Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

@endoperez and rdonj: Ah I see. Well at least I know I wasn't completely crazy and imagined the whole thing with the cave people.

Well again I doubt a medieval bow made in medieval times could even approach something that quality wise to a modern one. The assumption that a medieval archer could be better than one with all the accessories seems dubious because in that particular example the question of the archers personal skill is not the key factor it appears in others minds which is what I was trying to get at. The weapons made in those days were simply not the quality to allow an archer assuming he could be that skilled to shoot in that manner precisely because he doesn't know how his next shot would behave. To assume that much relies on personal skill is to assume that those medieval longbows are essentially "perfect."

There were guilds that attempted to do so certainly it's where we get the surname Fletcher from, but given that so many things can go wrong when creating arrows relative to modern times I am simply not seeing any real accuracy coming from there. And in terms of the need to crank them out in the sheer numbers required even if they could technically do so they wouldn't be able to. Also many of these arrows wouldn't survive in reusable condition if tested in a bow used for warfare.

Well laid plans and training surviving combat in 100% percent capacity seem unlikely to me. Riding a bike on a battlefield is going to be a distinctly different experience. And as practiced as those steps could be there are still a lot of them with much less tolerance for variation. I can minimize my profile crouching with crossbow/firearm for instance and still maintain proper form. In terms of sheer number of things that can go wrong those weapons have them much much less than bows by removing how much human error can effect them. Can a longbowman draw a bow back to the same spot when wounded, when sick, when scared out of his mind? Because a crossbow must be drawn to the nut and cannot be anywhere else it is going to be in it's proper place every single time. Minimizing the effects human error is a very significant advantage.

Arrows have be balanced according to their bows. They have to be pulled the same way, every single time. You can't vary the pull as you claimed. The arrow will veer off in a *significant* manner. You won't have a smidgen of a hope of hitting anything. You will have negative hope. You will owe me some hope. That is how bad it will be.

It isn't that much greater because you could not maintain it and the number you implied was simply too high in any case. Add to the fact that they could not be as accurate and the quality per arrow even if they DID hit was simply not as good presents a different picture. There is a rate and an effective rate.


Crossbows are not cheap. Where do people get the notions that they were cheap? You need bowmaking skills to make the bow part of the weapon. You need someone to fashion the trigger and the small mechanics. Someone to fashion a tiller. Someone to make the string. Someone to make the device to reload the weapon. And the person to put it together could be completely different. With a bow one dude can make a bow and that is often how it was done. Someone who could produce a complete crossbow on his own was very rare and needed more people. People who had to be organized and communicate to one another. The sheer complexity of construction and the number of folks needed to be *paid* shows that this idea is faulty.

All medieval armies canvassed among their healthy citizens for soldiers and martial practice throughout their life was normal for multiple nations and so much of training is "free." This was the advantage of having troops bring their own weapons after all. When you have to start paying them yourself is when the costs rise up.

@Kamamura: Crossbows can do that too. Again there is no indirect specialty of the bow. There are helmets recovered from Wisby penetrated by bolts that came down I believe.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

I think the point Kamamura is trying to make was that wasting crossmen men to simply saturate a field indirectly is pointless. Where the longbow is more easily fielded (think AK-47's), the crossbow due to it's higher cost and greater precision fire seems to be more like a sniper rifle.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

Hmm, I didn't quite mean it that way. What I was trying to say that I think training an archer on a longbow as opposed to a compound bow would be better in the long run for the archer, because it would foster more the personal skill of the archer. With a compound bow you rely on a lot of crutches to maximize your accuracy. Sights on your bow that can and frequently do come loose from the force expended in firing. Special release triggers that could break in the middle of battle or get lost in a baggage train. All those niggling little things in that article you linked. Everything we do with the modern compound bow is to make the shot rely as little on the archer and as much on the bow as possible... which would make it very easy for everything to fall apart if something is misaligned. If you're just relying on yourself and you're used to relying on yourself, it's a lot easier to compensate than when you've not trained yourself how to. When everything is working properly with the compound bow you'll have great accuracy, but when things get misaligned you have to spend a significant amount of time retuning the equipment.

