Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Sorry, I was away from my comp/didn't get the message in time. I am usually on twice a day, but it is possible for me to miss something in between. Though most seemed OK with current schedule we may need to jump ahead to 48 hours prior to turn 20. Don't want to see Atlantis staling especially.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I wont stale any more but for this time I was something like 5 minutes short:doh::doh::doh: : my Dom crashed the first time I tried to upload and when I retried it was already the next turn. Anyway this is my fault, I shouldn't have been so late.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

When I try to connect to upload my turn, the game says:

"connection failed
The dominion server or your connection to the internet might be down. Also make sure you entered the correct ip-adress (70.36.184.129) and port number number (10333)"

I'll try again later...

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Nah, I don't agree. Give mictlan the choice of a gorgon or an oracle and he'll still go oracle.

Prince of Death, Immortal Oracle, Master Druid for Niefle in CBM.

Don't get me wrong - I like the gorgon - but its not a once size fits all.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I still cant prefer Gorgon for EA or MA Pangaea even though its often recomended. Id much rather play Carrion Dragon or Lord of the Wild (depending on which Pangaea strategy Im going with)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Though a great expander vs. indies, the Gorgon is also rather fragile. So a shield or other equipment I believe is recommended early on.

Well, the AI seems to be tearing us (Children of Crom) a new butthole. :o :shock:

Gandalf, I can honestly say this is the most challenging AI I have ever played against in Dom3. You've done your job well, probably too well. :D

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I did mean that in the context (from the post I was responding to) of those nations who had access to the Gorgon.

And obviously Gorgon is no longer as good in CBM, since he's 150 points instead of 50 points! The problem with the Gorgon at 50pts is you can have an awake SC, an E9N4 bless, and decent scales all at the same time.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Could resist when saw this... Yeah, nerfing is the point of "balancing" - things which are good and powerful are called imba, then nerfed then become worthless and then another "imba" is found. This process is endless - cutting off the functionality instead of adding new one. This is a well known way of "balancing", already seen in many games which generally leads nowhere. In the end you will have 2 equal troops and 2 equal commanders - an ideally balanced game.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I refer to that as "chess balance". Ending up with two perfectly matched nations wearing different colors. Many strategy games go with that and I wont knock it but I tend not to prefer it.

As far as imba and nerf Ive seen the same in online worlds which Ive been involved with since their birth (text mode before Internet existed). The adders, and the subtractors. Adders tend to be players who recently gained editing access. Subtractors tend to be old timers who know that all-adding is a never ending climb which is good but they can turn cynical. The best editing is done by a group which is willing (a rare event) to not select based on their own preference for add or subtract but to allow both equal reign. Its still never-ending but the alternative is stagnation.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Thats nice to know.
I take it that instructions of "Newbies and Vets III with level 10 AI no-holds-barred" is going to be slightly modified?
If so, no problem. Im thinking along the lines of a separate level 10 game.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Have you even looked at CBM's pretenders?

Options which were too powerful got reigned in. They had to be. You couldn't boost every other option up to their level.

But options which were too weak got boosted, sometimes substantially. They were made cheaper, given more magic, and sometimes new abilities.

The point is to make every pretender an equally good buy. Now, a given nation is going to prefer a certain set of pretenders, but that's based purely on the exigencies of the nation, not the cost of the pretender. (ie, situation creates preferences, not poor pricing).

You (and Gandalf) seem to not know what you're talking about when you refer to chess style balancing with regards to CBM. CBM has done more boosting than nerfing overall, including to pretenders. But sometimes a pretender is so far out of line that it needs to be nerfed back to reasonableness. Gorgon was one such. But to say that all CBM does is nerf is to ignore improvements to chasses like the rainbows and dozens of others. The very briefest inspection would quickly disprove that CBM has made all pretenders the same.

It wasn't that Gorgon was "good and powerful", it was *too good* for the points. Its still just as powerful, its now also costed appropriately. It was the only pretender which let you take a major bless on an awake Dom 9 SC and not tank your scales. Basically, you should get what you pay for, nothing more and nothing less. I for one vastly prefer a situation where there are multiple good options to choose from, not one option that is so obviously the best one as to make the others meaningless.

Alternately, maybe you'd care to explain what you'd do to improve other pretender options to be as good a deal as Gorgon. Say, frost father.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I have no argument that CBM evens out things like pretenders. That type of one-to-one balancing is what makes cbm very useful for challenge games.

