Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

A balanced game does not necessarily mean that it will be dull and colorless.
And yes, I do understand that it is very hard to balance such a big system as this and still keep its "magic" intact. But please do remember that hard does not mean impossible.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

It's broken if you're doing a MP only game which MUST include Vanheim. Two easy fixes available... one is not play with Vanheim leaving at least 18 other nations per era available for gaming!! Second if you truly love Vanheim and must choose the nation in a MP game then the host can create a mod.

And I'll point out the Conceptual Balance mod dealt with multiple issues... the issue under discussion is one nation. I could understand if the game had only 11 nations or less to play, but that's not the case. I see no reason why SP gamers, MP gamers with AI opponents and MP only gamers should have a very powerful nation NERF wacked when there's easy ways for gamers to address the issue.


I never said the whole game was perfect. Some imbalances I noticed are the Umbrals that Argatha can summon for 2 death, yet there's no need for me to demand a change because I know a simple mod can make this adjustment. I could see a patch addressing an imbalance in a spell available to everyone, such as if summoning wraith lords was only 8 death gems. This would be an imbalance affecting all nations, yet this is one OPTIONAL nation and not an issue unless the host makes it available choosing not to mod the nation.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Actually NO, the vampire queen was Nerf wacked because she was available to multiple nations. As a result multiple nations would more frequently choose the vampire queen. The issue being discussed only exists if the host chooses to include this one nation and chooses to not mod the nation.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I agree Vanheim is very powerful... and the reason they should remain powerful is because this game is not MP only. If the game did not include SP as an option or MP with AI opponents as an option I would not be defending Vanheim from the NERFing bat. Having an option to create an unbalanced game verses AI opponents allows the game to be easier, equal or more difficult. More options verses AI opponents increase replay value.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That's completely sidestepping the entire point and you know it. If the only way to avoid a problem is to voluntarily cut a whole nation out of the game, then that nation might as well not be included in the game at all and the bleating about a host being able to make a mod is a red herring. If mods are to be the answer, then they should be the method used by those who want an excessively powerful nation in SP. The reason for that is that it is much easier for one person to use a mod in a SP game than it is to coordinate mod version compatibility with up to 17 people in MP.

Irrelevant.

The easiest way to address the issue is for the SP game people to use the mod instead of forcing everyone else to do it. What part of this is too hard to understand? It is also easier to do a powerup mod for a nation than it is to do a balance mod, which is another reason for nerfing Helheim and Vanheim to a level of tolerably superior strength and let the SP gamers powerup them by mod.


And is this issue something that will allow them to easily dominate any given game they are included in? Or is it something that will shore up a weak spot but does not give them an overwhelming edge? I've not seen that many topics complaining about Umbrals, while there is a lot of discussion of Vanheim and Helheim.


So your preferred solution is to restrict content that would otherwise be available and perfectly acceptable if it were only tweaked downward a tiny bit? Gotcha. The remedy you propose is very much voluntarily cutting off your hand because it became dirty, instead of just washing it.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Did you know that 1/4 of the nations have good enough sacreds that they are rockscissors against normal strength AIs? Dont need helheim for that.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Your reasoning doesn't make much sense really. Starcraft, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Dawn of War are all multiplayer and single player games yet each game was patched to fix multiplayer imbalance issues. I've never seen a game designed or patched using your reasoning.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Having unbalanced nations affects singleplayer as well. You're arguing that we should keep these nations around for the benefit of noobs. They're unlikely to find out they're overpowered unless they visit the forums, and if they do that they'll pick up enough knowledge to defeat any other AI on easy fine. On the flip side, if they are against Vanheim they'll get annoyed that they can't seem to win.

If people are good enough to want a more challenging game, they can play multiplayer or get a mod which has a more powerful nation. I'm sure most people would prefer that the game didn't always come down to you v Vanheim because that's boring.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes, the VQ was available to everyone - but it was also what made Ermor so overpowered, because Ermor could take _all_ negative scales, high dominion, and have the VQ as the most whacked out SC pretender in the game.

And for ratraping's sake - if you're saying that a nation (or _TWO_ in at least one era) needs to be modded or deliberately left out, you're admitting there's a problem.

Some of your comments have been ludicrous. "Oh, the newbies need a couple strong nations so they don't quit playing Dominions after getting whacked in MP"?

Yep, guess that's why chess, go, civilizations, etc, all have a couple over-powered sides to help newbies get into the game. Errr - with chess, is that black or f-ing white?

In dominions, the newbies wouldn't know to _choose_ the nations, and they wouldn't know the cheesy mandatory strategy required to do well with them.

Even if they did - it wouldn't do squat to help them learn the game, because W9F9 Vanheim/Helheim plays so differently from other nations.

As far as the "It can be modded" argument : a lot of people (including you in the past, I believe) haven't wanted to play using mods - some people don't trust them, other people don't like to get playing experience that isn't going to match a "real" (ie, unmodded or other, more standardly, modding) game.

It can be left out of games? Yep, _EVERY_ person who plays the game should be forced to learn and use map commands so other players (and the AI opponents) can't choose the nations, and then get into arguments with players who say, "Hey, how come I can't select Vanheim? They're the only nation I like playing!?!?"

The situation ought to be fixed, _IN THE VANILLA, STANDARD GAME_, instead of being left in because it's working "as designed", and the law of unintended consequences be damned. (Changes to gold income, supplies, shield mechanics, research speeds, dormant pretenders, not picking national fortification, etc, all having added to the problem inherent with glamour (mirror images) and stealth already having been somewhat overpowered.)

Then, as far as making things easier for newbies in SP or MP? Give _players_ the same sort of creation option that already exists for AIs, only reversed. Setting a player to expert would give _fewer_ pretender creation points, while novice would give extra points, possibly some bonuses to research, resources, etc. That way they have an easier time trying to keep up, with more than just a SPECIFIC nation or two, and are learning more of the game itself rather than a single overpowered uberbless cheese strategy.

Bah.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Hmmm some of these comments are long drawn out discussions of what should be done, and probably would be done, IF it was agreed that anything was broken.