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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tesco samoa:
will you adjust the cost of ppb.

as the cost of ppb is the current balance on it.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
Heh, that is so much the opposite of my point, I am forced to put one of those eyeball-rolling guys in my post... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Well forgive me if I have misinterpreted your comments, but even now it appears that is what you are saying. From my point of view you are saying that my understanding of your ceomments is incorrect, and then restating the same thing I just said. I guess we have some different definitions of some words or something.

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
In fact, it appears that you say you want balance and choices, but your suggestions don't really live up to that. You want minor tweaks and the game to stay basically as is. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't try to sell it as a "vision of balance".

Ok, well up till now this has been a fairly calm, frank and impersonal discussion. I am probably reading too much into this but you apperar to now be accusing me of somehow misrepresenting my true opinion on the matter and persuing some hidden agenda. If that is what you are saying I resent it. If it is not what you are saying I would appreciate it if you would choose your words more carefully in the future.

I have made no pretentions about my opinion that the game as is is acceptable in it's current form. I don't deny that. But I also have never pretended that the game is any way what I would call "perfect". The reason I brought all this to the front, I was the impetus for this thread after all even if I didn't make the first post, was that I was frankly tired of the constant complaining about the perceived lack of balance and the perceived lack of support on the part of Malfador to do anything to resolve it. My goal was to motivate some of you that have been at the forefront of complaining about the problem to actually do something about fixing it rather then waiting for soemone else to do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
With the type of balance I am suggesting you still have choices. Any of the mainline weapons could be valid options at the end of the game, but they wouldn't be equal on a one for one basis.

Originally posted by spoon:
No, you are suggesting that the PPB is fine as is, but that you would put up with a minor change as compromise. The game, as it is, does not give you significant strategic choice. You have PPBs for the mid game, and APBs for the late game.

If I was suggesting the PPB is fine as is why would I have bothered to make the numerous and detailed suggestions I have made in this very thread to change it. The way I see it we both think the PPB needs some changes. We just have a difference of opinoin as to how much it needs changed. You really need to get to where you can disagree with me without accusing me of misrepresenting myself Spoon.

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Different weapons would require different stratagies to take advantage of their strengths. One better at short range, one at long. One good for small fleets of powerful but expensive warships. One better for massive fleets of cheap, expendable "cannon fodder". I'll admit my vision of balance would be much harder to acchieve, but in my opinion it lends for a richer game.

Originally posted by spoon:
This is what I have been arguing for when I mention giving each weapon a role or a niche. I am glad we can agree on that! However, in order to do that, you have to be willing to make more changes than you seem willing to concede.

No, I don't agree with this. I have stated I agree with the concept of niche weapons. I merely disagree that we should take the PPB, a weapon that has a clear history in SE4 of being a mainline weapon and turning it into yet another niche weapon. How does that give you more choices? I think that you can acchieve choices in different ways. You just have to be willing to accept different interpretations of what balanced is.

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
It's a good one, but it makes me think that perhaps we need a Human-Only Balance Mod as well, since so many good changes that have been suggested (for QR, Talisman, etc) won't work well with the AI. It is proving to be too much of a limiting factor, I think, to make the current mod as useful as it could be.

I have no objection to that, and have said as much several times during this thread and others. I even tried to make one myself, the "Art of War Mod". But that is outside of the limited scope of what we are trying to accomplish here. The primary stated objective is to do the balance changes Malfador does not have the time or incentive to do and try to get them included in the stock game. Massive game altering, or AI crippeling changes will make that objective impossible to acchieve.

Geoschmo

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by spoon:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by geoschmo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tesco samoa:
will you adjust the cost of ppb.

as the cost of ppb is the current balance on it.

Well, I think the prevailing opinion seems to be that the cost as it is does not do enough to balance it.<hr /></blockquote>I think what he is saying is that MM used the high rad cost to balance the PPB, so if you don't think it is balanced now, just raise the rad cost to a higher level.

Very good idea.

