Re: MBT's
 

Thank you Andy, that's what I tried to show in the below ref. I used in Post #694, the table at the bottom of the ref. On similar tables I've seen, the 2000m/2500m marks seem to represent the average benchmark distance used to determine a shells effectiveness of delivery, burn and ultimately penetration and damage assessment. Though to a lesser degree today, Mother Nature, primarily wind, temp/humidity, lift/drag and gravity. Without a benchmark whether it's ammo, your CPU or Graphics card etc. etc. pick something, you'll never know how the subject compares against another of the same or like type object.

I'm just glad I came across those WEG's as they bear this out as the tanks and ammo have advanced through time. The numbers along the timeline are actually very close regardless of who they belong to. It's the other factors that make the biggest difference on the battlefield such as the MG, FCS, Protection, EW, Experience/Training, ROF shall I go on? Too many to count, but, all that I've listed and the others are damm (As in holding water back.) factored in by Andy and Don. And if I to far off base here I'd appreciate a correction here.

To me range never meant a thing (weapons) in the game unless, we're talking about VISION that's the artificiality I'm concerned with here when it comes to equipment that makes me see "forever". How many times also, have others like myself discussed infinitive the importance of LOS out here in the forums and terrain masking when setting up covering fire etc. and moving your troops around? Only in certain environments (Desert/Plains.) will the ammo be more important in general.

There might be some adjusts to be made but, especially after for me and it makes absolute sense when again you look at the below ref. and Andy's Post, I think we're not as bad off as thought.

You'll if you read the table correctly, will see the difference between expected penetration levels for these rounds versus actual for them at the benchmark 2000m mark. That (On average at around 50mm.) represents the difference between a kill or for the crew a chance to "limp home"-maybe.
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

These graphs should hopefully tie this up in a simple manner.
Attachment 14921 Attachment 14922

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Here we go...
CHANGE/UNIT 538/ABRAMS M1A2 SEP V3/START DATE 4/117 to 5/120//
Prototypes (6) to the USA by end of this month, or Oct.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/sept...tle_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/unit..._11710154.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Well no one can say I haven't been watching this for some years now, and now it's finally done thanks to the combat experiences of the IDF which I believe finally drove home the need to get this done-the USA has finally got an APS system. When the process started there were I believe upwards of five systems being evaluated. The USA has chosen the TROPHY APS system for the M1A2 SEP V2 (And only for now.) the article is indicating the system has already begun being installed on the tanks.

I recommend the following as I also believe some of those tanks have it as well...
USA/ADD/JAN 2018/M1A2 SEP V2/COPY UNIT 517/CHANGE EW 0 TO EW 2/4 TROPHY/CHANGE 50 CAL AAMG TO 50 CAL CROWS II RWS.// ALSO...
USA/CHANGE/UNITS 517 M1A2 SEP V2 & 538 M1A2 SEP V3/CHANGE 50 CAL AAMG TO 50 CAL CROWS II RWS.//
When submitted in Patch Post #2 for the 2012/2013 campaign 18 February 2013 under MBT's...A1 M1A2 SEP V2 the unit was submitted to have the 50 CAL CROWS II RWS. For all the Patch Posts I've submitted, I've maintained a hard copy of each. When the Patch comes out I do a line item check against what I submitted and what actually was put in. Reading from my "crib" notes in the margin are the following...
"TI/GSR 50" with check mark and "THANKS 898/899 NEW BRADLEY" (A reminder which I posted to Don later.) this tells me it was originally put in the game with the CROWS II RWS. Am I off base here and I missed it then? Or was it changed afterwards? I think however there's a performance difference between the two 50 CAL weapons in the game. A note about the ref., in the title it does say..."...tanks fitted with..." and not "will be" "soon to be" "in the future" "expected to be" "planned to be" etc. etc.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/octo...on_system.html
https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/...sraeli-trophy/
https://scout.com/military/warrior/A...ecti-101454662
https://www.defensetech.org/2017/06/...h-chief-hints/

Maybe going back to my "crib" notes is how I should ease myself "back into the game"?

Confirmed Thailand to get first 28 VT 4 MBT's between 08 -15 Oct. 2017. Still staying with my fielding date as already posted earlier to allow for fitting out and crew training and certification. Updated ref.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/octo...ttle_tank.html

4am time to be "stealthy" as not to risk the wrath of you know who! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The CROWS was never entered until today..

Re: MBT's
 

Crows and similar remote weapon stations are simply a TMG (not an AAMG that can get suppressed and lose shots) or regular MG or AGL with stabiliser added to the vehicle (if it did not have it, just 1 usually on say a hummer). And some form of night vision - usually TI, sometimes 30 or so for Image Intensifiers, if the intel points to that. Then stir in some RF and FC.

See for example USA OOB Units #798, 799 (with RWS) and 348, 349, 658, 659 without.

cheers
Andy

Re: MBT's
 

Extract from
https://www.defense.gov/News/Contrac...ticle/1328736/

General Dynamics Land Systems Inc., Sterling Heights, Michigan, has been awarded a $9,899,995 modification (P00027) to contract W56HZV-17-C-0067 to support and urgent material release and have first unit equipped on trophy installed on an Armor Brigade Combat Team’s M1A2 SEPv2. Work will be performed in Sterling Heights, Michigan, with an estimated completion date of March 29, 2019. Fiscal 2017 research, development, test and evaluation funds in the amount of $9,899,995 were obligated at the time of the award. U.S. Army Contracting Command, Warren, Michigan, is the contracting activity.

