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Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Quote:

Originally posted by Gryphin:
Pvk, Suicide Junkie, Thontob,
You all say it so much betterer than me.
Thinking back, I have played games simulating warfare since 1975. I can only think of a few exceptions where there was not in effect some form of a Play Balancing System.
Rock, Paper, Scissors component selection
In a WWII game the main elements were Infantry, Armor, Artillery. I’m over simplifying here. Each had distinct advantages and each disadvantages. It really came down to selecting the right units for the job and deploying them correctly.
I can also remember the endless "competitive discussions" on whether this or that was "Realistic". Since many of the games were "real world" simulations such as WRG's Ancients or their WWII (forget the name) miniatures game there was a strong emphasis on making them “more realistic”. So we changed the rules or added more. In SEIV we don’t have many options to change the hard code. We can Mod and make Gentleman’s Agreements on restricting the use of a perceived exploit.

See, realistic WW2 combined arms tactics (another gaming obsession of mine) is a great example of something I would never describe as "rock/paper/scissors". Yes, any one element alone is going to have exploitable handicaps, but the relationships between them are detailed and make sense, and it is not a case of A beats B beats C which beats A. Some things are better than others in different circumstances, and different elements' strengths and weaknesses can complement each other IF used in ways that make sense. That's VASTLY more complex, interesting, and sensible than "rock/paper/scissors" - by many orders of magnitude.

OTOH, I won't ever forget talking with a game developer gushing about his latest RTS and proudly mentioning the "rock/paper/scissors" "principle", and the frequently-mentioned an utterly idiotic set-up (no doubt from some wretched old game theory textbook written by a non-gamer academic, and/or the 80's game The Ancient Art of War) where there are spearmen, swordsmen, and bowmen, and spearmen beat swordsmen who beat bowmen who beat spearmen. Which, as a fan of realistic and interesting ancient/medieval tactical games, I would say is utter bunk, not to mention being completely uninteresting.

Ooops, I'm ranting in the middle of the night about my pet peeve again. 'scuze me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[ December 28, 2002, 10:36: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

I am one of the people who have used the Rock/Paper/Scissors analogy. I would like to clarify the statement by saying it this way:

This game is about figuring out what your opponent is up to and countering it.

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

PvK, you are taking the RPS thing way too seriously. It's an analogy. Nobody is saying SEIV is just like RPS in all ways. There are no RPS forums. There is no PBW for RPS. There are no RPS Mods.
RPS balance mod: See if I hold my hand like this, it's a stapler. Stapler beats paper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Geoschmo

[ December 28, 2002, 14:38: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

I think you are missing the point of an analogy. It does not say that A is B, it says that A is similar to B in some way. There is a huge room for difference between A and B. SE4 is not RPS, it is just vaguely similar in one single way, in that there is no uber-tactic. All tactics have counter-tactics, but it is not as simple as RPS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Yeah, you guys are basically right - I'm bemoaning the term, which has the wrong associations for me, and nothing you folks are intending. So, this is not the best forum for whining about it.

The expression "Rock/Paper/Scissors" can be interpreted so many ways, that it's nearly meaningless unless accompanied by a more specific discussion, which here it almost always is. I guess it mainly bugs me because I have seen so many game industry professionals who seem to be dumping millions of game dev bucks into lame repetetive designs according to moronic adherence to formulae. Formulaic RTS + primitive RPS = crapware from heck, more often than not.

PvK

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thei R'vek:
Then play a 0 Racial Point game.

That doesn't address the issue of determining what is relatively more valuable than what (ie: what should cost more, what should cost less). All it does is give you fewer points to spend.<hr /></blockquote>I will admit that it gives you fewer points to spend but it also forces you to make some tough decisions about what is most valuable to you since you MUST take a lower ability in one or more areas to get a bonus in one or more areas.

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Quote:

Originally posted by Thei R'vek:
I will admit that it gives you fewer points to spend but it also forces you to make some tough decisions about what is most valuable to you since you MUST take a lower ability in one or more areas to get a bonus in one or more areas.

No, not really. You can take down Physical Strength, Environment resistance, Organic Extraction, Repair Aptitude, and Political Savvy without much penalties to your race. You can also take down Intelligence in high tech games, and Cunning in no intel games. Take down anything else and it means sure defeat.

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Google: Rock Papper Scissors
and you get: http://www.worldrps.com/

The Official Rock Paper Scissors Strategy Guide
2002 International RPS Championships November 16th, Toronto, Canada.
At the Mockingbird, 580 King Street West. 1st Prize $1,200, 2nd ...
Description: Strategy and game news from the World RPS Society.
Category: Games > Hand Games > Rock, Paper, Scissors
www.worldrps.com/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Bwahahaahahahaahahahahahahahaha
Gotcha GEO:
Quote Geoschmo "...There are no RPS forums..."

[ December 29, 2002, 04:05: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

That website is a hoot. It is so well crafted and professional looking I can't tell if it's for real or just a big joke. Thanks for the link Wardad.

Geoschmo

Re: "Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

Wow, I had no idea that there's a World Society for Rock Paper Scissors, with World Championship tournaments!

Looking at the web site, it says that RPS is played all over the world and has many different names: Jenken, Jan Ken Pon, Roshambo, Shnik Shnak Shnuk, Ching Chong Chow, Farggling, Scissors Paper Stone, Scissors Rock Paper. ... interesting!