Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Yeah, here's my contribution to a CoE3 thread from another forum:


Conquest of Elysium is actually pretty underwhelming. I was stoked at first but having soaked six or so evenings into it, I can say that it feels a little flat. The various factions are interesting and they really do play quite differently from one another, and trying them out has been the main thing that's been holding my interest so far. However, the game is incredibly unforgiving about going into combat without enough troops/support/mage power. That all-encompassing fact makes the early game quite slow and punishing and the mid game feel kinda the same regardless of faction.

The thing is, for almost all nations, troops are expensive and hard to come by (5 bottom of the barrel spearmen cost 50 gold and in the beginning you are generating 3-4gp/turn). You will lose 2-3 troops in a good battle and often times more than that if bad luck so much as glances at you. That means it takes a long time to build up your forces to critical mass so you can conquer without taking inordinate losses. Also, your two starting commanders are, for almost all nations, indispensable (the game is more-or-less about your head commander's rise to power and losing him is generally cause to call it quits), which is fine except that combat is always an all-or-nothing affair where both sides fight to the death and, unlike Dominions 3, there is no running away and regrouping later if you underestimated your opponent or had a run of bad luck. Therefore, the game heavily, heavily incentives conservative play which I find a little boring. Plus, it really doesn't feel like the AI knows how to play this game, so I'm often playing against indie-mobs and opponents who flail around more-or-less at random.

Since it lacks almost all commander scripting, all troop placement (and troop scripting) and nearly all research, I find combat to be mostly just getting enough dudes to overwhelm the enemy. If it had even half the tactical depth of Dom3 I could see myself enjoying it a lot more. Once the joy of discovery runs out, there doesn't seem to be much left to sustain the player's interest.

I don't know. Maybe I need to give it more time to grow on me... some games are like that. Or maybe it'll take Illwinter a few feedback cycles to get the game in it's proper form (Dom3 has certainly undergone extensive changes over it's lifespan). Regardless, I'm leaving it alone for now.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Just a couple points.

-You can move your armies by using the number pad, not just the mouse. That might be useful? I personally prefer the mouse, but most people I've talked to don't.

-Picking different eras to play effects what kinds and how many "monsters" wander around the map. So that might change your level of enjoyment. It feels a lot less annoying when your mine is taking over by a chimera instead of a deer.

-Its important not to think of CoE3 as a 4X game like Dominions. It isn't. If you're expecting that type of gameplay you will be very, very disapointed. It is a roguelike with armies instead of just single characters. The randomness is a feature. Sometimes you'll have easy games due to a nice starting position, sometimes you'll be defeated by a wandering monster in your first year. Its all just a part of the experience. It seems to be just as much about exploration of the land and discovery of the mythos as it is about conquest.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I don't think I would call it a roguelike. Random maps do not a roguelike make. It is missing a lot of the complexity, I would expect in a roguelike. (from what I have seen).

It just looks like Homm without the fancy graphics and tactical combat, and more nation diversity.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

This is pretty close to what I think. There's no complexity in any part of the game, but it isn't streamlined enough to be brilliant in simplicity either.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I generally agree w/ shatner & elmokki points. I think this is good criticism and should be taken as such.

I'm not disappointed since I set my expectations appropriately once I understood IW didn't make CoE3 to be a lightweight dom and b/c the game fits nicely into the (avg.) 5 mins per day time slot I have for it.

I don't assume CoE3 has stellar success market wise. I get it, IW develop what they feel like and that's great. However, If they were to start feeling like developing dom-IV I think it stands much better chances to be a (FTBS) niche hit.

Whatever they do, at least dom-III is in much much better state than MoM was when it was abandoned so I expect to keep enjoying it for years to come :)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

The AI within Dom_3 is also poor, despite the vast amount of updates to this game over the years there's been virtually no improvements with the AI opponents. Sure there's been improvements with what happens during a battle, but not with the thinking/actions of the AI opponents themselves. I mean since Dominions_2 the AI opponents still send their "pretenders" to the arena death match yet nothing has been done to fix it. That's just one of many examples.

I personally don't need fancy graphics having played games like dwarf fortress and nethack, but developer(s) should always take a step forward from any previous game they've released instead of a step backwards as seen within CoE_3.
Actually there's many developers who have the "develop whatever they feel like" personality and create a game with almost zero research or customer input. My theory is because they are able to create games the sense of power gives many of them a 'know-it-all' way of thinking.