Despite being an urgent material release look at the timeframe for completion.
One could argue it could actualy become urgent & get fast tracked though & call me cynical the army seems adverse to using none home grown stuff.
Adding new stuff in general probably the date in most cases should be pushed back 6-12 months.
Country orders 50 whatever recieves first 10 on so & so. Probably used for training does not enter combat service for quite a while.

Re: MBT's
 

Currently the values I've been using for the CROWS system are:
Fire Control = 3
Range Finder = 3
Stabilizer = 1
Vision = 40 (usually)

Re: MBT's
 

Well modern medium sized tanks are slowly gaining popularity again with the advent of high pressure 105mm guns (Effective range is 4000m) and the ever improving ammo associated with these guns. To spend the added "dollars" to give these tanks and others like them, advanced "hunter killer" systems etc. shows the confidence they have in them to "get the job done" in the field. This I've been watching for a couple of years now. The tank is a joint venture between Turkey and
Indonesia.

[b]Too early to throw out a date for this tank, will just have to be patient with this one for awhile.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/octo...indonesia.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/turk..._10412164.html

Now for some much needed sleep, and by the way, my mission to be stealthy was a success! :D Good Night/or Morning!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Exactly why I never bothered wasting a weapons slot on it for the high end MBT's and such that already have FC/RF/S/V ratings that far exceed those numbers. But I added it this time as a "why not" I'm less concerned with running out of slots than I once was. The "CROWS" in game now has a slightly enhanced HEK value than a normal 12.7

Re: MBT's
 

I wasn't aware you'd improved the HEK (presumably by 1?) and have been using the normal HMG/MMGs for CROWS mounts. Does such a slight increase in HEK actually have a noticeable effect on the weapon?

Re: MBT's
 

Taiwan is looking at ways to locally upgrade its M60A3 MBTs.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/201...s-m60a3-tanks/

Re: MBT's
 

We ALWAYS get questions about armor the various types etc. I have pulled from this source many times out here when the topic has come up and as your finding I never could figure out how to get it out, until this evening-again thanks Don.

Armor types and still relevant and this might alter some thinking of armor. I believe it's about as good as we'll get to some degree...
Attachment 14946

Again as was posted earlier in green/white papers APS systems which belongs here as well.
Attachment 14947

The next is a little different, you've heard me talk about how economics is the driver for Defense spending in all areas concerned. My purpose originally here had to do with the state of the French Air Force as far as current equipment was concerned (Something triggered the search but, as Don and others know well it always manages to take me on a different related search lost now.). You will get all the numbers, percentages etc. etc. ALL IN PRETTY COLORED GRAPHS!! :D Also though for you that track France or their equipment, a current equipment listing and numbers as of 2016 complied from the end of 2015. Good enough I feel to post it hear because after all this thread gets the most attention of the one's I started out here. Of course I strive to provide a quality product ;), so this is from the French MOD.
Attachment 14948

I shall now "en devour" to enjoy the rest of the evening!

bonne nuit!

Cordialement,
Patrick
(Same in English as French/No Pat in French for names. You learn something everyday. At least I know now if in France not to introduce myself as Pat as they might wonder why I want to "pat" something!?!)
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

There have been comments on Chinese social media that the first batch of VT-4 MBTs has been delivered to the Royal Thai Army (obat 54). Jane's 360 reported that the first batch was due to be delivered this week:

http://www.janes.com/article/74568/r...livery-of-vt4s

Re: MBT's
 

They also apparently killed efforts to acquire M1 Abrams to pay for this as well. :(

Re: MBT's
 

Taiwan has been trying to get the M1 for almost 10yrs now w/o success. It would seem as far as the Chinese are concerned this would be a "deal breaker" in more ways then one. However it's in the air where Taiwan is making out with a major upgrade package I believe already started or soon to begin for their F-16's and Patriot systems. Naval side is also benefiting as well. For now armor is off the table for us, however, there have been rumors someone might fill that need instead of us. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the Middleeast either upfront or behind the scenes helps with those tank upgrades. ;) I have it out here in a couple of threads but, I'd highly recommend you go to the Defense Industry Daily (DID) webside they have a continually updated article covering all aspects of Taiwan's weapons desires and actual acquisitions.

Regards,
Pat

Just went to DID, in the search box, type in "Taiwan" you want the second result "Taiwan's Force Modernization: The American Side." It'll bring you fully up to date as of 5 Sep. 2017 that includes all I've discussed above and more. The F-16 upgrade will bring their F-16A/B fighters up to the top of the line F-16V which is a 4th Gen ++ fighter inline with the GRIPEN NG. Told you China's not happy about this at all.

Not home on my PC and the wife's APPLE AYRE isn't letting me do what I want. I'm sure it's just operator error. :D

Re: MBT's
 

China has officially confirmed that it has deployed its new light tank (ZTQ / maybe ZTQ-15):

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_33103697.htm

Re: MBT's
 

Link to new Russian armour with some very good photos.

http://defense-update.com/20150509_t..._analysis.html

Re: MBT's
 

Turkey OOB32:

39 Leopard 2T (aka NG): judging from a date, it should be in service for several months. I could not find any info in the net, that they were completed (or even ordered as for now).
Anyway, according to http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard_2ng.htm and other sources, it still has L44 gun.