And I am somewhat doubtful that an archer would not know how his next shot would behave. That seems unlikely to me. While it is true that back then they didn't have the same kind of quality control that we did I am not so sure that some small imperfections in the crafting of the bow would have such a drastic effect on its accuracy. A bow made by some random peasant who's never made a bow before, sure, I'll agree it's probably not going to come out very well. But a bow made by someone who knows what they're doing, that's a bit different of a story. Besides, having used the bow for hours and hours of practice you would learn if your bow maybe shoots a bit to the left, or a bit high, etc. You would learn how to compensate for any small degree of imperfection. Or you would use the bow for firewood if it just can't shoot straight. Although really, I don't think there's a whole lot that can go terribly wrong in the making of the bow itself... it would seem to me that their biggest problem hundreds of years ago would be in the bowstring.


I agree with you to a point here. There's just no way that they could have enough competent fletchers making enough high quality arrows designed specifically for each different bow every man in an army is using personally and supply them for any reasonable period of time. Chances are they mass produced arrows to a specific length, and if you wanted perfectly made arrows for you and your bow you'd have to make them yourself. I'm not sure the arrows wouldn't survive though, if you're testing on a hay bale for example, it's unlikely to damage the arrow itself though I wouldn't be too surprised if the fletchings were damaged.


I still think you overestimate just how hard it is to fire a bow properly ;). The difference between a perfect shot and a middling-good shot (which is most of what you should be getting in battlefield conditions at moderate range, I think), is with the perfect shot you hit the guy in the middle of the torso. With the middling shot you might hit him in the arm, stomach, or maybe a leg. With a very poor shot, you'll go over his head, hit the ground in front of him, or the arrow will fly off to a side... and two of those shots still have a chance to hit someone else. Plus if you're shooting into a packed mass of soldiers like at agincourt it would be hard to miss completely and not hit anyone at all. And at least while you're not being shot at and people aren't close enough to stab you, it should not be too hard to fire properly. Taking the example of the bike in a battlefield... are you going to forget how to ride? Maybe you'll exaggerate some of the motions. Maybe with all the adrenaline you'll fall off trying to ride away while someone's shooting in your general direction. But then you'll get back on the bike and keep on peddling. I will freely admit there's more chance of human error with a bow, and less ease of profile minimalization. Those are unfortunate drawbacks to the weapon.

Depends where, probably not but depends on how sick, probably because you train to pull the bow back to the same spot every time, and if you were too scared to do that you'd probably be running for dear life :). Let's reverse that, crossbows have a higher draw weight per bow strength than an ordinary bow has, and required mechanical means to draw them. Could a crossbowman draw his crossbow when sick, wounded, or scared out of his mind? I would guess the answers are pretty similar to mine for the longbow actually, though I admit to never having fired a crossbow, particularly a medieval crossbow.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

This is an assumption I just plain disagree with. It is patronising at the very least to assume that because medieval craftsmen lacked modern technology they couldn't work wood to a high standard.


Again I dipute this blanket assumption that medieval skills couldn't make an arrow tht would fly true.

I will agree, though, that goods mass produced for the military were likely to be substandard. As noted elsewhere, though, it may well be the case that battlefield longbow use was more about hitting an area reliably than about precision targetting of individuals. In which case the point is more or less moot.

I believe that's down to training, in much the same way as modern armies do it. Since military training was being done pretty darn well by the 1st century BC, I don't think this argument holds very much water.


I have to agree. I haven't done much archery, but this agrees with what I have done. Besides, if you don't pull as hard on the bow then the arrow won't have as much kinetic energy behind it and won't be very effective.

Ooh, sounds a bit like an assembly line. You know, one of those manufacturing techniques that reduces cost due to increased efficiency? (not that crossbows wouldn't still be expensive, of course)
Please note: the guy you're quoting specified that the costs he mentioned weren't financial but the availability of trained men and speed of bow manufacture.


I do see one big advantage to feudal lords for the crossbow - most peasants aren't going to own them because of the price. Not having a workforce who can shoot you if they don't like your taxes is a Good Thing.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

heh you ask me we have lost plenty of knowledge from past ages in all aspects of art, construction and science and skill and craftsmanship has gone down.

Mass production has seen to that. Scientific undertanding of a subject does not = practical ability. And there are plenty of things that we cannot match the quality of today. from violins to swords to construction techniques. Architecture is probably the most striking example though.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

Well, you didn't imagine the part about the agarthans. The rest of it is dubious.