As far as Frost Father that surprises me. Its one of the few pretenders that work for insane bless levels.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Frost Father is the rainbow chassis. You're thinking of Father of Winters.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
But I meant Frost Father. He is one of the few that can get 3x9 plus some left over (if you want to pay for it). And of the ones that could get there, he had some other features that could be worked to his advantage over the other choices.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

The following assumes vanilla for all pretenders:
An imprisoned dom 5 3x9 Frost Father requires -12 net scales in vanilla... Hardly an optimal bless chassis, and I wouldn't say there's much left over there. Even assuming a rainbow, you can do the same with a Great Enchantress, except you get a better bless and a pearl every turn. (E9S9X9 >> W9A9X9)

For one extra negative scale, we can have a great mother with E9N9X9 (great bless!). Of course, E9X9N8 is probably better for a lot of nations, so we squeeze out some extra dominion or only -11 scales instead.

You could take a Phoenix with identical build style (dom5, 3x9, imprisoned, -12 scales), have at least an equivalent bless (F9A9X9), and a better pretender chassis (flying, immortal). Also in this category: Titan (A9E9X9, and its a titan chassis so it can be an SC when it wakes up), Keeper of the Bridge (A9E9X9, Titan Chassis), Moloch (F9B9X9, Dom 6!, great chassis), Mother of Tuathas (A9N9X9, titan), Destroyer of Worlds (A9D9X9, titan, 4 arms!), and so on...

With similar build but better blesses (and chasses), there's the Lady of Love (W9N9X9, titan chassis, Awe+4), Mother of Serpents (D9N9X9, titan chassis), PoD (D9X9Y9 - more versatile, excellent chassis), Mother of Spring (W9N9X9, titan chassis, produces water gems), Lord of the Forest (E9N9X9, titan chassis, dom summons animals), Father of Serpents (D9N9X9, Titan, good stats), Lord of Plenty (E9S9X9! titan), Scorpion King (F9E9X9!, great chassis), and so on...

Getting more efficient at 3x9 blesses, we have the master lich (Dom5, only -11 scales), and its also immortal. There's also the Lord of Rebirth (E9N9D9, titan chassis, -11 scales, Dom 6!), Colossal Head (N9B9X9, -11 scales, Dom 6), Smoking Mirror (F9D9B9, -10 scales, Dom 6!! Of course, you probably take B8 instead of B9 and grab more dominion), Jade Emperor (W9A9S9, Titan, -10 scales), Lady of Fortune (W9S9X9, -11 scales, titan), and so on.

Of course, you could just take a monolith, get Dom 6, and only need to take -11 net scales. Oh yeah, and still have a better bless. (S9N9X9 >> W9A9X9).

Or there's the perennial favorite, Oracle, which with -12 scales and a very versatile triple bless (S9X9Y9) can also swing Dom 9. Not only is it one of the best triple bless chasses in the game, its also available to most nations. Its best competition is Divine Glyph, which is slightly cheaper (Dom 10 with -12 scales), but its bless is more constrained (F9S9X9). Fountain of Blood is just as efficient as the Oracle, but you get B9 instead of S9 (worse bless). Sacred Statue is also S9X9Y9, but slightly more expensive because of chassis cost.

Getting a 3x9 bless is easy, and frost father is one of the *worst* chasses for it.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I have. And even played with them in MP. And I think they're pretty good and balanced. Maybe the forge lord is a bit too powerful but still ok. If you ever recall my words, I always said that CBM is a very good mod. The only problem with it is that it is not balanced. And it is really so no matter what the reasons and perspectives of CBM development are.
And I don't want to argue anymore. You're hard to talk with because you're too maximalistic and I don't like emotional discussions at all :). But that was interesting, thanks.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I agree that CBM is not balanced. I don't even think it should strive for perfect balance, as to me that would make the game much less interesting. It is the great variety of things you can do in this game that has kept me interested in it. That said, vanilla is much less balanced to the point where a lot of things are very boring and overdone, and unless you want to RPG in a competetive MP setting, just not avoidable as options. Of course you can do anything you want in SP, but in SP balance doesn't matter at all.

So to me, the benefits are that CBM improves the number of effective and flavorful strategies that can be employed in competitive games, removes clams, and allows you to use pretenders that are just not effective at anything in vanilla. Making some of the most powerful nations less overpowered is a nice bonus too. Obviously this part could still use some work, as there are certain nations that are still regularly banned in MP for just being plain unfun to fight against. And there are certain nations that could use some boosts, which hopefully some of will occur in the next version of CBM. We can only hope, in any case. QM has resisted some of them probably due to a theme element, but with the removal of gem gens some spells are just plain overpriced and could use some price cuts.

