Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Don't forget Alaskians and Hawaiiites.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

HEY KWOK grab me another beer..

Munch Munch Munch...

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

?

This isn't a restaurant! Visit the Won-Ton if you want eats and drinks, or start your own restaurant!

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Alaska was purchased from Russia, who had conquered it, and Hawaii applied for admission to the US after they had a successful internal revolution by a bunch of plantation owners after the US raised tarrifs (Hawaii's application waited five years before it was approved - plenty of time to discover whether or not the new regime was going to quickly collapse, or itself get overthrown - it didn't). Texas joined the US in a manner similar to Hawaii.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

curse those stupid californians.

oh, and dont forget panamanians and philipinos. oh wait...

sorry. im really not opinionated, i just like to stir the fire (cause im a prick).

ignore me.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

If you were referring to sending me a PM, well it never arrived... If you weren't referring to me, sorry!

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

alarikf, we all know that your a Clinton fanatic so arguing with you about Clinton really is pointless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

that was AT sending a PM to me because a stupid typo avoided the swear word filter.

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Just doing my part for a greater Shrapnel Forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT (or is it?): American Imperialism
 

Nope. Clinton had a whole raft of problems and screw ups and I wouldn't vote for him today, and Bush has done a number of good things that I applaud him for. I'd like to think I'm a bit more objective about things than you imply. In fact, the heck with that. I KNOW I am a lot more objective than you.

And here's why: As always Atrocities, you make an inflammtory statement, then when you are rebutted with facts, you claim that "Oh, no need to be fanatical" or "I was just kidding" or "I don't really want to talk politics" or something like that that allows you to take the side door out of the debate and ironically sound high and mighty in so doing. Trust me - I do this for a living, and to those who actually talk and study politics it sounds clearly like you're afraid of actual substantive debates. You keep falling back on ad hominen attacks and divorcing yourself from rebutting the actual points made, instead you come up with some way out to save face. Hey, that's fine, but you can't do that and also claim your having a debate about the issues. You're not. You're just yelling fire in a crowded theater and leaving through the back while everyone responds.

Here's a thought experiment to try: when was the last time you changed your opinion about something based on a debate you had with someone on "the other side"?

Odds are, if most people are honest, they'll realize they have never changed their minds about something substantive except when it served their interests.

For me, at least two big instances come to mind immediately: I used to be fanatically pro-gun control. Conversations over the years with right wingers ahve convinced me of the merits (both philosophical and otherwise) of gun ownership. Heck, I even own a gun now.

I actually supported the Iraq war in the beginnging. So much that I was in Iraq for the first five weeks of the war as an embedded analyst with the Marines of 1st FSSG. (go guys! yay!). And, yes, I volunteered for it. Knowing what I know now, and the lies and missteps that have occurred, I realize what a mistake it was. (still very supportive of getting rid of Saddam, of course, but the other stuff we really screwed the pooch on...and for stupid and purely political reasons).

I am most likely in the process of changing my minds on school vouchers. Farm subsidies. I think we did the absolute right thing in Afghanistan (was in the mideast for that war too btw...)...I think we should have killed Saddam years ago...and, oh by the way, Clinton tried to (or did you forget that too?)...

Put your money where your mouth is. Respond to the FACTS - don't just take the side door out. If you are convinced of the rightness of your position, then you should be able to logically defend it and you should not be afraid to do so.

I'm waiting.