BTW: isn't it worth for German 2A6 and 2A7 to be fitted with icons with longer guns, than 2A4?..

Indonesia OOB71:

17 Leopard 2RI - "According to an IHS Jane's report from September 2016, Indonesia had by then taken delivery of 24 Leopard 2 RI MBTs" (now 6/14) http://www.janes.com/article/66604/i...n-battle-tanks
http://defense-studies.blogspot.my/2...rrival-of.html

It doesn't say they have L55 guns, and it would be quite strange (what for in Indonesia?..). I may be wrong, but this film also doesn't show enormous guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA42gbjjdV8

It apparently bought also ordinary Leo 2A4 from May 2016:
https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/indo...-battle-tanks/
http://defence-blog.com/army/indones...d-ri-tank.html

Re: MBT's
 

The ever changing world...This is why you just can't submit a piece of equipment and forget about. I have many times in the past just simply posted a couple of refs. indicating that "X" country received "R" equipment sometimes a couple of years or more later. I have done so regarding this Indonesian tank deal. There was some comprise involved to account for the MBT chosen much of related to the fact most of the information we had pointed to the LEO 2A6, specifically German UNIT 033. Due to the political nature of this deal little information was out there, but, that being said, German UNIT 033 did fit the bill for the upgraded LEO-2RI, because they received the LEO 2A4+ which was/is brought up to the 2A6 standard and with the improvements on that tank the UNIT 033 still works best.

This was submitted in Patch Post #2 for the 2012/2013 Campaign 18 February 2013. It is in both the Patch Post and MBT (Though at a later date.) Threads if further information is desired. MBT Section/Item A3.

I hope the links are still good, it's late and I'm under the weather right now :sick: and working still-SO-really don't feel like checking that at this time.

I have only kept up on this issue as is provided from my files below and hopefully in the order I got them.
https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/indo...-battle-tanks/
http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/...i-mbts-to.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2..._12505163.html
https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/...etail_1408.php
https://below-the-turret-ring.blogsp...roduction.html

What is clear is that Indonesia DID NOT chose all the options Associated with the LEO REVOLUTION. The last ref speaks for many in that regard so by example you can chose to have either the L44 or L55 MG. Again UNIT 033 was
chosen because the "RI" was to have the L55.

Everyone I'm spent right now so I have to leave it here. Have a Good Night/or Morning!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

CRAP- Almost forgot, this is from earlier this morning...

SIPRI
Transfers of major weapons: Deals with deliveries or orders made for 2010 to 2016.
Note: The ‘No. delivered’ and the ‘Year(s) of deliveries’ columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. The ‘Comments’ column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/sources-and-methods>.
Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database
Information generated: 19 October 2017

(Had to modify doc. "O" = Ordered. The "R" = Received.)

Year(s) 2010-2016

Germany (FRG)R: Indonesia
2 BPz-2 ARV O2012 R2015 (2)Second-hand; part of EUR216 m deal

3 BrPz-1 Biber ABL O2012 R2015-2016 3 Second-hand; part of EUR216 m deal

3 Buffel ARV O2012 R2016 (3) Second-hand Leopard-2 tank modified to Buffel ARV

61 Leopard-2A4 Tank O2012 R2016 40 Second-hand but modernized to Leopard-2RI before delivery; delivery 2016-2017

42 Leopard-2A4 Tank O2012 R2013-2015 42 Second-hand; part of EUR216 m deal (These should be the as used German UNIT 033 (A4+) tanks as entered already.-PJC)

(42) Marder-1A3 IFV O2012 R2013-2015 (42) Second-hand (possibly modernized before delivery; 8 more delivered for spare parts only); part of EUR216 m deal (As posted later, they were upgraded-PJC)

3 PiPz-1 AEV O2012 R2016 3 Second-hand; part of EUR216 m deal

Re: MBT's
 

Concerning my last post, you can find the data at...
The FASTBOAT Patch page/Page 13/Post 123/MBT Section/Item A4/Most of the refs still good. It shows some of the complexity concerning the LEO issue for Indonesia "follow the bouncing ball" comes to mind also the refs. "dove tail" with where the tanks (Dutch.) ended up.

A couple hours here, a couple hours there, I REALLY hate a !#&*%+ bad cold and the sinus issues associated!!

Back to bed!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/indo...-battle-tanks/

The problem with information about equipment before they are actually delivered is that they are often proved wrong which generates more work correcting what was entered

http://defence-blog.com/army/indones...rder-ifvs.html

I would much prefer getting information like this a month or two after delivery than speculation about what " might " be a year or two before. The OOB has been corrected to reflect the new information

They are not however " graddads 2A4"
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1508414829

Don

Re: MBT's
 

Remember there were two separate orders/batches (Two orders in 2012.) for these Leopards the first batch was delivered between 2013-2014 these would be covered by the already entered Leopard derived from German UNIT 033 of which they received 42 tanks. Even your source matches by the numbers what SIPRI has reported as 61 tanks to be delivered between 2017-2018 these are the Leopard 2RI tanks and second batch.

Bottom-line is simply CHANGE to add a modified German Leopard Revolution tank as the Leopard 2RI.

Well strike the proceeding sentence as I just checked the OOB. Now recommend the following to fix this problem...

