Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(1)~ If you start at Medium Tech Start you will be close to what you desire GLV, please remember the AI will also be at a Medium Tech Start (However AI is slightly limited at onset)

(2) Your point is made with the Cobalt Warheads on Ram Ships GLV, however there are currently (NO) load restrictions and the values are basicly the same as stock se4.
With the addition of an option not a restriction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif


(3)~ I feel PTF is correct here, the intrinsic minerals, Rads and could be raised on the AIC Resource Station (a little) and this will play well with Fyrons FQM maps and should not have such a large impact on the General and AIC maps.

= = =

In general what I think would happen to se4 and any MOD with to much in the way of Robo-Minning.
Force other Human Players in a Multi-Player game to match a MINNING strategy; especially in a map with many asteroids and moons. With all this Micro-management required it may make a PBM game undesirable for many and a LAN game impossible to play in the latter game.
In a game with and against the AI, we know the AI can not build Robo-Miners as per se4 constraints and this will lead to the ability to yield large fleets and overpower the AI and change the balance of a Multiplayer game dramatically.

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With a modest amount resource extraction to be decided by the Players, we would like to see the classic asteroid system with the classic maps, an advantage to have; but not a game winning advantage.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you think using technology is cheating against AI, it can be checked off by game setup (research area). Similar to trade exploits, I do never trade with AI. Mines could be changed to be less destructive also - something like 50 maybe. Or PDF cannons could get some minesweeping ability - like in devnull. I think, if minefields are useless against AI hulls anyway, why bother to research and build them? Why not restrict the according research area at all in this case?

Component restrictions are removed altogether even to engines - especially with QNP, I like to be free to design whatever I like. Organic races should be able to create organic ships, a dreadnought with 3 org. armor components is ...
just not my game.

[ January 22, 2004, 19:21: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats not true. I do not recall which mod it was, but I have seen robo miner ships and stations in at least one mod a few years back...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point PTF,
Shutting off mines tech is the way to go in Solitaire, if one does not want Mines. However, in a Multiplayer game some players may not want it off.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Devnul is a awesome mod and sure that is an option, but the se4 Classic Mine strategy is not there for Humans versus Human Players. In addition when Devnuls Point Defence at 5 Mines sweeped it is actually almost doubled that of the AIC fixed AI Destroyer Hull MS capabilities of only 3. Now if we load several Devnul Pds that has no LOAD restriction to the AI design they can outsweep almost any AIC AI Hull.

AIC still attempts to preserve the se4 classic Minefield feel with out totally exploiting the AI.

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually you can put 5 Organic armors on any ship not 3, but I see your point.

I placed the restrictions to see how the new 1.84 se update could be utilized. Many like the Armor restrictions since AIC sports many Armour Configurations, but to be Honest with you, I also do not like this restriction and it is gone from Ships and Bases http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To be honest PTF, mine fields are also almost useless against many experienced Human se4 Players as well, would you not agree? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 20:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by Paul1980au:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What new ships designs would you suggest for AIC?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have an interesting concept here. The main problem as it is now, is that many concepts may not work with the AI.

For example Anti-Engine Mines.

The AI would be crippled not destroyed and stuck at that location (no more engines), yet costing large amounts of support resources and the AI is none the wiser http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Further example: In se4 the AI calls its designs to be built by :
Planet Per Item (PPI) and Must Have At Least… Please see reference.

In this example the AI has 5 Dreadnoughts even worse 2 Colony ships as well; disabled by anti-engine mines and unable to fulfill it missions. However the AI sees this and sure it wants them repaired, but it can not get it to return to a Repair Yard. However when the AI Construction File looks at the [Must Have At Least numbers] it has the 5 Dreadnoughts and 2 Colony ships and will not fulfill any Must Have At Least orders because the ships exist.

Please remember, this AI is paying resources for the 5 Dreadnoughts and in stock se4 where only the Best and/or Largest ships is built; this may halt a majority of that Ship Types Construction.
It will certainly slow or even Halt Colony Ship Production…

The AI Ship with disabled engines is a sad sight to see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
A designer must consider the PPI also when designing there AI race , however, not to the point where it will break the bank in the late mid to end game
(A planet may have many slots in se4, however many also only have one slot for that AI Minning Facility to support those large Capital Ships) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SJ is working on a MOD that may have an alternative to the way Mines are currently handled and I look forward to his work.


Other then that I would like to see the Minefeilds only be placed at Warp points as to represent an area that is funneled and congested so the mine hit will make sence (to me anyway), not in open space or a few in a planets vast orbit.


= = = = = = = = =
Reference

se4 Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles

Entry X Must Have At Least:
Must have this many of this type in existance, or being built.
If not, then build more.
This comes before Planet Per Item.

AI State := Infrastructure
Num Queue Entries := 39
Entry 1 Type := Defense Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 0
Entry 2 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 20
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 80
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 4 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := "
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := "

[ January 22, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed PTF, we will keep at it to make it better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">100 mines in a sector is the default with AIC as it is in se4, a larger setting is possible.
However the AI has a daunting task constructing and placing 100 mines per field, can you imagine the AI needing to double that effort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Yes the Human Player can load Mine Sweeper Components in total on Medium Transports, do you recommend this be restricted?

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for the presented issues, the best way to handle Restrictions would be a one by one basis.

Ram Ship Cobalt Warheads are not restricted in AIC and you also have the ability that is restricted in se4 lifted so in AIC you may load them in total on Transports, for a neat Horatio Nelson fire ship.

Organic Armour is at 5 max, this was all discussed many months ago about restricting armor. Moreover, I am also partial to lifting the armor restriction as well. However, other players were adament about this issue as it applies to haveing restrictions on armor.

The AI is not overly effected even by its current designs by any changes with armor restrictions; so sure we have total freedom here.
However, this may yield advantages to other race types. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Many felt that the Organics have the armor avantage at 5, plus combine this with other PvK v4.11 armors. Then the advantage is followed by the Crysteline...

The removal of the Armor restrictions will only play into the Temporals and Cryseline favor; races with early armor skiping weapons and further distence Psychic and other race advantages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In jest "I have tons of armor on my ships and your investment is worthless to my weapons" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
However their claims may be just nitpicking?

Remote Mining should be modest in nature.
However, what would you recommend for possible per turn ship/base gross robo-minning net numbers with a 100% planet value?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 23:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As PTF points out, you will have the option to turn off the mine tech and this works for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed, this is a great defense early in AIC because the AI will need more then 18 destroyers or a few carriers to blow thru one hundred mines.

It is unlikely 50 scouts or escorts even 30 or 40 Frigate can get thru a 100 minefield early in your AIC game.

Either way, any number of AI ships will sure tune up your minefield http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also to note: The AI has several standard minesweeper designs of its own and it know how to use them (at warp points) not as good over your planet...

However, once the AI fleets Fighter Carriers the chances are greatly increase the AI will penetrate a 100 Minefield http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember the Higher the AI Bonus the faster it will reach CV techs

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Absolutely, I also would prefer starting adjacent to a Human Player then a Medium to High Bonused (Psycho or Berserker) AIC AI major Player.
Even if we have OS* and MP* starting trait Options in play for that game.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 23:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">100 minefeilds are perfect

Minesweepers on transport are fine I see no reason to restrict this.

I am all for the removal of armor restrictions but then again I am a Temporal Race and this will be to my advantage. Plus the guys I play LAN games against, would like the edge they have with Organics. Besides with Component add numbers you are using se4 v1.84 update to its fullest.

You also may want to take a look at Cobalt Warheads, this may lead to exploits and restrict them somewhat.

Remote mining is good where it is IMO and AIC is designed for a more manageable ship count, raising the mining abilities will upset this and dig into LAN games.

[ January 23, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No restrictions to the number of components, IMO. If you think a component is overpowered, just change it to a bigger size or more expensive.
Devnull has got 500 mines per sector; it is always a matter of balancing minesweeping ability and size of minefields. I do not use it often, it is just a kind of Last resort sometimes in the early game.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't play finite resources, do you?