Re: MBT's
 

South Korea could also donate the 33 T-80s they got as a part exchange from Russia to settle a trade debt, those things must be total orphans in thier tank fleet...

Re: MBT's
 

Forgot about those. I believe S. Korea just retired them in the last couple of years.

The real upside is S. Korea has taken good care of them as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Poland will send more T-72 and BWP-1 enough to equip whole tank mechanised brigade. This is what is possible to be done in that dire situation on eastern front.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...wp-1_ifvs.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukrai...land-5517.html

Is also considered to send Leopard 2 even without German approval and their support. That was already done when soviet license build T-72 where delivered in this last year without Russian approval to re-export their design :) even they were quite against this ;)

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._approval.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/polan...sent-5516.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/poles...anks-5502.html

Re: MBT's
 

The tight control the Germans keep on their exports may be why South Korea armour is gaining attention

Re: MBT's
 

Here is story of Leopards in polish service with dates of deliveries and answere why Poland in near future wants to have only Korean and US tanks

https://en.defence-ua.com/events/how...them-5461.html

Re: MBT's
 

Breaking international export restrictions would have dire consequences for the BUYER exporting country and have possible unforeseen consequences for the importers of modern weaponry such as tanks etc. across the board.

Regardless of the considerations are the other political consequences with Poland's neighbor to the West and possibly in NATO and there's nothing more Putin would love to see right now.

If Poland moved ahead and violated the Germans "sovereign" right to protect their technology under international contract law, what for instance would the United States think could potentially happen to their M1A1 and M1A2PL ABRAMS once in Poland's hands?

Will they send them to the Ukraine?

Even a "watered down" ABRAMS can be reversed engineered to a point to provide at least some insight of what came before and to see into the future a little.

What do you think we're doing right now with the Russian T-73B3/B3M, T-80BVM, T-90/90A and the T-90MS?

But the BIG DIFFERENCE is that Russia a BELIGERENT in the war and NATO isn't.

I don't know what plans Don has for those tanks; I'll assume he will stay with when they get there which maybe next year and we're not chasing dates.

But does anyone really 12-14 CHALLENGER 2 tanks and maybe 50 LEOPARDS are going to win this war? In the game depending on how Don allocates them you might be able to buy as many as you want

But if truly official this just came across the wire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...2ad749165d514c

Told you I'm always watching.

To make my final point anyway, Thailand sending back their OPLOT-T (48) & S. Korea T-80 (33-Andy) would help as they require no training and they have the ammo same for next, the Russian Capture tanks (i.e., T-72B3M @ 100+) will and are having a more immediate impact at least in stabilizing the front.

And the news I just posted in NO WAY changes anything I posted as above. As the ref. says Germany has "green lighted" this release.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

further to that......

Minister: Germany won't block Poland giving Ukraine tanks
Story by The Canadian Press • 2h ago

Re: MBT's
 

What both the Challys and the Leos will be is the Number 1 priority target for destruction or capture or both as a propaganda coup

"They" will want photos like this to show the world

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018...7403386722.jpg

One wrecked NATO tank is worth 100 photos of lid-flipping T-72/T-80/T-90 and we've seen A LOT of those images

Re: MBT's
 

Well, that didn't take too long!

As soon as Don and I posted the good news that Germany has allowed Poland to release their LEOPARD 2A4/5 tanks to the Ukraine the internet is going a little "crazy" about why Germany won't release theirs.

Even the ones released will require a Maintenace period and training, lots of training. Summer at best if they're going to give those crews a chance in battle.

Now to Germany proper, they don't have that many tanks (Poland operates almost as many and Spain and Turkey more of them.) and most are being "RESET" to the LEOPARD 2A7V+ (Which is in the game.)

So, what can Germany do?

Well one a "quick" option is to release their active service LEOPARD 2A5 tanks used for training and if you will, an active reserve force.
https://news.yahoo.com/19-german-leo...112200697.html

What about BUNDERWEHR stores?
The above touches on that however, we don't know if they'll commit those.

WHY?

Germany just passed its largest Military Budget I believe I read, since the Cold War and are going to enter into a major expansion across all branches. This will include a much larger tank force afterall Germany is a big country.

What about Rheinmetall?

Glad you asked!! :D I'll just copy from the below...

"Battle tanks from German industrial reserves wanted by Ukraine will not be ready to be delivered until 2024, the arms manufacturer Rheinmetall has warned, increasing pressure on Nato allies to support Ukraine with armoured vehicles in active service instead, ahead of a key meeting this week."

What are those tanks?

"Rheinmetall, which manufactures the battle vehicle’s gun, has 22 Leopard 2 and 88 older Leopard 1 tanks in its stocks. Getting the Leopard tanks ready for battle, however, would take several months and cost hundreds of millions of euros the company could not put up until the order was confirmed, Papperger said."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ady-until-2024
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...armsmaker-says
("The German army has only around 350 Leopard 2 tanks today, compared to some 4,000 battle main tanks at the height of the Cold War.")

Tanks ain't cheap! Some of you that have been following for some time now might remember me using the USA term "RESET" going back to when I submitted the ABRAMS SEP V2 which was the first time I saw the term used.

That is what Rheinmetall intends to do if "green lighted" to start processing those tanks. By conducting a RESET you are for a DEEP RESET (SEP V2) gutting it and stripping the armor layers off the hull. In other words, a brand-new tank.

But Rheinmetall is talking in terms of months, so what I see especially for the LEOPARD A15 (My pick as to what they have.) is to remove all analog systems and installing all new digital ones so new FCS to include TI/GSR etc. , enhancing gun operations Stabilization etc. and a new armor package I can see AMAP on this tank which was used I believe first on the later 2A5 and up to mid 2A6 tanks.
https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/r...etail_1408.php
(There are newer versions now.)
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/revolution.htm
(For example purposes.)

If they do as I'm not afraid to put myself out there, that based on the STEEL limitations of the A15 armor numbers in the late 2A4 to early/mid (?) 2A5.

That's of course conjecture on my part. And I own that! :p

Well, I close out with what is the LEOPARD situation in the West (Asia (Singapore notably) & South America (Chile notably) are not covered.), well I got that covered to! :cool:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._and_why_.html

Now leave Germany alone afterall I was a citizen after I was born for about 3yrs. don't ask I might have to shoot you!?! :rolleyes:

From the editor: The above statement is NOT meant as a "Terrorist Threat" the staff has determined it was only a joke. :D
However, Joe is missing if you see him, please let us know where he is. Never mind we (:ghug:) decided we didn't like him anyway!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Well I guess I will hang mine in the breeze as well so this is all supposition as well

Even if Poland, for example, starts sending Leos next week I suspect there will be a flurry of selected crew "familiarization" sessions in Ukraine. The Ukrainians have shown themselves to be fast learners AND (really important) they have been actively at war for 11 months.

There is "peacetime" training and "wartime" training and there is an expected spring offensive coming so there will be an intensive drive to get crews in these things learning how they work and I would assume this familiarization will be 24/7 because you need back up crews trained

So......... don't think in leisurely peacetime terms for readiness. My bet is two months tops after the first ones arrive because IMHO "the other side" is, IMHO, not going to wait until after the spring thaw but that is the big unknown but if it was me I would have crews in those first tanks rotated 24 hours a day.

HOWEVER.... It would not surprise me to learn that there have been select Ukrainian crews training on them in Poland on the QT and if they have ( wouldn't you if you could ? ) then they may ( maybe--should ) have operational readiness before we release the next upgrade. They NEED those things ready before the spring otherwise they are wasted, Don't think in peacetime terms