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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:

The only redeeming quality of this idea is that it so neuters the PPB that people will stop using it. Over time this will translate into more players using shields and stopping with the high end normal shields. The sneaky player inside me sees this as an opportunity to pull a switch on someone at a crucial moment in a game and catch their heavily normally shielded fleet with their pants down.

What you just described is EXACTLY why I think the PPB should be a niche weapon, and not a mainline weapon...

edit: Hey, look, my rating just dropped! Did I offend somebody?

[ July 24, 2003, 22:16: Message edited by: spoon ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Spoon, that was exactly the point of my suggestion (as per my previous post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

I'll definitely start an SE3 mod later on.

However, minor changes only here people!

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

I am reading through this thread and I get the sense that mostly weapons are out of balance. I have to disagree.
What main features make the game unbalanced?
Are there any setup that favor one stratgy over another?
(KOTH everyone wants max ATTACK and DEFENSE)
Are you aiming to make everything balanced at every point in the Game? at this point I can see
1 Talisman toned down
2 the Planet shields helped
3 Point defense toned down
4 Sensors changed

Why would you mess with the weapons?
Has any one gotten into a long game?
And has anyone used All the tech you can research?

I really get the feeling that this thread is getting wrapped around the Weapons axial.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

That is because the weapons system has a lot of major holes in it... only APBs (out of non-racial weapons) are very effective in large games. There, efficiency is king. APBs get the most bang for the buck and the most bang for the size, and so win out in pretty much all situations (except some rare WP defense situations, but then, those defender ships suck in other locations).

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Yes Fyron, the organization of the components in Adamant mod is done well. Devnullmod has also nice arrangement and more stock SE4 components (easier to copy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

One thing which also should be changed is supply amount that supply storages can store. At the beginning of the game it's ridiculous that you can squeeze an engine and 500 supply to 10kT but it requires 20kT to store nothing but 500 supply. And even if you have supply storage III engines can still store the same amount of supply per kT.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

It does not take long at all to reorganize the comps. In fact, I shall make a Version ordered about the same as Adamant right now, in case we want to use it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Actually, as Rollo pointed out in #se4, reordering the comps will cause all savegames to not be upgradeable, so if we are to get this to be used for stock SE4, reordering isn't going to happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 24, 2003, 23:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
That said, however, I would much prefer there to be choices at each stage of the game rather than a simple formula to follow.

Well, I cetainly can see your point, I just disagree with it. In my mind having several basically equal weapons to choose from at any one time isn't really important. Yes it gives you a choice, but which choice you make is irrelevant. Since each one is more or less equal, they become interchangeable.

With the type of balance I am suggesting you still have choices. Any of the mainline weapons could be valid options at the end of the game, but they wouldn't be equal on a one for one basis. Different weapons would require different stratagies to take advantage of their strengths. One better at short range, one at long. One good for small fleets of powerful but expensive warships. One better for massive fleets of cheap, expendable "cannon fodder". I'll admit my vision of balance would be much harder to acchieve, but in my opinion it lends for a richer game.

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Geo, that is EXACTLY how PPBs worked in SE3, and they worked beautifully there IMO. They should not be a mainline weapon, they should be a support type weapon, only useful in some situations.

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
What you just described is EXACTLY why I think the PPB should be a niche weapon, and not a mainline weapon...

If you guys want to have a discussion about whether or not the PPB should have remained a niche weapon in SE4, I may end up agreeing with you. But the fact is it is not a niche weapon for SE4, and hasn't been for almost three years now. It's asking a lot to get people to accept totally nerfing the weapon now at this late date.

Personally I don't care. As I said the game to me is more about strategy then weapon choice. But the only way this has a shot of working is if it's not strongly objectionable to a large percentage of the players. Not to mention any of the stock AI's that are designed aroung the PPB as a mainline weapon, I believe there are at least a couple, will have to be totally reworked, research and designs.

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
As it is now, they are so powerful that they become main line weapons, with really no decisions to make at all. Increasing choices to be made is ALWAYS a good idea (except when you increase from 30 to 40 choices or something ludicrous, ofc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them instead of totally nerfing them we can give players some more descisions to make without taking away the PPB as a mainline weapon option.

Remember this mod is all about concensus and compromise. Six months ago I was insisting that PPB were fine as they are and didn't need changed. Part of me still believes that, but in the interests of actually getting something accomplished I am attempting to reach a middle ground. But your position is a bit to radical for me. It's fine and all for you and you are free to do it in your mods. I might even like it in a mod. But trying to wedge that much change into the stock game, or even into a general widely distributed balance mod is going to be a tough sell.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2003, 00:33: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?<hr /></blockquote>Such as what I suggested earlier in this thread, and what others have suggested as well. Increasing the research costs somewhat. Smoothing out the giant jumps between level 1 and 2 for starters. Perhaps decreasing the range in the earlier levels and making the weapon a bit more expensive. And perhaps even a small overall decrease in power at every level. Not suggesting all of those, but any two or three would do a lot to make give the other weapons more of a shot of being decent choices in comparison.

Geoschmo