Dude. I made a fully functional crossbow, that would penetrate 2" of wood in 5th grade.

The "bow" part of the weapon is called a stock. And no, you don't need any particular bowyer skill.

I think you have *no* general idea of the level of complexity that societies of the time were capable of generating. For example, looms of the times had up to ***10,000*** moving parts.
To think that societies couldn't crank out crossbows with 10-24 parts cheaply is .. simply laughable.

The reason looms were successful is the same reason that crossbows were successful. Large amounts of standardized parts could be cranked out, and assembled, quickly and cheaply.

And yes, compared to knights, sappers, artillerymen, crossbowmen *were* cheap.

Crossbowmen had essentially no need to train. These troops were often raised in mere weeks, vs. the years required to gain excellence with the longbow. Because they had virtually no training - they were easier to raise, deployable from virtually any population. And when killed they were easily replaceable.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

Considering the people of the medieval and ancient era managed to do stuff as complex as build Hagia Sophia, make Attic pottery and craft intricate jewellery, I think we can expect the average medieval bowyer to be able to make a pretty reliable bow. I suspect a trained archer could also adapt to a new bow of the same basic design pretty quickly.

I saw some program where a modern guy did horse archery and could fairly reliably hit a conventional archery target at 30 yards or so whilst the horse was moving. Also, if you consider an archer has to hit a block of infantry/cavalry however much wide and maybe 4-10 ranks deep, he's got a fair bit of room for inaccuracy.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

And then imagine that the ancient horse archer were born on horseback with a bow as their first toy, and I say would say accuracy would not be a problem. :)

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

The English longbow did not need the years of training in order to get the archers to hit the target. It needed that to build up the muscles to pull a 120lbs+ longbow - resulting in bone deformities found on medieval skeletons.
And you needed that strength to punch through any armor.

As comparison, modern bows are much lighter. Entry-level adult bows are usually around 40 lbs (pound force, 4.54N), the ones used by the average hobbyists are 60-80, be they of whatever type. 40-60lbs bows in the medieval were used by the womenfolk of castles - for hunting and last-ditch defense. And much less effective in combat - shorter range and penetrating power. I was shooting a 40lbs bow and it had hard time penetrate 1" pine from 20 yards or so, FWIW.

OTOH. Get a crossbow and an average medieval youth, with strong muscles from physical work. Longbows have to be pulled by upper body, while crossbows are pulled by (stronger) leg muscles or windlass. You get the range and penetrating power (as in 80lbs+) you need without too much of training and could trump the range and power of any long bow with a crossbow strong enough. Granted, you need the resources to field 3 crossbowmen for each longbowmen for the same ROF - but they would need about the same amount of ammunition for comparable effect.

Of course, if your king orders archery to be a national pastime for every commoner, and your society is suitable for it - e.g. a peasantry not oppressed as much as the serfs in continental Europe thus less likely to revolt - an island nation should go for longbow.

Just my two cents.

Re: Crossbows vs. Longbows
 

Again personal skill cannot overcome mechanical disadvantages because an archer does not control his arrow in mid flight. There is only so much he can do. And relying on mechanical aid is a good thing. A human being is more likely to be inconsistent than a misaligned machine because at least a misaligned machine is much more likely to be inconsistent the same way.


Is a soldier going to be able to keep the same bow he has on the field and "forever?" Is the soldier going sure of the quality of the arrows? Even if the soldier had the same bow and we were assured it's quality was constant so he could "get use to it" he couldn't be sure of the quality of his arrows and if you admit variances within the bow then you know that the arrows themselves cannot be truly right for it. To truly know how your bow "behaves" you have to assume that arrows were a constant quality which you yourself admit that would be problematic in the paragraph after this one.


And wouldn't you say a bike relies a lot on "mechanical aid?" Such that the level of inputs you put in to get a bike to work is much less than one you need to get a bow to "work." I think you are underestimating the raw fear that a battlefield instills in somebody. A musket is considered an easy to use weapon but there are plenty of instances where weapons have been found with multiple loads in them due to panic.

Also you assume that a missed arrow that still hits somebody is the same quality of one that hits an intended target directly. The very nature of how an arrow leaves the bow has a great effect on its character. I think your assumption that the arrow wouldn't vary that much is too optimistic and the implication that an "off" arrow is just as good as a direct arrow is too ambitious as well. The rush and panic to pump out arrows is likely to mean that the archers aren't pulling as far as they need to leading to significant veering and falling short.