Agreed, like many other great abandoned games Dominions_3 will forever exist on my computer along with a few others. One nice thing about Dwarf Fortress is the developer has made it his lifework... so it will continue to evolve. The Newb Pack has made it easy to add graphics and sound to the game.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=59026.0

He's also been planning to move towards 64bit and multi_threading which is a good sign he's thinking of a computer game for tomorrow... instead of the fading present.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

NTJedi, what about the visuals do you think are a step backwards since Dom3?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'm not him but I can answer it too!

Sprites are (mostly) better but that's the only improvement. Combat looked a lot better in Dom3 with actual flying things and background and actual army positions (not AAA game level looks obviously, but better). Lastly it's completely due to game mechanics, but beautiful Dom3 maps are a lot more beautiful than CoE3 maps. That, however should not be a surprise to anyone. Of course a beautifully drawn freeform image looks better than tile based map.

Oh yeah, by the way, what's up with combat not being skippable before the combat window is already open? I'd much rather just get a list of "these battles happened, wanna look?" like Dominions 3.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

You can do that if you use the battlereports command line switch.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'm not bashing CoE3. I'm just saying, I would not think of it as a roguelike. But the roguelike genre is hard to define.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Couldnt agree more. I was into it for about 5 hours or so when I was stoked and sure that their was a layer of complexity bubbling underneath the surface, when that turned out to be false I stopped playing.

Roguelikes are deep with options, COE3 is not deep at all and really the only choices to be made are very simple risk vs reward decisions and usually only early in the game. After that it becomes a summon, recruit, expand grind with no tactical, and only little strategic decision making required.

I was umming and arring between this game and dom3, however bought this because the reviewers stated that it was a better single player game. Having bought Dom3 and played it exclusively single player (trying to get some MP going tho) I can heartily disagree with that, Dom 3 is just a MUCH better game all round.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

i totally agree. as i see the main reason behind my disappointment of coe3 are the statements that coe3 was optimized for single player play. after exploring some of the nations and playing a couple games it became such a bore, that dom3 SP got looking much more interesting and enjoyable in contrast. according to my taste of complexity and strategy games these two games are not even close. I would like to stress that dom3 is my favorite game by far.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

CoE3 can be played multiplayer, but requires direct connection instead of PBEM.

The main problem in my eyes seems to be that, despite multiple, highly emphasized warnings to NOT treat CoE3 as Dom4 and to NOT expect it to be Dom4, quite a few Dom3 veterans went and did precisely that. No wonder the game is a letdown in that kind of situation.

Personally I love both games, since they answer different types of strategy gaming needs for me.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I hestitated buying CoE3 for long since I expected it to be crap. Then I figured that since some people at least seem to really like it I'll buy it.

What I expected was a lightweight, somewhat Age of Wonders or Heroes of Might and Magic style game. That implies having turns quick and still having enough character development and tactics and whatnot for it to feel meaningful.

CoE3 IS somwhat like AoW or HoMM series and the varying characters are a cool idea. That's where it ends. There's absolutely no depth in any part of the game to make playing it feel like fun. Even just small things like a bit of control to what your troops do to combat (I personally liked the Dominions 3 scripts and combat, but that may be too cumbersome even with the vastly lower numbers of units and commanders) and more character development so it feels more like a strategy role playing game would go a long way already.

When you add into the lack of depth a huge very often game crippling or game winning luck element you've made a game which is very comparable to monopoly, it's really even worse. You don't have very meaningful choices and you luck is the primary thing affecting your success. If you can compare a game to Monopoly like that, the game is probably bad.

It's not a dissapointment since I assumed it to be streamlined Dominions 3, it's a dissapointment because it's just plain bad.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I have mixed feelings on the matter.
On the one hand I do agree w/ the criticism here.
OtoH I'm having fun playing. I esp. liked playing Druid & Necromancer. It may very well have to do w/ the small amount of time I actually have to play. So it leaves me always wanting more.

I do wonder if ever we will see a dominions IV. If IW are burnt out on this it may never happen :(

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'm sorry to hear that, elmokki. To each his own, I guess, and this one apparently wasn't for you. :(

One of the things that, in hindsight, should perhaps have been brought out more during the beta test phase is that CoE3 is better compared to Warlords 2 and Warlords 3: Darklords Rising than to the HoMM series or Age of Wonders, never mind Dominions.