A. CHANGE/UNIT 017 LEOPARD 2RI/START DATE 6/2018 vice 6/2014/This represents the second batch of tanks per OUR refs./The LEOPARD RI is NOT a fully optionally equipped tank as the full GERMAN REVOLUTION version. There should be slight deductions in additional armor and FCS.//

B. ADD/LEOPARD 2A4+/USE GERMAN UNIT 033 as was submitted in 2013 w/o modification./START DATE 6/2014/Again these are to original Batch 1 tanks ordered and delivered btwn 2013-2014 as noted in my last post, the above and the below refs./There were political delays within the German government that could've killed the deal as what happened earlier with the Dutch.//
http://www.dw.com/en/indonesia-tank-...ons/a-16357173
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-tanks-013042/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/sept...y_2509133.html
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indon...29571/page-164

From ref. 2...
“We are buying Leopard 2A4 and Leopard 2 Revolution models that are already modified and have new armaments…. All the political and administrative processes are complete, we are in the production phase…. We can use them as soon as they arrive…. The memorandum of understanding will stipulate the transfer of technology and the provision of spare parts.”

From ref.4 see first couple of entries.

The LEOPARD 2A4+ was the "stepping stone" from LEOPARD 2A4 > LEOPARD 2A4+ > LEOPARD 2 REVOLUTION.

I don't know what more I can add at this point except, I need to get ready for work.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat......"GERMAN UNIT 033" is a L55 2A6 not a 2A4. I have not found a single source that indicates 2a4's were fitted with L55's and no source I've found describes Indonesian Leos as anything but 2A4's so the added unit is going to be an L44 2A4

Re: MBT's
 

There are at least 21 icons in 4 Shp files

as measured from the front of the extractor to the tip of the barrel it IS longer than the 2A4's....not quite perfect - but "close enough"

So the answer is NO it's not "worth it" unless I have a lot more free time on my hands than I do now.

Re: MBT's
 

The LEO 2A4+ (Upgrade pkg. to the 2A6 standard.) and the LEO REVOLUTION can both be upgraded to the L55.

I have to believe they did this with both based on the DID ref. from the C&C of the Indo Army.

See my quote from ref. 2. However if you don't feel comfortable with giving the LEO 2A4+ the L55, then leave it with at least the most advanced German L44 as being the only change made from German UNIT 033 the rest is definitely part of the upgrade pkg.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

OK Pat you show me a source that specifically states the Indonesian 2A4's are fitted with the L55 gun and I will change it

read this

RUAG Leopard 2 Upgrade
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...rd_upgrade.htm


Revolution Main battle tank
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/revolution.htm

FURTHER

Look at the distance between the front of the extractor and the end of barrel of the main gun on the photo in post 721 and this 2A6 L55 in Afganistan

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1508472719

721...an Indonesian 2A4--- is an L44

Re: MBT's
 

Don you're absolutely right they both do have the 120mm L44 MG's which is VERY obvious in the below video ref. I think also we can agree information can change over time. The earlier articles I looked into concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+ upgrade pkg. lead me to believe the configuration would be the same as the LEOPARD 2A6 in this case per GERMAN UNIT 033.

So I dug deeper as I know you expected me to and I'm not only on the wrong tank but country as well concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+. In both my Mozilla/MSN and Google search, I saw some hits for the 2A4+ being the same as the REVOLUTION but those mostly from bloggers and not very many, however, from more traditional sites and some blogs, the LEOPARD 2A4(M)CAN came up repeatedly, of course this being from Canada.

I think this to be correct based on the below video of Indonesian Army units being involved in an exercise with both tanks and the MARDER's they ordered and more.

What struck me is that the LEOPARD 2A4+ turret seemed larger with some subtle differences as well compared to a standard LEOPARD 2A4. The look is definitely more in line with the Canadian 2A4(M)CAN UNIT O35 as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1S5bgcrw2s

Also I'm not so sure about that start date now for the LEOPARD RI as submitted, unless we consider the fact it's part of an operational acceptance trial (From the video above.) which, is very plausible and not unusual for a country to do when they receive new equipment to verify it meets all the contracts specs etc. etc. as agreed to.

Some already know this, but for the newer folks simply there is "NO HARM NO FOUL" here, it's just what we do. Thanks for the "push" it felt good to get back to my "old" standards.

Now for some much needed sleep so that @#$%^&* cold doesn't bounce back on me. ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I'll assume no issues with my last post. I wanted to get a time frame on the video I submitted in my last post and it was 11 August 2017 this next is from 15 August 2017 as posted. At 1:19 into the video I paused it to get a count of how many LEOPARD 2RI tanks I saw and that number is 8. That makes sense for the first shipped number of LEOPARD 2RI tanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRnBvX444g

Only doing this to try and "frame" a timeline for you to work from for a start date.

I'm still thinking that they are under an "operational evaluation" period as I discussed in my last post as well.

For what it's worth, I'm not thinking anything before JAN 2018 earliest. I'll stick my neck out further, and suggest that the LEOPARD 2RI should be operational/accepted by JUN 2018 latest.

Concerning the LEOPARD 2A4+, I've done some more checking this morning since my last post, and I have to tell you personally, I'm satisfied that the Canadian LEOPARD 2A4(M)CAN is a 2A4+ and is the correct tank to use for the Indonesian LEOPARD 2A4+. Again as I posted in my last. The start date should still be good as well as JAN 2014.

Just trying to cover my tracks here as best as I can based on my more current data since I submitted the LEOPARD 2A4+ back in 2013.