Anyway, CBM has a very significant place, and that place IMO is to keep dominions interesting in the MP arena. Even if you are not a competitive player (I am definitely not) CBM helps keep things fresh and fun, and has done a lot to enhance my gameplay experience.



Edit: But seriously, why are we having this discussion here? An MP thread is a really dumb place for such conversations.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Well I would never do a "no holds barred AI" :D in any game, we must obviously have some holds if we want human players to have a chance. For this series, Noobs make up a significant number of the players, so we must continue to keep that in mind.

It's still early in the game and with a tougher AI and fewer human players I expect it will take longer to get a grip on the AI in this one (last game was into the 30's before the AI was completely vanquished), but I'll just likely recommend a slight toning down of the AI in terms of PD if used and perhaps unit production capacity. Overall I want the AI to get progressively and proportionately tougher (though it won't actually get any smarter) but we will need to try to ensure we balance the AI component with the human MP component. Success vs. the AI should play an important strategic role giving the successful human team an advantage going into the human vs human phase.

The AI can be boosted in other ways though: Retain the mixed units (I like that) maybe mix it up even more if possible, introduction of one or two powerful units as AI commanders perhaps (i.e. fewer mammoth type creatures, more commanders), if we go with 3 nation human teams, the AI can have a fourth nation (3x3x3x3x4), the planned game settings will also help.

Lets see how things go though so that we can judge things a bit more accurately and make adjustments as needed.

That being said, a seperate vs. AI only game might also be fun. An RPG'er where a few desperate human played nations band together in a last stand of sorts and square off against incredible odds with endless mighty hordes of AI warriors. The human players are outnumbered, outgunned, but have a few bonuses (like a special commander or something) that they must use wisely. I actually would enjoy that type of under seige type game as well. Defeating the AI, or lasting for x number of turns being the only goal.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Septimius Severus
Actually you shouldn't have attacked Man without means to defeat him. Obviously, Gandalf's AIs are defensive and do not attack first.
That is the main reason of your current situation. And the second one is a bit unwise expansion. That's my opinion.

Correct! Hehe, even though these AIs are beefed up (thus not typical of SP games), one of the great things noobs are learning in this game is how, when, and where to attack the AI and even how to use the AI to their advantage, clearing out indies, driving em into other teams, etc. I personally have very little SP (vs. AI) experience, so this is great for me.

What I'm thinking about in the above post is a concern you expressed earlier, the balancing of the vs. AI component with the human vs. human component. Both of which are important. Don't think it will be an issue though. As I say lets see how things go.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

This game has become a "who-kills-the-AI-faster". That's what I don't like about it :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

The team that can grab the most indies gets the first advantage (this is where having awake SC pretenders comes in handy and why early expansion is so important), but the team that is behind in that phase can make up for it in the vs. AI phase, if their experience vs. the AI is good.

Thus far, the team that has wisely held off on attacking the AI and used them to their advantage or had better coordination if they did attack the AI, and has expanded well vs. indies, currently has the advantage. Children of Crom perhaps made some early mistakes, but learning is part of the fun and goal, we are a stout and brave group, and our lord Crom would likely not have it any other way. Overall, I am proud of the players on my team, they generally communicated well and I am generally quite free in allowing players to do what they want, if we go down, it will be with honor and glory, as warriors should perish. :D

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

[quote=Septimius Severus;748029]And that is the problem, oh Emperor! :p
Though I, too, think that now we can put up some real fight. ;)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

[quote=Wrana;748037]Hehe. I'm a game admin first, captain second! :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Well, I guess some exceptions have to confirm the rule, then

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I believe the Children of Crom attacked AI first

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I wouldnt read too much into this. Im learning many things that can be done with the AI. And many things it does or doesnt do well to work with or work around. But some things are still being worked out.

The game still sets the AIs disposition as defensive, aggressive, or default.
The game still decides if the god I give the AI will be awake, sleep, or jailed.
The game still chooses the first Prophet.
The game still sets initial goals.

But I am learning how to get around some of that which could be used in the next game (or an AI challenge game). This games AI was discussed quite helpfully in one of the Dom3 IRC channels. For the next I was going to bounce some things off of Endoperez, Ballbarian, Stavros,NTJedi and some other people who have done some research into boosting the AIs.