However, memory being finite and the Warlords series being as old as it is (meaning from the early to mid 1990s), it was not the first comparison to come to mind.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Depends on their personality. Some personalities might cause this experience to move them more quickly and more determined for releasing a better DOM_4. Some personalities might cause this experience to move them more toward trying to save/rescue this current game to the point of even spending the next 5 years patching/updating and even as far as working on a sequel thus CoE_4.

Illwinter seems to have given the impression of working on non_dominions stuff for awhile... so maybe by 2020 we'll have a Dom_4.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

That's a good point... I didn't like the Warlords serie much, but it certainly does bear a good deal of resemblance to CoE3.

Based on the screenshots, I was thinking more alongside a simpler Dominions mixed with some Masters of Magic / Age of Wonders due to the map grid and "squad" gameplay. Warlords is certainly a more apt comparison to CoE3, what with extremely simple gameplay elements and the massive luck elements (Warlords had an extremely binary approach to unit battles if I remember well).

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Maybe a Masters of Magic if it was updated to run on new OS's and then planned on updating. Mostly CoE3 is CoE2 updated to starting point. I wouldnt judge CoE3 totally on what it is now. Especially anyone who has been here thru the growth of Dom3. The Dom3 demo is still available for a free download. Grab it and play it since that is still the original release of Dom3. CoE3 feels like that to me and I can already see a long list of changes made directly from player requests.

Now Im just hoping no one poisons the flow. Truthfully, Im not missing much of the Dom3 crowd.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

What exactly was "poisoned" in Dominions 3 development in your opinion?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Some minor things were implemented, and some good ideas were set aside. It doesnt take much looking back to see a distinct difference in the way they were presented here. I tried to point it out regularly but few seemed to get the tips.

Altho I will admit that since I didnt seem able to make it clear how to do things right (within the limitations of the forum) I went ahead and manipulated some of it. Personal contacts to give hints on how to ask for things if I highly agreed with them. And in some cases I will guiltily admit that I spurred some people to continue presenting things I didnt much agree with since they seemed so good at presenting it as temptingly as a stick up the ***. It not my job anymore to give a **** whether or not they can figure things out for themselves.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Well, I have to admit that I started playing Dominions 3 on the newest patch so I did miss the whole updating process... I do have CoE3 still installed (I played a game as the Bakemono sorcerer during the weekend actually), and I am keeping an eye out on the updates once in a while. I am not enjoying CoE3 that much currently but I'm not dropping hope that I will eventually... So, for one I apologize if I've been too negative or "poisonous" regarding the game.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

You'd probably make a fairly good politician based on the first paragraph. I was interested in actual examples of things that were "poisoned"

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Exactly. Im just not that rude, a fault that others have pointed out here often. For a long time I often referred nicely that free things go away when people forget how to pay for free things. Even the people I dislike the most here, I cant bring myself to go specifically to their threads and say things like:
In the past I have been paid to read the rants and reword them into nice requests to post to the staff forums. And then reword the techs or devs response into something nice enough for public forum posting. Many large companies operate that way. Im not paid to do that anymore.

But even then, I still would never post answers like those above. Its just not me. If people cant look at what threads and people got results, and which ones didnt, then oh well.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'll preface my comments by saying that I'm about as undemanding a CoE buyer as there is since I purchased it as a thank you to IW for Dom 3 and wasn't really concerned about whether I'd like it or not. I'm glad people are enjoying the game and I hope it sells well.

Having spent some time with it I'm of the same mind as elmokki as regards luck vs. decision making. Currently luck plays too great a role in the game for my taste. But looking at the pace at which things like modding are being added to the game I'm pretty optimistic that CoE3 can add more in the way of decision making - without sacrificing streamlined gameplay.

I should also mention that I've only played the game SP, don't really plan on playing MP, and view the game as having a SP focus. Given that, my focus is on fun rather than game balance.


* Allow more control over spellcasting. Probably my favorite class is the warlock. It's exciting to get a spell that attacks an entire row ... but pretty frustrating when the AI decides to start off combat with a spell that attacks just a single or handful of opponents instead (obviously front loading damage is good since it reduces the number of hits my troops will take). So what about giving the player complete control over available spells, even to the extent of just selecting one to be cast repeatedly (and if it could no longer be cast then the game would default to the complete spell list)? Edi mentioned here or on the CoE forum that there are some very powerful spells and if you could specify that they be cast repeatedly it would be OP. But I guess I don't mind because from a SP perspective if I get a great spell it's damn fun to watch it annihilate my opponents. :evil: From a MP perspective this could be a problem but if the game developed more tactical depth this could actually present some interesting possibilities - I know my opponent has a great spell and I'm counting on him using it so I attack with a force designed with that in mind. Like I said, I don't think the game currently has that depth, but the potential is there.

If that's a nonstarter then what about a limited scripting system for 1-3 turns? Something along the lines of:

Round 1: cast fire attack at entire first row of opponents
Round 2: cast armor buff on entire first row of army
Round 3: cast strength buff on multiple units in first row of army

Now, you'd probably want to leave the back row out of this so people can't just target mages. And this would be optional - you could choose to ignore scripting and just let the AI handle as it now does so it wouldn't add complexity for those that don't want it (but I bet most people would use it :)). And even if you did use it, it wouldn't add the kind of additional burden scripting does in Dom3 because CoE has far fewer commanders to manage.


* Allow more control over unit placement. Thinking over how to provide some control over unit placement, making it army based seemed like it would defeat the purpose of having a fast playing, low micro game. But making it unit based seemed like it might provide some degree of control over your armies without adding much to the micro. Just as is currently the case, each unit would have a default rank and you could use that rank and never use any of this functionality. But if you wanted, you could pull up a list of your current units and change their rank. Perhaps something along the lines of FrontA, FrontB, Middle, and Back. FrontA would be the first units chosen for the front line, after that would come FrontB. So some battles I might want my swordsmen up front to take the first hit and then my summons to clean things up after my mages had softened up the opposition, other battles I might want my summons to go right to work on the enemy.

Again, just like the suggestion with scripting this would be optional and could be ignored if the player didn't want to deal with it.


Now I suspect neither of those ideas are trivial things to do and would involve considerable new coding and maybe there's an easier way to implement decision making for the player but I think these are the kinds of things that would add depth to the game.



I also have a couple of requests that I think would make the game more fun.

* Please (really, please) add a slider to control indie spawn rate. I understand the era chosen effects this but I'm thinking of a global control. Personally, I find indies maddening - I want to focus on fighting my rivals, not tracking down deer and bandits. Also, in the weeks leading up to the release of CoE3 I played a good amount of CoE2 and, unless I'm misremembering, indies didn't seem to be such an aggravation there. Was the spawn rate turned up for CoE3?

* I think it would be very helpful for AIs to start the game with an immobile commander in their capitol, something like the barbarian's totem pole. This would prevent them from losing the game by sending all their commanders out in the field and having them killed or having a small force of indies walk in and take their capitol, resulting in them losing the game if that's their only city. I can't really think of any drawback to doing this. It would mean a bit of a tougher fight for the player to take the opponent's cap but I don't see that as a problem.

* Lastly, in CoE2 the warlock had the ability to bind with an element, which would make him tougher. He still wasn't anything like the stronger monsters but it improved his battlefield survivability ... and it was just cool. Any chance of getting that back?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Posting your requests here isn't likely to get a response, you'd do better to post in the feature requests thread of the desura forum:http://www.desura.com/games/conquest...ature-requests

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Yes if anyone has actual requests for the devs please add them to the wishlists on the official forum at Desura.com
You will note that so far the devs do still reply there.

Most of the spawns can be controlled by taking control of the generator tiles (brigand camps, graveyards). It is mostly the wildlife that people complain about still. There is one mod already for CoE3 which makes the Deer less of a problem, and can be used as a template for doing the same for other spawns that a player finds irritating. Also I understand that Edi is working on a mod to at least make all of the wild animals less wild.

A map scenario could add an immobile commander for nations that dont have one altho that tends to only be a problem for the lower AI levels which would seem to fit that they are lower AI levels. The new modding commands might also if someone wants to play with them after the patch. At the least, it would allow players to test the theory and see if they like the result.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I think the warlock's elemental binding is not coming back in its old form. Some kind of durability buff for them would not be out of place though.

Gandalf is also correct that I am working on a wildlife mod that should reduce the tendency of deer etc to attack everything on sight, but that mod will make game a bit harder for witches and druids (and barbarians when they get spirit guides).