Current cost is 300 rad (lvl 5). maybe raise it to 500 (equal to its min cost) and leave everything else as is (well, maybe reduce it's lvl 1 and lvl2 ranges, as suggested earlier...)<hr /></blockquote>What I got from his post, and from previous conversations he has been involved in, was that he disagrees with both of us and thinks it's balanced sufficently as it is by the higher mineral and rad values. And that if we decrease the combat strength of the weapon we should also decrease the costs accordingly. I think most people would feel that combination of changes would be at best neutral.

Geoschmo

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Meson BLaster is a good weapon. It is better than the PPB if your opponent has no unphased shields, except perhaps at range 1, but often not much fleet combat is firing at range 1. It is better than PPB because it is cheaper, and more versatile for designs. On ships with multiplex tracking, it is also better because there is less damage per shot, meaning less wasted damage on overkill.

APB XII, MB V+, and PPB II+ are three of the best all-around weapons in the unmodded game. In surverying all the many other weapons in the game, many of them are much less effificent. Quibbling about how MB should be better is missing the point, unless you're abandoning the other weapons as too much work to even think about.

My current suggestion:

APB - Slightly reduce damage at highest levels (low levels are weak enough)

MB - leave alone

PPB - smooth improvement rate (as in SJ post), increase research cost significantly, increase resource cost a bit

Grav Hellbore - skip all shields, perhaps increase damage

Ripper Beam - Ok as is, though they could have more damage and less range (more like SE3, but not necessary)

Incinerator - Increase damage

Wave Motion Gun - maybe increase damage

Torpedo - increase damage and/or accuracy (do not make ROF 1)

Energy Magnifier, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, etc - make sure torpedo and Graviton Hellbore improvements don't make these weapons obsolete.

Seekers - use the new Settings.txt ability from Last patch to give seekers a defensive to-hit bonus.

PD - reduce to-hit bonus to +30

Fighters - increase defensive bonus by perhaps 20 or so.

Massive Planetary Shield - shields x20 or more

PvK

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Spoon did have a good point. Changing the cost of PPB by a little bit is NOT going to go anywhere near actually improving the balance of the game to be better than it is now. Some big changes (according to your scale, not mine) have to be made, or this is all pointless.

Quote:

APB XII, MB V+, and PPB II+ are three of the best all-around weapons in the unmodded game. In surverying all the many other weapons in the game, many of them are much less effificent. Quibbling about how MB should be better is missing the point, unless you're abandoning the other weapons as too much work to even think about.

Exactly.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Energy Magnifier, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, etc - make sure torpedo and Graviton Hellbore improvements don't make these weapons obsolete.

I'd say they should match any changes made to the most similar regular component.
HEM <-> WMG for example.

As for the WMG, I think a range increase would be best, (considering the scale changes from SE3 they should have about 14-16 range)... Its a low damage, slow reload artillery beam, really. Problem is APBs have 8 range too.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

In regards to PDC being to strong, maybe instead of reducing, just add a random miss modifier of say 10-15%, that way you do not always hit but have a chance of missing, this along with increaseing the size/capacity of ftrs in med and large level make this more balance IMHO. Or with ftrs you could reduce the size of their components to fit more in.

Hellbore, maybe small increase in damage, but increase range and have it firer every 2 turns instead of 3, this would give it more meaning to use.

Also in regards to PD vs seekers/ftrs/missles, the way it currently is PD's are not the only things that can target these types. Suggestion, make PD's only good against them with no other weapons being able to target them, or some type of llimit on the other weapons that can also target these. Later in games, in SP play, PD's are worthless because the other weapons can fire at the seeekers/ftrs/sats as well as other ships, therefore why use them? Point I'm trying to make, either limit seekers/ftrs/sats to only be fired on by PDC's, eliminate other weaspons having these capabilities, or at least cutting back on other weapons that have these capabilities.

just some ideas Mac

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Mac, the random miss modifier would be lowering its inate to hit bonus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

where is the thread at right now? i am not realy going to read through the whole 11 pages, but i myself had been considering such a mod for some time. if theres one being made, i'll give a hand.

What do you have so far? what is being discussed now?

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

would you guys like my personal list of What To Do To Balance Everything?