Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think what you mean is that multi-player games should give out more points overall than a singleplayer game, but not as much for the individual player?

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think what you mean is that multi-player games should give out more points overall than a singleplayer game, but not as much for the individual player? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think a game of, say, 4 players should result in points to the winner (and away from the loser) equal to what they would have gotten if they had won (or lost) 2 one-on-one games. The guys in 2nd and 3rd somewhere in between. And if there were 9 players, equal to 3 one-on-one games won or lost. And so on.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Some response after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Slynky, your adendum to Geo's formula is not bad, but it still gives a bit strange results. What my little table do is to mix the logaritmic of Geos formula with some linear components. By changing some simple factors I can get it to give (almost) the results I want. The computation of the actual game results could be done just the same way you propose using your formula (with a little fix of the table), calculating the knocked out players points first and dividing the result among the remaining players.

Just som examples (remember the table can be twisted to give both higer values and more/less spread):

3 Players
Slynky/Geos formula: 2,60 / -0,87 / -1,73
Primitives table: 1,51 / -0,08 / -1,44

4 players:
Slynky/Geos formula: 3,67 / -0,33 / -1,33 / -2
Primitives table: 2,04 / 0,29 / -0,74 / -1,59

10 players:
Slynky/Geos formula: 8,95 / 2,62 / 1,04 / -0,01 / -0,80 / -1,44 / -1,96 / -2,42 / -2,81 / -3,16
Primitives table: 3,73 / 1,58 / 0,71 / 0,17 / -0,25 / -0,60 / -0,91 / -1,20 / -1,48 / - 1,75

Anyway, Its your call Slynky. If you want me to make a table I will do so. If you will go with the formula I'm okay with that too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Primitive's calculations are not quite what I envisioned you mean, Slynky. Is he right? If so, I heartily endorse your plan.

Sorry Primitive, but I still find the numbers in your table a tad low. Just my opinion.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

As I said, they can be tweaked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But if everybody is happy with the Slynky/Geo formula then there should be no need http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

I am looking to get a rated game going. I just finished up a game with Baron Grazic. He worked me over pretty good but that is how you learn. Great game Baron I learned alot. I am a newby with just a little experience. If anybody is interested let me know.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm always up for more games.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

What I like is when you can schedule a turn fest with your opponent. Then the game become really interesting really quick.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Hi Joachim,

I was thinking of a game like this:

No Events
No Intel
No Anchient Race
No Religion
3 Lg Planets
2000 Race Points
Geos Balanced Map
Standard KOTH Settings

If you have any preferences let me know.

Fire

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just a reminder to both, to prevent a bad start, you cannot take NONE atmosphere with this mod.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats all good. I am happy to let you choose the settings.
Could someone be so kind as to set it up for us please?

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

I've set it up.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Thanks Asmala. Which patch did you use to set the game up. 1.91, etc?

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

I got the patch # from the game. I am using the Jraenar stock ship set.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Slynky,

Regarding the KOTH Electrum v Primaive game. The Electrum surrenders. Please adjust the Ratings accordingly.

Thanks

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Games needing rating computation (in this order):

4 player multi-player (Alneyan, Belisarius, Gecko, Slynky)

Alneyan vs Primitive

Joachim vs Warlord Ragnarok

Primitive vs RexTorres

Parabolize vs Joachim

Electrum vs Primitive

(looking at the list, I'm trying to understand what I was thinking when I assumed Joachim and Rags' rating was dependent on something above...and if there is no dependency there, then there should be no problem with going ahead and computing Parabolize vs Joachim.)

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't heard much disent on formulas lately. I suspect the subject is getting old and as we say "down south", it's time to "---- or get off the pot!".

So, having said that, I will attempt the multi-player game that is causing the hold up and we'll just see how it comes out in a RL example. And, of course, post the info here afterwards.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

So if we are now doing the Ratings of the multi-rating games before the end of the match...

For the Pairs game, the following people are still in:-

Primitive
Grazic
Asmala
Tescosamoa
Parasite

Gecko Last (6th) place
Cybersol Pulled out early. Not counted.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Thanks, Baron! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

OK, here is the "GeoSly" formula in a real game. Remember, Geo's base formula was intended to lessen the effects of losing while rewarding a person able to pull off a win in a multi-player game.

Game Players in order of finish (with ranking at the time they entered the game):

Alneyan - 1000
Slynky - 1104
Master Belisarius - 1050
Gecko - 990

Round 1:

Gecko out receiving -26 points
Remaing players receiving +8 each
All Ratings adjusted

Round 2:

Master Belisarius out receiving -32 points
Remaining players receiving +16 each
All Ratings adjusted

Round 3:

Slynky out receiving -42 points
Alneyan receiving +42 points
All Ratings adjusted

Net results:

Gecko: -26 points
Master Belisarius: -24 points
Slynky: -18 points
Alneyan: +66 points

Here are the points layed horizontally as we have been seeing them in examples:

+66, -18, -24, -26

At first, this looks a bit unbalanced from what we have been looking at in other examples that used the sample rating of 1000 for all players. In the above, we see that the person with nearly the lowest score won the game! And the person with the highest score (me) came in second. This should explain the (kind of) wild swing in what we have been seeing when explaining the formula in the earlier Posts...the person who should have won it came in 2nd and was beaten by the person with nearly the lowest rating. Also, the person with nearly the lowest score won the game over some higher rated players.

Here is the "horizontal" for 4 players rated at 1000 points each:

+58, - 6, -22, -32

This looks a bit skewed, also so I tried to figure out why and I think the Last computation (when only 2 players remain) should not get the modifier (# of players squared) applied and just be a straight out computation as in a 1 x 1.

This would change the "horizontal" for 4 players rated at 1000 points each to:

+42, +10, -22, -32

So, what do you guys think? Does this look fair? (and your vote doesn't count, Alneyan... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

sounds good to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

If 4 equaled rated players play, 2 should gain points, 2 should lose them.
This seems to do this, and your post didn't have any mathematics, so you didn't confuse me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Test it out for 6 players, all with 1000 points, and let me know what place I have to get in the Pairs game so I don't loose points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 29, 2004, 03:43: Message edited by: Baron Grazic ]

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

If the examples you give are typical, it will probably work out fine. My only concern would be that it doesn't appear to be "point neutral", that is there are not an equal number of total points gained as lost. It's not extreme in these examples though. In fact in these examples it appears there are a couple less points earned then lost. As long as it doesn't end different in real games. You don't want to have a bunch of point inflation, for reasons already stated in the thread.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't want to bore people with all the math. I suspect final results and what the prospects might be if entering a rated multi-player game would be of the most interest.

I think, though I have not bothered to calculate decimals, the slight disparity in points lost and gained (overall) was due to my rounding when I divided the computations by the "gaining" players. Rounding up and down.

More importantly, I was looking for some opinion as to NOT using the "square root of number of players" modifier in the final computation (between 1st and 2nd place)...it seems to put a big gap in there.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Yo da man Slynky. Looks very good for 4 players.
However; Does it work 3 players or for larger games ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Two suggestions.
A: Try using the Square of Players - 1 instead of Square of players as the factor. That way it will work for all sizes (even 2 players).

B: The same adjustment you did between first and second should be done for every calculation:
3rd player get whatever points he has accumulated - a 3 player loss (square of 3 or square of 2, see A)) and so on.

Using both suggestions would give these results (all 1000 point players):
37 / 5 / -13 / -28

But, as I said before: Its your call Slynky, these are just suggestions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Fire v Joachim Rated Challenge

Can you kick us off when you get a chance please Asmala.
Cheers.

P.S good luck Fire.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Okie Dokie.
This work for all games. For easy use:
A: Calculate the points for the knocked out player towards the average of the remaining players
B: Multiply with the Square root of the number of remaining players.
C: Distribute the winning points evenly between the remaining players.
D: Repeat until game over.
Nothing to it.

Example 4 (1000 points) players:
Loosing player (4th in example) = 1 loss * Root (3) = - 28 points
Second Last (3rd) gets 1/3 rd of the points from the loosing player + (- ?) 1 loss * Root (2) = -14 points
Third Last (2nd) gets 1/3 rd from the looser, + ½ from 3rd + (-?) 1 loss = 5 points
Winner gets 1/3 rd from the looser, + ½ from 3rd + 1 win = 36 points

Should be an easy formula in here, but its been 20 + years since I’ve done any math so I have no idea how to write it down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Thanks, "Big P" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

To sum up...if I understand, our formulas are exactly the same except you compute the "multiplier" based on the amount of people left in the game at the time a loser is being computed when I was using the same multiplier (in the case of a 4-player game...the root of 4) for EACH round of computations. Perhaps that was why it was swinging wildly as it got down to the Last computation.

Do I have it right, now?

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

[EDIT] Piece of crap board..."sit back, we are taking you back to the forums"

And there it sits. One never knows it has been posted...so this is my way of deleting the double post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif .

[ March 29, 2004, 15:17: Message edited by: Slynky ]

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes,.
Just remember its the Square of the remaining players (n-1), not total number of players. So the looser in a 4 player game will get the root of 3 as the multiplier, not the root of 4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 29, 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: primitive ]

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes,.
Just remember its the Square of the remaining players (n-1), not total number of players. So the looser in a 4 player game will get the root of 3 as the multiplier, not the root of 4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good. Just so we understand it. When I get some time, I'll run it through the "new" formula. I think it looks a bit better.

Thanks for the feedback and we'll get these Ratings caught up soon.

Gotta run right now...was just checking the board before I signed off.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Hope I have understood your proposal properly Slynky. If I am right it will not work well on larger games.

Example, 10 (1000 point) players :

Slynky: 108 / 76 / 17 / 0 / -13 / -23 / -31 / -39 / -45 / -51

Mine: 75 / 43 / 25 / 11 / -1 / -12 / -22 / -31 / -40 / -48

If the numbers of points is to low, the easiest way to fix it is to just multiply everything with some percentage (based on gamesize of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I appreciate the interest and suggestions. Truth be told, I was trying to find a nice spot between what Geo suggested and what Grandpa Kim would like to see. But, looking at your spread(s), I think it looks a bit better over all as my exponential stuff seems to create too wide of a spread.

So, if I may ask, how about a detailed math example of your approach for a 4-person game where all players have 1000 points (where we all know 16 points is the gain/loss)? I just want to make sure I understand it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Hey Joachim,

I think Asmala forgot about our game LOL. I hope he didnt go on vacation.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Games needing rating computation (in this order):

4 player multi-player (Alneyan, Belisarius, Gecko, Slynky)

Alneyan vs Primitive

Joachim vs Warlord Ragnarok

Primitive vs RexTorres

Parabolize vs Joachim

Electrum vs Primitive

Slynky vs Joachim

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Working on the Ratings now. Here is the re-work using the "GeoSlyPri" formula henceforth referred to as the Geo-Slippery formula:

Alneyan +40
Slynky -2
Belisarius -14
Gecko -22

I think this looks much better as the spread looks similar to the "1000" point baseline calcs BUT we note that Alneyan was nearly the lowest rated player (and therefore got quite a few points for his 1st place finish). Beating me alone gave him 21 points on the Last computation (besting Geo's record of getting 20 points from me)!

Again, points would be nearly the same as won and lost but because of rounding...we have a 2-point disparity.

I'll be making all the other updates now that this "roadblock" is out of the way. Thanks for the interest and input.

Incidently, I will count a multi-player game as one game...as people leave, their game count will be upped by one while the players still in a game will not get an additive. When all is done, everyone will have one game added.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Working on the site now...there is a new points leader!

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Uhhh, could we maybe come up with a better name? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean for the formula? LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Site updated (big update):

First, all Nodachi games deleted...it turns out the game that was assumed to be in progress was being played by the computer. So all games of his have been deleted.

All games that were awaiting computation have been computed. Even the loss of Gecko in the Pairs game.

There may have been some date disorder (particularly with the Pairs game) so the points may be skewed by doing it Last.

You will see on the site that a lost in a multi-player game shows the winner as "Multi" and the loser, well, as the loser's name. The winner of the Multi-player game will be listed as the winner and the loser will be called "Multi". Better than keeping up with various abbreviations of those games that might not mean a lot to people.

Important:

I may have missed posting a game in progress that is being rated. PLEASE review and let me know as soon as possible.

Finally (and not Lastly), congrats to Primitive, who has been eyeing the fart cushion on my "points throne" for some time now...may it emit the same melodious sounds as it did for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Also, apologies for the delay in posting updates. My goal is to update the site around 24 hours from the time of notifications. I may let a new game go for a bit longer but I realize people are anxious to see the results of a completed game.

The delay was due to the discussion on a fair way to rate multi-player games that resulted in a "middle of the road" agreement between making a multi-player game equivalent to an equal number of single-player games and "slimming down" a multi-player game so that it didn't seem to result in a "huge" amount of points lost and gained. Hopefully, this will be a happy median.

Also, I have had to bring graphics work home in the past several weeks for 2 projects that had very high visibility and deadlines. Between working on those and keeping my game turns up-to-date, I didn't have a lot of time to spend on seeking out a computation solution.

Again, my apologies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

A solution has been reached and we are moving ahead again, so all is well.
I'd also like to thank you Slynky for managing the Ratings systems, something that I would never be able to do, so Thanks... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are quite welcome, Baron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Like others, I enjoy the game immensely. And it seemed like a way to "give" something back to the community that has answered my questions, been subjected to my attempts at humor, and, well, just plain being friendly.

PS: I'm sorry the Nodachi game had to be "nixed".

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Luv the new look on the statistics page. Very beautiful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks for doing this. Great service http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You've been kicking serious butt lately...you deserve to sit there (well, for a while, anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Good job! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Site updated:

1 game completed

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Site updated:

2 games added.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire surrenders to Joachim, turn 24.

Fire, you were completely screwed by our start positions. I offer an immeadiate re-match - I hope you take this up. We started next to each other!! but lucky for me I had most of the galaxy to colonise. Fire needed an immeadiate victory rush to work, but mines stoped it. A game decided by the start regretably.

Re: SE4 Rating System
 

Site updated:

1 game completed (congrats to Joachim for hoping above the starting line!)