Being sick and sapped for strength would make the elbow grease required to load a crossbow problematic yes, but crossbows have periods of rest (when it's loaded) to help compensate. Since the range of motion required is not as involved you are more likely to be able to load it compared to drawing and shooting a bow and since you cannot screw up form since the string must be pulled to the nut (same spot) unlike a longbow which relies on the archer. The less things a human can screw up the better.

High standard compared to what? How could a medieval craftsmen compete with new materials made with computer modeling? How is that notion patronizing? And again the major issue here is consistency. Even if they were high standard were they all the same kind of standard? The arrow and the bow are simply too dependent upon one another. And even if you could achieve perfection you notice the bending of the arrow along it's node points prevent a truly exact hit because of it's inherent buckling and the flopping of the head of the arrow makes it much less likely for a truly direct contact.

Your assertion only works if getting it into that area is a given and it simply isn't. And a cohesive volley is more effective and you don't get that without "precision."

The problem with this statement is that more modern armies with "slow easy to use weapons," the imperialistic powers with their guns tore indigenous populations using the old school a new one. Your argument would only hold water if the quality of these old school armies like India with it's longbows would be smacking around those powers using that old timey shooty magic. I don't see what your saying holding water unless a delorean full of Uzis is involved.

Well he says otherwise in a later post LOL. But anyway an assembly line cannot be compared to individual dedicated craftsmen. Regular bows were easier to pump out I mean a lot of these composite crossbows used whale bone. Do you think it's easier to get a whale, kill it, remove it's whaley meats, get the bone, and craft the bone than to chop down a tree? Plus crossbows needed wood for that composite (yew) so you had to chop down tree too. I'm telling you no way in heck can crossbows be cheaper.

Unruly peasants were always a problem however, longbowmen were not true peasants but belonged to a class called Franklins. The whole longbowmen was a mere peasant thing fighting snooty nobles for FREEEEEDOOOOM is somewhat of a historical revisionism with a political axe to grind. The majority of true peasants were still quite screwed.

Huh? Err you honestly don't think a sky scraper or a space station is more impressive and requires more practical ability than what they had in the middle ages? Scientific understanding is what refines and takes "practical ability" to new heights. And they can make carbon nanotube blades now I believe. If you had modern day sword guy vs. medieval sword guy assuming equal skill medieval sword guy would lose...badly. Even without the modern stuff the mere superior health of the modern guy would be enough. It is silly to think that some guy in medieval times can crank out a better bow than one produced with all the materials technology, computers, and techniques of today. Medieval craftsmen were not Mentats.

Radical? Cowabunga? What is this suppose to tell me again?

No. The "bow" part as in the limbs were the magic shooty elves live is the prod or lath. The stock is called the tiller. You need bowyer skill as well as other folks. Also chicks dig guys with skills.

Looms come in many varieties like simple hand looms. You're making it sound like the 10,000 part uber loom is the norm for these peoples like a washing machine for the average peasant. Not to mention a loom is constantly producing a good recuperating its cost. A crossbow comes from a series of parts produced by dedicated craftsmen who want to be PAID and who need materials who are collected by people who also need to be paid and has to be made over and over again. And if you are judging parts as cost well how many "parts" does a regular bow have?

Doesn't work like that in those days. You cannot compare dedicated medieval craftsmen to modern day assembly.

A knight of "gentle birth" is going to need money yes obviously but a sapper? And artilleryman as an "engineer" type or generic mook to carry and help assemble? LOL no. Crossbowmen were not cheap. Their wages were high and the weapon themselves ensure that.

GWAHAHAHAHA! Easier to use does not mean "easy for everybody." This is not reflected in their wages as they made on average three times as much as "normal soldier" and being "number one crossbowman" was like being a minor noble in several countries. You fall under the fallacy that being easier to acclimate to a weapon implies that mastery is not possible or desirable. A modern day soldier's weapon is easier then either a longbow or crossbow. They still need to train and maintain their skills and yes there is difference between a Marine and some hobo you gave a gun to and dumped on a battlefield.


@Agema and P3D
Already addressed above and before as well.