Basically it involves setting terrain preferences for wilderness for a lot of monsters. I need to test out a crapload of modding stuff anyway, so I might as well do something useful at the same time.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

What is that supposed to mean?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Wow. Really?
Or are you just trying to give me enough rope to hang myself

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Good ideas were set aside because they didn't like the presentation? That's like spending more money on a lower value/quality home because the sellers were more friendly than the unfriendly sellers providing the better home deal.
I work with customers using computer hardware and software all the time in my career and some of them are extremely rude, evil and sometimes what seems like insane... however if they have a "good idea" then the good idea moves forward because it's what best for the software, even if it's from a small cruel customer.
Ask yourself... would a wise king pass the opportunity to strengthen his military simply because he doesn't like the personality of the merchant who can magically enchant their training equipment?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

any plan for the coe3 patch release date?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

whoops, nevermind.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

There is more than one way to skin a cat, NTJedi, and not dealing with rude, obnoxious people is one of them.

I also work in customer service, doing tech support and have been doing so for years. We do have a clear policy: If the customer gets shirty and starts being abusive, they get told once that they can either calm down so their issue can be resolved in good order or they can call again after they have calmed down. If they continue hurling abuse, it's "Thanks for calling, have nice day!" *click* and they can bloody well do the troubleshooting dance from the beginning again and again and again and again until they can behave in a civilized manner. I don't give a damn about whether they have a good idea or not, as soon as I start hearing "F-U you [censored] [redacted] [bleep]!" that's it and it's no different for anyone else at my workplace.

You'd be surprised how well it works, because most customers are quite okay and we do want to help them, but there are limits and if the customers know you won't shy from enforcing them, it will be better all around for everyone. There is no sense in rewarding obnoxious behavior in cases like that.

If Illwinter does not want to deal with constant hostility, that is their prerogative. Like it or not, presentation matters and it really does not take a whole lot more effort to formulate suggestions and criticisms in a neutral or positive manner instead of spewing vitriol.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

lol at this whole post, but especially the king merchant analogy

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

You still make too serious a case. They work, they have a family, and they have a hobby.
THIS is a hobby. There are some things that are fun, and some things about it are not so fun.
People who understand this, go for the fun aspect when pitching.

Seriously, the people who are the worst about this strike me as the people who should most understand it. I get the impression that they also, when confronted with "suggestions" full of insults and dares, would decide "I have plenty to do so no I dont think I will appear to give in to your rants". I know I have thruout my life. Might not have been the smartest thing in the world but it was more satisfying.

IT IS A HOBBY. AND IT IS FUN.
Keep trying to turn it into something else and tell them how to do it so that you dont have to ask nicely. Thats ok with me. I no longer have to water it down to try and get it implemented so you can sit here and rant all you care to. :)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

It's not about giving into rants, it's about objectively deciding what's best for the software or in this case the game. As referencing my last example... even if a rude, foul mouthed, snobbish merchant arrived offering to magically enchant training equipment then it's wise to take the merchants offer. Any king or software developer has made unwise decisions when allowing his anger or ego or personality to block "good ideas". No matter how it's delivered... a good idea is still a good idea. Another more simple example would be diamonds... a 2K diamond deep in the mud and animal waste is still extremely valuable.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

It's not about dealing with rants or hostility or rude people... it's about objectively making the best decision when "good ideas" appear. While presentation "helps" it should be a small piece in comparison with the list of good ideas. I would pull a 2K diamond out of animal waste as compared to the 1K Topaz nicely wrapped and packaged. I would hope good ideas would also be pursued with the same wisdom when handling personalities.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

That may be true, but people do regularly make unwise decisions based on how the suggestions are presented. They shouldn't, but they do.

If you want your suggestions to have the best chance, wrap them up all pretty like, don't dunk them in the dung.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

So your argument is that any person has done it, but they shouldnt do it, so you should be able to continue insulting them while presenting your ideas? And that means they should read, and consider, and be willing to appear to cave in to your expertise?

Oh yeah. I can see that. That argument would apply to any "they" I know. Unless of course I know them personally. Then of course, I cant think of anyone who would do that at all. Even the wimpiest person that I know who is usually willing to acknowledge that he knows nothing, no I cant even see him doing it if the challenge was made publicly.

Im not even sure if the ones I know who have totally sold-out to the corporate man (which some consider such a pre-requisite that they will argue that case first in order to make the second one)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

It is very hard not to reply here. But I'm not going to. As I do not want to be banned. (Hi Strider!)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

No, you're missing the point of my argument so I will try and provide more details for you to understand. My point is that they're countless numbers of different people, different cultures, and different personalities all across the world. One individual might voice their ideas/opinions and sound rude yet to another individual they sound excited and the original person might feel they're presenting themselves in yet another different way. Knowing there's individuals across the world which lack the social skills, language skills, or possibly deal with personality deficiencies is more than enough reason why the presentation should be a *small* variable when reviewing a list of ideas presented. On the same note I would rather have a veteran experienced mechanic with a sailors foul mouth working on my vehicle as compared to the inexperienced pretty college girl. Here's another common quote... "Don't judge a book by it's cover" . It's unwise to ignore a good book or a good idea simply because the presentation or apppearance is bad. I hope this help you understand.