Hope this was more help than hindrance to you. And it's that time of day again, so I hope all have a good day and weekend.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBi30pDidJE

The Leos are around minute 5

Re: MBT's
 

The movie was good and watched the whole thing. Those RANGERS (Saw the patch on the uniforms.) in the Command Center seemed pretty motivated as did the rest of their troops. So after checking the OOB...

1. Are the RANGERS in the OOB under local named version?

2. Need to add Heavy Sniper teams to the OOB. In sniper portion of the movie looked like that was a BARRET or very similar 50. Cal Heavy Sniper rifle.

3. Something that caught my eye also was, on the MARDER, from a frontal view, it looked like to the left and above the 20mm was a single tube launcher for a SPIKE ATGW. To illustrate, the picture below left shows what I thought I saw in the video. The picture on the right shows the same MARDER by type that's German and you can clearly see the SPIKE Launcher is in the same position.

Indonesian... German...
Attachment 14987 Attachment 14988

Maybe I shouldn't have watched the movie!?! :dk:

What I do know somebody better get their "DONKEY" tough day later at work and CINCLANTHOME knows about it. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

1. Yes

2. OK

3. Interesting....

Re: MBT's
 

Sorry wrong missile, should be MILAN.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/marder.htm

However these are more up to date pictures now I wonder if it's just a TI/GSR gun-site or to a lesser degree of confidence, a laser range finder which it's equipped with as well. The second (Use arrow head scroll right side of picture frame.) seems to show a better view and it looks like there's a glass reflection on that "extension". Didn't copy the picture to avoid any legal issues, nothing says however I can't post the site.
http://tank-masters.de/?page_id=296

Arty Observer same turret, offering more views...
http://tank-masters.de/?page_id=4787

Going back to SIPRI forgot MILAN is French :doh:...
Alright, had already done a missile search for Germany none transferred btwn 2010-2016. Did the same search for France (MILAN) and Israel (SPIKE) under the "Missiles" category France did indeed have missile transfers during this period in anti-ship
and SAM areas the following is the only armor related missile...I added the "Ordered" and "Delivered" to avoid confusion...
"(136) Mistral Portable SAM (Ordered2012) Delivered 2013-2016/(136) For use with ATLAS launchers on Komodo APC produced in Indonesia."

I think it's a TI/GSR Gun-sight. I can't find anything about Indonesia got them with a portable mounted ATGW system in the limited time I have right now. This after a web search for the same.

Even the one's Jordan just received or are about to receive are not ATGW equipped. But are the same configured ones from Germany as Indonesia got.

I gotta go!! It's my Friday!!!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

already covered in German OOB by unit 53 but I have added a + version to the Marder 1 A5

Re: MBT's
 

It would appear based on Chinese sources in Late June 2017 during a news conference confirmed reports that they were testing their "new" light tank in Tibet. Not sure when this was deemed operational, but, this might change that date. This tank is being developed for high altitude ops, and as I pointed when this tank first appeared on the radar a few yrs. back, it's intended to fight India. Look at the map.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/59369545.cms
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...the_tibet.html
https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/chin...ew-light-tank/
(Read the article and don't get caught up in it's title. PJC)
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/202...T_5_Light_Tank
(Kind've missed the mark though with the picture.PJC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQtH4L0LsDM
(VT-5 Export version. With a 1000hp engine and at 30-35 tons it'll fly.PJC)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/chin..._11711164.html

Both are in the final phases of development the VT-5 I believe is a little closer due to it's income potential. Bangladesh apparently is close or has signed a contract to get them.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The official Chinese media confirmed that the new light tank was operational earlier this month (see post #716). It might have been operational at the time of the exercise in Tibet.

It is said to be deployed with a unit in Tibet at the moment - and I've read that there are plans to deploy it near the Vietnamese frontier as well. It would be suited to the terrain in both regions.

Re: MBT's
 

All I can say is those articles from the 18th of this month are saying "tested" or "deployed for testing/or similar for the sake of accuracy. PJC", I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth here. All the equipment sites I use don't show any country users at this point. And by the way they all are quoting from military spokes person or newspapers.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...light_tank.htm
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/vt5.htm
https://www.armyrecognition.com/chin..._11711164.html

And...
https://scout.com/military/warrior/A...Tank-107470050

From the above and others already submitted...
In June 2017, the Chinese periodical Guancha reported (Like SPUTNIK is for the Russian Military.) that the Xinqingtan (literally “New Light Tank”), a mountain-going tank formerly known by the equally generic appellation ZTQ-105, had entered trials in Tibetan Plateau. The newspaper characterized these as “a show of force designed to deter the Indian military,” while a military spokesman stated on June 29 they were “aimed to test the tank’s performance and are not targeted at any country.”

I don't see how you can read into any of those refs. or equipment sites (Check the Data Blocks) that they are operational at this time. Not unusual to move equipment around different parts of the country when terrain and weather conditions vary so much. Some countries even will go so far, but very rarely, to test equipment in other countries usually for op eval after being down selected by a potential buyer.

It took years of testing for the India's ARJUN tank before it became operational. That tank like the Chinese one visited every part of the country for months at a time to determine where it's potential could be best used. Lord knows I posted enough on that tank and process. It might be worth a little time and research to visit that topic as India was MUCH MORE forth coming on that tank than China will ever be on theirs.

