rout. You could buy 20 LC and just sit them in the path of an attacking army and they would shoot at them and flee every game turn...

But we all know that Fire and Flee doesnt work. So then I am looking at the LC and seeing no place for it, no reason to recruit. And I thought to myself that giving them all javs would be - at the very least - more effective than having a unit which is no better than a traditional bowman, but costs more and consumes more supplies.

To be honest, I don't think I would buy either javelin or shortbow LC, even in this mod. However, the javelin ones are just as common as the shortbow ones, so there is no need to replace them.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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Saber Cherry said:
Scott Hebert:

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BF Ulm? Mass Ranger annihilation works well, so I hear.

Illuminated Ones, as written, are rather disappointing. Granted, they ARE spies, and they should pay for it, but it could work out better. For me, changing Illuminated Ones/Members of the Second Tier from Astral Primary to Blood Primary would be a useful thing to do.

Illuminated One: B
Member of the Second Tier: SBB

Anyway, just a thought.

Blood isn't very illuminating, but maybe SB? And/or throwing a random onto a mage might be interesting.

Well... from my analysis, they aren't overpriced... from a strict numbers standpoint. (Well, they're not overpriced just like all cheap mages aren't overpriced...) Thing is... Spy-mages are horrible. Assassin-mages can at least do something while they're sneaking around (kill commanders), but why have a spy-mage? Now, if you could use other players' sites with spy-mages, that would be a different issue.

Another idea would be 'stealing' gem production with spy-mages.

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My main issues with BF Ulm, from a 'fun' standpoint, are:

1. Bloodhunting Micromanagement (no fun)
2. Pretender 'must' be able to cast Sanguine Heritage
3. Illuminated Ones are pointless (Fortunetellers do everything they do and more)
4. Scales are bad (Death and Misfortune are things you don't want with a Blood nation)
5. Rather random Bloodhunters (I'm not paying 160g for a 1-blood hunter)

As an aside, Zen's mod making the Fountain produce Blood Slaves every turn is REALLY GOOD for BF Ulm.

1) True, but it hits all nations.

Yes, but it doesn't make it any less of a problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

With an enforced Death scale, there's no way to offset this problem (aside from Growth-enhancing sites).

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2) Yes. Like Tien Chi, this is (IMO) unacceptable (for national mages to be unable to cast national spells).

*nods*

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3) Yep... what about making them making them (BBDD?) with a different name and description?

Personally, can you add the third tier? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I know the Hero is one, so it exists, but you could do so much better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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4) ... I never like death (with living nations). I don't care about misfortune so much, esp. with fortunetellers. But hey, they are thematic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I normally play with Zen's balance mod, or my own mod, both of which HEAVILY PUNISH Misfortune. Yes, it doesn't matter so much with the Fortunetellers, but it does hurt them otherwise (their Heroes are so cool, e.g.).

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5) I agree...

Switching the Illuminated ones to Blood would be the best solution, IMO. That's still quite a bit worse than Mictlan or BoH Abysia.

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Thanks for all the feedback, everyone! I'll see what I can do, but remember that no solutions will be ideal to everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Heh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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PvK said:
Ulmites being a favorite of mine, I'll comment just on what I've read in recent posts here, since I haven't gotten time to try this yet.

* Giving Ulm troops a helmet that doesn't reduce defense will in fact be helpful, at least to some of the troops (e.g. Chain/Hammer/Shield), particularly when they start gaining experience, at least against average regular troops.

Ah, unfortunately... I only replaced full helms with Full Helm of Ulm. And only Black Plate units get those, not full chain units... and Black Plate units never really get defense above 10 anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So, it's mainly aesthetic...

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* I second thinktank's suggestion to give Ulmites higher MR. If it were moddable (tis not), I'd have every level of drain scale add to their MR, but failing that, +2-4 MR for Ulm would be neat IMO, and I'd do that rather than improving their helmet design.

That would make Ulm more powerful, but really change their theme. A "Magic Resistant Ulm" theme might be interesting, but I'd do it seperately, if I did one.

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* Did you look at Ulm morale? Anyone know why Ulm pikeneers get +1 morale compared to the other troops? +1 morale would also be useful for the other troops, but IMO +MR is better - there are ways for Ulm to deal with their morale - not so much for their MR.

I gave all Ulm Black Plate units +1 morale, since I imagine they would feel invincible in their super-heavy armor. And because they are used in small groups, and small strong groups have excessive routing trouble with Dominions II's morale algorithms. And (base) Ulm has only holy-2, aside from the prophet... which is a double whammy.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

More changes. Still no new version uploaded.

Game's 3 worst weapons improved slightly:
Glaive went from (10, -1, -1, 4) to (10, 0, -1, 4)
Halberd went from (10, -1, -1, 4) to (10, 0, -1, 4)
Axe went from (7, -1, -1, 1) to (7, -1, 0, 1)
Indy Archers made slightly worse:
Light Archer: +1g (7g)
Archer: +1g +1def (8g, 9 def)
Heavy Archer: -1prec (10 prec)
Heavy Crossbowman: -1prec (10 prec)
Pureblood Abysians get +1 attack (after all, they cost 20 gold, they're a warlike race, and only had 10-attack 9-defense?)
Pureblood Abysians also get -25% cold resist (from description: 'vulnerable to cold').
Humanbreds are unaffected by these changes.
Man Spearman (Short Spear) dropped 1g to 8g.
Ctissian Slave Lizards dropped price by 1g each.
Ctissian Taskmaster given 3 moves, so now they not only have a reason to exist (before, they didn't), but also, Ctis Runners have a reason to exist (cheaper, and finally there is a commander that can lead them with 3 strat moves).
Falchioneer dropped to 11g.
Royal Guard +3 rcost to 48 (it was too low compared to other mounted units with same equipment)
Skin Shifters (werewolf precursors) bumped +2 hp (15 hp) to prevent pre-shift death.
Galderman gets +4 hp, +3 str, +1 att, +1 def, +25% since he is also a werewolf.
Einheres get +1 hp (to 13) so they don't die before they berserk, and full ambidextrity (3).
Bane Spiders and Spider Warriors get 11 mr instead of 10. Must either be their mysterious spider armor, or something that happens under the tutlage of the Black Sorcerers...
Jotun Woodsmen dropped -10g to 40g. Why were they the same price as scouts that are better in every way? Plus, they are capitol only, and just not that good, with no armor, shield, javelin, or stealthy priest to bless them...

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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Saber Cherry said:
Jotun Woodsmen dropped -10g to 40g. Why were they the same price as scouts that are better in every way? Plus, they are capitol only, and just not that good, with no armor, shield, javelin, or stealthy priest to bless them...

Now this doesn't make too much sense to me, as woodsmen with an appropriate bless effect already had better cost effectiveness than niefel giants.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete

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Graeme Dice said:

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Now this doesn't make too much sense to me, as woodsmen with an appropriate bless effect already had better cost effectiveness than niefel giants.

Hmm, you're right, I never realized that. Should I decrease Giant costs or boost Woodsman costs, or something else? Woodsmen are not good enough for a bless strategy, in my opinion. I'd bet on the same cost in gold of Daoine Sidhe, Flagellants, Black Hunters, Vans, Paladins, Black Templars, Jaguar Warriors...

Do you find Woodsmen to be useful?

How about Giants?

New version out.

Version 7 is finished. Check the first post for changelog and to download the file!