I can't think of anyone which ever made challenges or demands, yet even if someone did make challenges or demands the presentation should have little value when matching against other ideas. I can surely say ideas of near equal value is where the presentation should make a difference. As mentioned earlier I would want the king which could deliver the enchanted training equipment as compared to the king which couldn't see beyond the presentation of the rude magical merchant.
REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
Sometime last year I was working with many map makers together on building a massive map for AoW:SM. During development a few of the different personalities from across the world clashed. I was able to see beyond the unsavory presentations/personalities and stablized communications preventing content from being deleted off the map because the production of their *ideas* is what's important.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

commendable team management but isn't the COE development team just 2 brothers?

- creative tensions amongst a team must be managed.
- criticism is useful and should be heard.
- abusive customers are not to be encouraged.

right?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

What's important is the final product... sometimes you need to get your hands dirty to pickup the diamond. If there's a diamond of an idea from a dirt mud customer it's still worth collecting. I might totally despise a specific tailor, mechanic, merchant or "customer", but I'm not communicating with them for social reasons. I'm dealing with them because of the good tailor skills, good mechanical advice or the good idea because it's about the better final product.

I would also not encourage anyone to place their hands in animal waste, however a diamond("good_idea") should still be collected... even if you get your hands dirty. Taking the good idea and then dealing with abusive, rude or annoying customers can be done separately. A wise king would find a way of getting both accomplished instead of sacrificing one of them.

If desired I can provide you details for such a solution.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I keep saying ask nice, and you keep saying that in the real world you shouldnt have to.
I understand what you are saying. Obviously no one is going to be convinced here.
Good luck with your future endeavors.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I agree asking nice helps, but a good idea or a good diamond shouldn't be ignored/rejected based on its presentation.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I respect Illwinter enough to think that they probably know what they are doing. If their attitude is "ignore the asshats and have fun" then I'll take that as good advice for hobby game development. I assume its healthy for long term motivation which is more important than any single suggestion.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Your comments on how people *should* be, NTJedi, may be correct but are irrelevant. Gandalf is saying that if you want your ideas to be heard by Illwinter, you should present them well. He's saying that from having worked closely with them over years and heard their preferences. It's practical advice for dealing with these particular people.

For once I completely agree with Gandalf, which is quite special. :)

From my own experience with CBM:
- I have been lucky not to deal with much outright negative feedback, for which I am grateful
- Constructive criticism is appreciated and is fine. If it is well written and thoughtful I enjoy reading it.
- Occasionally someone will just say "X sucks" or something, and I ignore them. I can't be bothered to ask why because they show no sign of coherent thinking.
- Similarly poor spelling and grammar decreases the perceived value of a comment. If you can't take enough care to even write what you're trying to say properly, it throws some doubt on whether you've taken the time to think through your point.
- If someone were to "demand" a feature I think I would be very likely to ignore them, unless it was obviously a great idea. It would also be demotivating.
- Purely positive feedback (e.g. "I really love the Open the Seal spell!") is very motivating. However this community is extremely generous and produces plenty of this so we are very lucky.

Rereading the above it looks a bit egotistical. I'm not saying all this because I think you all really care about my emotional reaction to the CBM thread, but rather just as a case study of human reactions to feedback.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

You might also be making the mistake of assuming all suggestions are diamonds.

If there is a field of filth with a bunch of rocks in it, and maybe a couple of quarters, I'm not even going to bother. If somebody tells me there is a single diamond out there, somewhere, in that field of dung? Umm... I don't know if I'm that desperate.

A lot of the suggestions presented regarding CoE have been... weak, regardless of their presentation.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

A lot of the suggestions about CoE you can tell the people havent played the whole game, or tried the different levels. Or even read the manual. Yes its been hard to weed out real suggestions.

On the other hand, its nice to see the devs on a roll again in the new forum. They respond to peoples posts. The updates are coming regularly. Sometimes a players suggestion or bug report is changed on the progress log that same day.