I stand by my original post until someone "can show me the money", well it's that time-have a good day!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I see one of the sources you are quoting is armyrecognition.com. They claimed that the 'Xinqingtan' was in service with the Chinese armed forces back in January this year:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/janu..._10401171.html

Maybe they were right. Hard to tell. The photos were from unofficial Chinese sources and show a few tanks in Guilin - which indicates that they were being delivered to the PLA's Southern Theatre Command. But they may only have been there for testing in Guangxi Province near the Vietnamese border.

Janes's take on the photos:

http://www.janes.com/article/66681/c...new-light-tank

They claimed that the Chinese were 'possibly' equipping their units with the new tank.

Re: MBT's
 

I'll change gears a bit .....

This is for those of you that ( try ) to keep track of what the Russians are working on

I don't want to make any assumptions BUT.......is the T-90M what we represent now as Unit 59 T-90AM Tagil ( but which military-today refers to as the T-90MS Tagil and also goes on to say "T-90M is a proposed upgrade of the Russian Army's T-90 tanks. The T-90M uses a number of similar components as the T-90MS. It was first publicly revealed in 2017. Deliveries might begin in 2018.".....??

or are they separate developments? One thing I did read was the 'M' will use the same gun as the T-14 and I have changed unit 59 to that as well

I **think** they are, in game terms, the same with the gun upgraded

T-90AM=T-90MS=T-90M

??

Re: MBT's
 

This should get you started and again, affiliated with the Ontario Tank Regiment Museum. Look at the "Evolution" section and bottom of article I general status in Russian Army and direction of T-90 family gearing more towards export.
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...a/T-90_MBT.php

T-90A/M/S according to ref. 1 are all the same tank with the "S" denoting export.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...ical_data.html
http://www.janes.com/article/73927/r...m-t-80bvm-mbts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UflYhAsqeWg

That's all I have time for. And you know why!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I did note the change in the CMG to 12.7 mm and that is now in the game

Re: MBT's
 

According to Russian Wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2-90 :

* T-90AM (obyekt 188AM, program Proryv-2) is a modification of T-90A with new FCS Kalina, improved gun 2A46M-5 with better accuracy, Relikt ERA and remotely controlled 7.62mm AAMG
* T-90MS is an export variant of AM (shown in 2011)
* T-90M (obyekt 188AM, program Proryv-3) is a modification of T-90A. 400 tanks will be "modernized". Gun is 2А82-1М (of T-14 Armata), FCS Kalina.

The same on T-90M is here https://vpk.name/news/173008_t90_pol...noi_silyi.html ("T90 will get a gun from Armata...")

It is not clear, if T-90AM is used, T-90M is in plans as for now.

Uralvagonzavod received a contract for a batch of T-90M http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2926028

Re: MBT's
 

Maybe a little help here In Soviet/Russian nomenclature might be helpful.

First from... 7 INTELLIGENCE COMPANY AS PART OF IT'S INTELLIGENCE TRAINING SUPPORT OF 1 (BR) CORPS. This dated from 1988. There is very useful data here other then from pg.1 especially at the very end.
http://www.thortrains.net/downloads/soviettanks88.pdf
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/De...s_Prefixes.htm

It's all about what you call it, the lighter side of it...
https://sputniknews.com/military/201503031019008767/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

This has just come in by way of "reading my papers" finally some news on the ARJUN Mk II. The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) of India has just completed the 93 improvements the Army tasked them to do to get them to like it more. Weight was one of the major issues among many. It is supposed to be lighter than the ARJUN Mk I but much better protected, which it seems especially with "{improved KANCHAN armour, a modular composite armour developed by India. It has been described as being made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) (A very technologically difficult process.) . This armour is able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and is believed to withstand APFSDS."

Do not forget they've had a lot of foreign help from Israel, Germany, France to a lesser degree and it still looks like the U.S. in an unspecified role.

What caught my attention is it seems like the LAHAT is back in play after it being reported the Israelis and Indians couldn't get it to work properly with the 120mmR MG. Testing was successful with a Ukrainian ATGW.

It's been well documented that ARJUN Mk I outperformed all their current main tanks in the op eval trial period to include their improved T-90S. They didn't even involve their T-72 tanks as they're so dated. I foresee them testing ARJUN Mk II against the T-90MS tanks when they get them. Should be interesting. Ref. has been updated to allow for protection, weapons, and other general changes.

To say I've spent a life time with these tanks here would be a bit of an exaggeration, but, and has felt like it at times.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/octo..._mbt_tank.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/indi...elligence.html

GOOD NIGHT!! 3AM :doh:!!

Re: MBT's
 

..or rather should I write: "the gun according to some statements is going to be 2A82-1M in the future". As for now, T-90M seems nothing more, than unspecified order, and a prototype. According to http://army-news.ru/2017/10/tank-t-9...nosti-proekta/ , basing on some official statements, the gun is 2A46M-4 (strange, that not M-5). There is a mention, that the tanks are going to be modernized from earlier variants rather than produced.

As for T-90AM, there is surprisingly little information. There is an article, but without any mention if they are in service https://anaga.ru/t-90am.html Searching for T-90AM in the Russian net, I haven't found any news that they were delivered.

BTW: as I mentioned in other place, there is a small problem with proper rendering of a progress in Soviet 125 mm guns. There were models 2A26 (T-64A, early T-72), 2A46 (T-72A/M1, T-64A?, T-80), 2A46M (T-72B, newer variants of T-80, T-90), 2A46M-1, 2A46M-4 and 2A46M-5 (T-72B3). And each one is said to be an improvement in accuracy... On the other hand, we have all with accuracy 13, and only Armata's gun is 15. Maybe from 2A46M in late 1980s it should be 14? There was probably the biggest improvement between 2A46 and 2A46M, connected with an introduction of symmetric recuperators and reduction of clearance in gun's mechanism.