I am abit disappointed if the game set the AIs all on defensive. In the tests they were mostly aggressive and the initial goal was well chosen. When the scoreboard shows that the AI is more whipped I will go into some details on that.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Gandalf, if this AI was aggressive on top of everything else, I would be the first to just give up all this.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Gandalf
Stats script is displaying so nice things at the moment
like
I believe the game is being hosted. But still funny :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

As far as I see, they do not attack other nations first, unless the latter seem weak. Then they charge in in a typical AI fashion. With mammoths that can be quite scary. :) If they charged earlier, they could just roll over me, for example. I'm not that experienced with Ulm.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Was hoping for aggressive as well, though if the case, starting armies might need to be tweeked to prevent them overwhelming the players (like removing the mammoths). Don't want the AI to be easily rushable, but also don't want players to get rushed either. The AI seems to follow the path of least resistance apparently, at least that was my early belief.

Ano maybe you should sign up for Gandalf's AI challenge game if it is made.;) Could be fun, 3-4 human players, surrounded by 6-8 AI nations. Hopelessly and desperately outnumbered, on a small map, surrounded by the AI on all sides, the players make their last stand and are given 3 or 4 starting provinces, a powerful commander, a handful of Eternal Knights, and a kiss for good luck! :)

Several of those games could be run simultaneously, with the group of players lasting the longest before being massacred declared the winner. Might be good practice for game 3.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I would be interested but couldn't play for a long time.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

If this is still applicable I'm up for it. Never played MP before though if that matters.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Hmm... I think I'm willing to posit that under the circumstances described, (CBM, 3-4 provinces, a hero, and at least 2-3 buffer territories between AI and player,) AND gandalf not knowing what nations were to be played, that good players could beat any strength AI.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

A short zone between players might seem that way. But part of the boosting usually involves giving extra commanders and armies to the AI. So it would probably be possible to create an AI that would be a problem. Especially if set to aggressive and given a direct goal to work in that direction. Extremely easy and extremely hard are equally simple to do. Its making it possible to beat but a challenge that is hard to get right.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Yes it is so. The team is Children of Crom and we could use another alternate to sub for Marignon. Welcome Finalgenesis. If interested, stop by the team forums (link below), register, and I'll get you squared away, also check out the first post of this thread for info on the game:

http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Done, pending approval. I read up the setting and d/led the mod / map. I'll see you on silverforum. Meanwhile I should sign the player pledge.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Actually, I do not think it would take a long time. ;)
And count me in as well - though, of course, in this case I will take an awake Pretender! ;)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Ashdod is down to 1 province!
Pan is down to 2.
Indies are down to 3.

Set has 71 territories! This is head and shoulders above all other parties.

It has 40% more forts than its closest competitor.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Your account is approved. Strange, I seemed to have gotten 3 or 4 different activation e-mails for you. If you can set up your PM options here, it might be helpful as well, as I often prefer to use Shrapnel for PMs. Welcome.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Usurpers have 56 and are way ahead in research which is probably one of the main things that matter.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Bah, thats just untruthful propaganda.

R = F($)

$ <<< F(R)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

We'd gladly trade some of our income for some of your research, really :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

My research is more precious to me than diamonds!

Mine, all mine, my own, my precious! *glares at Ano*

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Starting next turn, the hosting interval goes to 48 hours.

Have done some preliminary work on the 3 variations of the Nataraja for the Heavenly, Earthly, and Underworld realms for game 3. Each has appropriate Awe, Fear, Animal Awe +5 and resistance = 100. Not sure of the costing or the resistances yet, but if you have a suggestion feel free to let me know.

http://i49.tinypic.com/16iv82h.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/34sp8n7.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/x6gevd.jpg

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Septimius, it seems to me that you like game planning much more than actually playing. While I can understand it, it's still very strange :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Yes, I enjoy organizing, planning, creating, etc, a great deal, perhaps even more than playing. But of course, I probably wouldn't bother if I didn't enjoy playing or I thought the game wasn't worth it.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Hey are you guys still looking for a sub? Ive squared off everything with my computer after lengthy face-to-wall activity.

So yeah, if you are i'd like to play.

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

I doubt that Mari position is very promising but you still can put up some fight with the AI. We all fight against AI here.... :)

Re: Noobs and Vets II: Days of Infamy. MA, BI. In Progress.
 

Current VPs:

Supplicants of Set: 8
A.I.T.E.A.M.: 7
Usurpers: 4
Children of Crom: 4
AI Sanguinarium: 3

AI Pangaea is dead (main post updated)
Eriu, almost finished.

Shinuyama looking great.

Ashdod making a comeback.

Atlantis seems to have taken a beating lately but is still hanging in there.