Re: MBT's
 

Well “Houston we have a problem” it appears we might be early on the South Korean K2 and are defiantly early on the K2A2 PIP (Black Panther). And it all started with the following so please don’t blame me, because it’s JANE’s fault as per this ref next…
http://www.janes.com/article/74933/d...mbt-production

Blame the guy who’s holding all those files-he’s a real bassturd!?! I’m only the messenger.

So from the above ref. Para 4 TORD - “An initial batch of 100 K2s – ordered in 2011 with deliveries commencing in 2014 – were fitted with the German MTU 883 diesel engine (@1200hp-mine) and Renk transmission system.”

Also from Para 2. I believe this (The second K2 ordered batch.) refers to the K2 (A2-mine) PIP this would have fit the planned dates for that originally as falling between 2016 and 2020. One of the noted K2 PIP characteristics was a new improved engine with a 1500hp capability + more to include the KAPS (Think IDF TROPHY) “hard kill” system, which has already completed all field testing and is operationally ready to be used.
TORD…
“In an audit submission to the defense committee of the South Korean National Assembly on 13 October, DAPA said the mass production of the additional 100 K2s is now expected to be complete by 2020. Under the initial schedule, announced in late 2014, the production of the second batch of MBTs production was expected to conclude in 2017.”

So I’ve been directed to pull together all the K2 information I have and note the various FOC dates included. I have further been directed to provide changes as necessary to include a comprise FOC date for the K2 based on the body of evidence included. Also please note dates of refs where given and that I had reported on this engine issue which also plagues the Turkish ALTAY (An update included at the bottom from 1 Nov. 2017.) In no particular order…

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/mo...ck-panther.php

K2 Development Section Not much help here except – “There was a new bump in 2011, when the Defense Acquisition Program Administration had to admit that the engine would be replaced by the original MTU-890 instead, at least for the first 100, delaying operational introduction until March 2014.”

K2 PIP Section – “This upgrade is intended for the near future (2016-2020) to improve the early batches.”

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2311.html

K2 – Not much help here except under the Contract Section at the bottom of Dec 2014 -2019, but supports below ref. by year.

K2 PIP - Armor and defensive features Section – “As for the initial version of the K2, it will not contain any hard-kill anti-missile defense system. However, the K2 PIP, which is an improved version of the initial version, is slated to be released within the next few years, and will contain either a pair of anti-missile systems.”

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...anther_mbt.htm

K2 Para 1 – “Production contract for the first 100 K2 tanks was signed in 2014. In 2016 this first batch of 100 tanks was reportedly delivered and additional tanks were being built.”

K2 PIP – Nothing.

http://www.army-technology.com/proje...n-battle-tank/

K2 – Intro Section - “The tank is expected to enter into service in 2014.”

K2 PIP – Nothing

Turkish Altay - The K2 Black Panther development Section
“The first prototype of the Altay MBT is expected to be ready by 2015.” They about made that-PIC

https://www.armyrecognition.com/sout...video_sou.html

K2 – Description Section – “Already in production, the K2 is scheduled to be delivered to the South Korean army between the latter half of 2015 and December 2017.”

K2 PIP - Variants Section -
"K2 PIP: an improved version of the initial production model of the K2 that will be released within the next few years."

Remember I said to make sure to check the posted dates where given. The above was posted on…
“Posted On Monday, 26 January 2015 15:47 (Updated on. - PJC) 25 April 2017”

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...project-05012/

K2- Contract Section -
2011 – 2014
Nov 18/14: XK-2. South Korea’s WON 2+ trillion (about $1.84 billion) XK-2 tank project, which served as the basis for Altay, has experienced delays due to technical difficulties. Acceleration performance has been a particular issue, and the ROK plans to field it with a locally-made engine and transmission by 2017. So far, about 100 K-2 Black Panther tanks have been deployed in Korea. Sources: Yonhap, “S. Korea to put K-2 combat tank into full service by 2017”.

K2 PIP – Nothing

Turkish ALTAY Latest Update Section (Read all Please.) -
"November 1/17: …Rheinmetall’s potential involvement in Turkey’s Altay tank program could also be in doubt—the firm has formed a joint venture with Turkey’s BMC to bid for the first tranche contract which would see 100-200 Altay units built."

In context to the rest of the para, the revised 2018 date I submitted a couple of months back is now in severe jeopardy. Don to be safe I’m really thinking JAN 2019 now for FOC of the ALTAY. They also tried an indigenous engine like S. Korea, and it hasn’t worked out either. With this political storm now it could be years before it'll see the light of day."

Side note:
The improved K1A1 they will be brought up to the K2 standard minimum, while the K2 will be brought up to the K2A2 PIP standard. This last para only for FYI. I do not foresee any of these first two above tanks coming out of service before games end. Also the K1 and K1A1 data looks fine as is.

Would recommend the following based on all above...

1) South Korea/K2/UNIT 025/START DATE/JUN 2017/VICE JAN 2014//

2) South Korea/K2 PIP/UNIT 033/START DATE/OCT 2018 (80%)/VICE JAN 2014/ADD KAPS Hard Kill/Also is to maintain current Soft Kill System/Can the game support both?/If not, upgrade to KAPS.// South Korea is much further along in fixing their developmental issues than Turkey is in theirs for the ALTAY. Given the current situation on the Korean Peninsula and with China to a lesser degree I feel strongly they will be motivated to get the K2 PIP on line ASAP. I’m basing my above date on these factors. But, I’m also prepared for the fact this could slip into early 2019.

3) Turkey/ALTAY/UNIT 614/START DATE/JAN 2019 (75%)/VICE JUN 2017//As noted in the above refs.

Well I've spent sometime on this yesterday and this morning. If you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, I was unsuccessful in my tactical infiltration into the bedroom and the rack. :hide:

4:30am somebody shoot me!?! Only kidding! Willing to take my chances!! ;)

For the "other guy"...

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Forgot to get something from S. Korea itself. :doh:

The following is from the Korea Defense Network this video (1st one.) from 8/2016 the "payoff" comes at 1:15 into the video/freeze it and you'll see on the turret "X2".

On some of similar videos dated btwn 2014-2015 the marking was on the front hull is "XK2".

This is indicating to me the progression in the op eval portion of the acceptance program.

I think we're on track as submitted or really close to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO86xaYA7j4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozecotPSQ1U

At the very start of the 2nd video you'll see the "XK2" as noted above, this from Nov. 2015.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

What I see are tanks already available for service as of August 2016

so

1) South Korea/K2/UNIT 025/START DATE/JUN 2017/VICE JAN 2014//

is not accurate

military-today has them in service 2016 and that is GOOD ENOUGH for me

Re: MBT's
 

That feeling when someone uses your website in a debate you're in. :D:angel

I really do need to update that page; clean it up a little bit and do another round of Russian Prefixes from what's available on the internets now.

Re: MBT's
 

Yes, it's always nice ;)

Excuse an offtopic, but here are some mistakes to clean:
- should be "modulnaya" instead of "modurnaya", "bronirovannyi" (or "..yy", depending on transliteration) instead of "bronirovannykh" (the last one is a declination of a basic form),
- "kumulyativnaya" and "kumulyativnyy" is the same, and it means shaped charge, not Armor Piercing Warhead. The first one is feminine form, and the last one - masculine (it depends on a noun with which it is used),
- "kumulyativno-oskolochnyy" is HEAT/FRAG, not AP/FRAG
- "Raketa" (or rather pronounced: "rakyeta") is a missile, but also a rocket
- should be just "zholtyy" instead of "iorzholtyy"

Michal

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sec...ay-to-thailand

Re: MBT's
 

Those OPLOT-M tanks then will have arrived almost on time. I had reported that the Ukraine lost the potential order of selling Thailand the additional tanks they required but, that agreement was made to allow the Ukraine to fulfill it's contract obligation with no penalties for breach of contract. They have Russia to thank for that as the on going dispute in the Eastern Ukraine was considered in the contract reevaluation.

The Ukraine as also reported has "cranked up production" of the OPLOT-M to meet it's obligation to Thailand as already reported. But as it's starting to turn out and again reported the Ukraine could be the winner in the end.

1) The only major issue Thailand had with the tank was some in the Army didn't like the fact it had an auto-loader. But as it turns out, Thailand has been very happy with the OPLOT-M thus far. But they needed more tanks and China won the bid. More on that below. The interesting thing here is there is now some speculation that this will set up an op-eval situation between the two tanks as Thailand would like to get 200 new ones in the near term future. So with full production going and with streamlined manufacturing processes in place now (Also reported.) they're making them for themselves now as well, estimates vary somewhat, but on average suggest they're up to around 100 OPLOT-M tanks now from only having 10 within just the last 3yrs. or less. It does leave the door opened a crack (All be it a very small one.) for them to get back in the "game" in Thailand. Something to watch over the next couple of years.

2. Already reported on the following as well, Ukraine getting the contract to do a major over haul of Pakistan's ~300 T-84 tanks. The real news was the fact that Pakistan is also very interested in the successor (T REX concept.) to the OPLOT-M and yes you guessed it, as already reported in this thread as well. Ukraine has already displayed the concept and should have a prototype within the next couple of years or sooner. It will be interesting in the longer term if Pakistan will help this project along (Not really big fans of Russia.) possibly financially or more. Opportunity Knocks.

3. Nothing solid but, there's still some interest in the OPLOT-M in Asia at least enough to test them. And Africa is speculated to be a viable market as well. I'm watching S. Africa in particular as they've been looking for newer tanks for over a decade now. The delay is a sluggish economy and the realization they won't have the money to get the tank they really wanted, the LEOPARD.

So what did Thailand decide to do? Well from my files, oldest first I hope...
http://www.armyrecognition.com/janua..._10501162.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2..._12005163.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/janu..._10301176.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/april..._10504172.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/octo...ttle_tank.html
https://www.bangkokpost.com/archive/...lls-in/1340231
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.w...ks-from-china/

The tank...
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/mbt_3000.htm
https://www.armyrecognition.com/chin..._video_uk.html
http://tanknutdave.com/the-chinese-m...n-battle-tank/
http://www.deagel.com/Armored-Vehicl...003040001.aspx

Allowing for inspection and acceptance, op-eval and some training, I would expect these tanks to reach FOC somewhere between JAN 2018 - MAY 2018.

Note many of the refs above have already been posted in this thread.

Consider this a compressed version containing the relevant files to date.

Regards,
Pat
:capt: