Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

do we need to delay hosting for abysia? its one of the stronger nations in the game? is anyone being considered for the part?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

on that same note is thedemon still MIA due to moving and not having internet yet? might needa delay both prepo/noobsvvets2 for that? he did post somewhere he was going to be mia and hasn't posted his return yet(despite him having anticipated not being gone quite this long) so it might be a safe assumption?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Any effort to really try to win this game would require a lot more than I'm able to now that I've got only 1 functional hand. It will (should) heal in three weeks but never say never. So either I should get a sub for Abysia that has a lot of energy and time to put on these things, or just fold.

:(

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

yeah i didn't really mean to suggest a 24hour delay would be sufficient to allow atul to play the turn but it would be helping in deciding what to do with the game... no one has posted any serious feedback on what to do... and AI'ing the nation with a GIgANTIC LEAD all of a sudden will really shake the game up

it's a really strong position and atul just needs someone to do his work... he'd have a much easier time catching someone up to speed than actually playing himself i imagine? plus with someone to catch you up to speed that makes the sub position seem even better doesn't it?



so... any takers?.... was zeldor interested? i was certainly asking him often enough... did anyone have specific objections to zeldor playing given secrets you told him? anyone have anyone in mind? how about someone just posts something random and pointless just to let us know that people still read this thread....

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I think I know a bit too much to get into playing Abysia. And Madness is still unresolved, so I rather wouldn't have enough time.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Atul cannot go AI we would have to delay until we find a sub. Putting him to AI does not even seem like an option to me.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

if he goes AI it's basically a new and totally unrelated game but its still a game....

he's not planning to play this turn and you don't want him to go ai we might wanna delay? i mean 4nations are planning to stale and said so before the turn even began.... (although thedemons post for some reason was only on noobsvets2 thread and atul's i think was in irc)

then again we cannot delay forever i don't really know what to say on the matter i wish no one had ever quit from the very beginning or i wish that the community made it easier to get subs....

atul hasn't even posted asking for a sub that i can see? why is that? because a random person won't be any better than ai it has to be someone reliable enough to take over a leading position?




maybe we should hold a vote on AI/delay until playable? also.... if you are going to delay until subbed... its best not to stale the position a bunch (and this'll be 3in a row for la absyia i believe)


oh i see while i was posting zeldor already added a day

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Atul posted for a sub and I can play temporarily for Abysia, but it wouldn't be a good idea to take over permamently. I know a bit too much about some nations. So I will play just few turns.

BTW, anyone knows what is going on with TheDemon? How much would it hurt if he staled? I will add 24h anyway, to give him a chance.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

looking to trade:

blood for gems
items for gems

earth/fire/air for other gems

also looking for unique powerful path mages to charm for various payments

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Hmm... Yomi/Mictlan is still staling. There is no sight of available sub for Abysia and atul has that missing hand affliction for some time. It seems that interest has went really down and selecting winner may be not possible in near future. Maybe we should call it a draw? And set better rules and tweak the map for 2nd edition.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

thedemon has no functioning computer to play his turns on but he told me he was going to use a usb stick to transfer his turns from his computer that can play dominions 3 to another location that has the internet...


so he did tell me he intended to continue playing, and he intended to not quit, and not stale....



as far as finding a sub for abysia ... well... how the heck did wraithlord find 3-4subs all at once for artifacts? maybe we need to subcontract wraithlord to help us find subs....

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

zeldor don't stale! you can add delays anytime you want as admin....

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I'm absolutely against just declaring Caleum the winner. I currently have no intention of going to war against caleum but if that was necessary to prevent them from being declared winner I could no doubt organize an alliance against them.

But Like I said I'd much much prefer to get a good sub for Midgard and continue as we are, Caleum and I are trading partners at the moment anyways so It wouldnt make much sense to go to war with them unless it was absolutely necessary. But I would.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I think in a turn or two peoples jaws will drop when they see my army size spike on the graphs too.. After all I only have a turn and a half of research left before its all done and all my thaums go to reanimating. You can rain of stones the hell out of me if ya want and there will be plenty more where they came from if I dont just shield them with Army of gold in the first place.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I have no problem with a big delay for the game though if it is required for finding a sub or giving Atul time to get back with us.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I don't see any chance to find subs for 2 nations right now, not even for Abysia. Trust me, I tried. And we already got many nations made subs.

You are waking up a bit late with need for some action. The real problem is that atul does not want to continue and wouldn't fight Caelum. And you probably don't have a real idea of how strong Caelum is.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

See my PM. I dont want to disclose my real power in this thread but suffice to say I'm not waking up late for anything.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I find it hard to believe though that you cant get a sub, I just took over as permanent sub for a game that was in pretty much the same position as Atul in this game.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

It might help though if you created an actual Sub Needed thread that also declares the power of Midgard's position. I looked and dont see that you or anyone ever made one, I really dont think that people typically pay that much attention to the last part of the thread title like you have here that says 1 or 2 subs needed at the back end of the title for this thread. Every time I have subbed for someone it was because they started an actual sub needed thread. Thats just my take on it and my experience from volunteering to sub. Not that I'm chewing you out or anything, I think Atul should have done that in the first place and since he didn't it just kind of fell in your lap.

If you want I'll create that post myself.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

There was a thread created. No replies :(

I could maybe take a look at your and Caelum turns?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

i don't think anyone suggested we declare anyone the winner ever....
didn't zeldor just suggest "draw" ? then again i feel this game is really interesting because there are so many powerful unmolested late game positions which can fight eachother i've never actually played any game of PBEM late in the game ... at all... but overall interest seems fairly low.... seems almost like only me and psi are gungho and thinking it is fun

it would be a lot easier to get a sub for the midgard/abysia position if we knew if it was a sub to play both or a sub for each or a sub for one of them... as far as i know atul has said he wants to continue playing as long as he has a partner? did that become false? why hasn't la caelum or pythium gotten their turns in yet?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

From what I understand atul cannot play even 1 nation competitevely on a level to challenge Caelum teams or try to win. So best thing would be to get a sub for a whole team.

And Caelum team is way way stronger than anyone else. QM and Micah can do a lot when they have enough time to do their turns properly :) And you all know what's on the central island.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I understood that it wasnt that Atul didnt want to play but because his hand was injured and in a cast and he was unable for the time being.

But then I didnt talk directly to Atul either thats just what it seems that I read in one of his posts when this started.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

If that is true though that Atul is still interested but simply cannot because of his injured hand/arm than I'd personally like to just put the game on hold for however long it takes him to heal up if he is still interested like I said. (Although I fear that could lead to more problems but...)

I really hate it when games get to this point, but its definitely not over and wouldnt be even if Midgard was never to return. Bogarus and I together could easily challenge Caleum We have almost 100 more gem income than caleum and the two of us probably have more clams and blood stones as well despite micah's chest puffing and thats not to mention Bogarus's unique artifacts. Micah may not think much of them but throw Mari or one of the other still living nations like Vanhiem into the mix and Caleums future doesnt look certain at all.

If it was the overwelming will of everyone in the game just to end it I'd conceede but its not, We have broken Yomi/Mictlan and besides them the only one to stale in recent memory has been Midgard/Abysia. So everyone else is still plugging away at it.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Both of the top 2 teams have no wish to continue this game. The map is too large and the game has gone on too long for any sort of reasonable resolution.

At this point in the game gem income and provinces have been pretty much completely decoupled because of the prevalence of gem generating items, so raiding and even taking over land and forts wholesale does almost no economic damage to the losing side, while saddling the attacker with the horrendous penalties associated with going second in a late game situation. The amount of micromanagement is off the scale, and my nation will shortly be running into hard limits such as the size of the lab constraining forging.

I'm currently up to making 14 clams a turn, and I'm sitting on 170 of the things already. I have been steadily empowering a new clammer every turn for a while now (I took a short break just now to get a third wish caster.) In another 15 turns or so I would be adding 30 clams a turn to my stocks and using the rest of my lab slots to outfit a seraph and a tart every turn, and turning the rest of my pearls into abominations, while burning at least 4 wishes for gems every turn (I'll have the clams to do that in another 7 turns at this rate, without additional clammers). I don't even have a clue what I'd do with the rest of my gem stocks (100 F/E and 70N after clam costs just from wishes). I really have no interest in trying to manage the sheer amount of things that I'd have to summon every turn just to keep my gem stocks from exploding. I actually had to tell QM not to give me any blood stone forgers since I was worried about my lab limits, and clams are better.

That being said, I don't really have any illusions about being able to take on the whole world at once, but given the current diplomatic relations we have I don't think that would have come to pass. Midgard's team is still a lot nastier looking on the charts, and given that no one has mentioned that they were PLANNING on attacking us in the next few turns I think we would have been able to play the diplomacy game well enough to prevent a massive ganging. My claim to a probable win was just based on what likely would have happened if the game did play out to the bitter end, since I think we would have had about a 75% chance of taking a win here with Midgard's team out of the running. Obviously now that I've come out and made our case we'd be subject to a massive ganging, but as I mentioned, this game is pretty much dead in the water already. I've played enough games at this point to have a pretty good sense of when they're pretty well decided, and I think this one is close enough to that point to ask for a concession given the issues with a lot of staling.

Psi - We went through this concession dance in the last team game we were both in. If I recall correctly you didn't manage a single victory against me from the time I asked to call the game until the end. You certainly have more to work with this time around, so you'd likely do a lot better, but as far as track records go I think I have the edge here on making accurate predictions about game state.

This post brought to you by the absurdities of gem generating items and stacking forge bonuses.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

it's not a matter of 75% chance to probably win....

it's a matter of the fact that you have no chance to win anytime soon whatsoever... it's not clear to be an easy victory in any way.... (then again if you have 400pearl income why not just try to win in the next 10turns ? )

you guys had a 75% chance to win from like turn 15 just because you are the best players but we still didn't quit (i mean seriously i never once thought anyone but you would win... but that didn't make me think the game wasn't going to be fun)

if atul quits that would make it so that people would possibly gang up on qm?.... and if atul doesn't quit... he's a fairly good player who could probably put up a 999forge with e9 caster right?

i mean i don't even see the post in which anyone mentioned they thought anyone would be the winner... what page of the thread is it on?


we definitely can't make the people who don't want to play... play...

i haven't thought i could win since turn 20... seriously no chance all game at all

i'm only interested in playing because this has happened in all my games and so i've... never been able to witness any of the cool late game stuff...

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Yeah in that game I didnt have a clam farm at all and the situation was entirely different, I had gone for a massive bless that was actually geared more towards a small map and not a large one like we were on. My clam farm in this game isnt much behind your own, Granted I dont have a forging site to help out like you do which obviously gives that advantage to you but your 170 Clams really doesnt put you that far ahead of me, and I'd be willing to bet that your teammate isnt doing any clam forging of his own so that 170 accounts for your entire teams supply of clams.

If I'm the only one to speak out about keeping the game alive then I suppose we can let it die, after all I am by myself with no teammate I dont have too much chance but there are things I could do that would ROYALY **** you up and all your forging and set you Way back. Obviously I know where you are doing your forging and by default where the majority of your forgers are which is a disadvantage to you in its own right. And there are things I can do that Domes will not protect against and I'm not just talking about armageddon, there are other nastier target specific things that can be done as I mentioned to Zeldor in a PM

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I wouldnt mind having Zeldor take a look at your turn to verify all your claims as well. I definitly wouldnt be conceeding without that at least.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Namad: "but that didn't make me think the game wasn't going to be fun"

It's NOT fun anymore, which is why the top players in this game have all abandoned it (Atul and Homer were bored with the game before they quit, and were doing halfhearted turns, and obviously QM and I are done since I've revealed our position). The map is too big, the economies and recursive gem generation are out of hand, and late game defensive advantage is too much of a hurdle for this to end in anything resembling "fun." My projected income from clams would hit 1000 on turn 100. Managing that many gems effectively is more or less completely impossible, and the game would become about who is willing to spend more time on turns than anything else. There IS no "cool late game stuff," it's mostly just tarts, aboms and seraphs running around beating on each other with defensive blood magic meaning no one can make an effective attack because of Banish/Claws and first turn defender advantage.

Psi: Assuming you don't have a forge site I'm making them for about a third of the price you are. That adds up pretty quickly. QM and I divvied up the blood stones and clams, so no, he doesn't have any clams, but he's been making over 10 blood stones a turn of his own. We could easily up that, especially if I chose to start wishing for blood slaves instead of gems, but I get 6 clams out of a gem wish, so it hasn't been a priority to divert over to slaves.

The major limiting factor on my clam farming has been N, not W. Actually forging them is dirt cheap, and the reason I say we're in better position is because of the rate of expansion we have, not where we are now. I'm adding a new clammer or wish caster EVERY TURN as it stands, and even if you could, I'd still be saving 270 gems/turn over what you'd be spending to clam due to forge bonuses.

I'm sure there's plenty of nasty stuff you could have done. If anyone had actually been doing any of those nasty things to us for the past 10 turns while I was setting all this stuff up I'd be more inclined to give them some weight in the consideration of relative positions, but now that it's somewhat after the fact I'm really not impressed.

At the end of the day though I really don't care that much if I get a win here or not. I'd obviously like it, but if people are going to get bent out of shape about calling the game with a decision instead of calling it a draw I guess I can't do anything about it. One way or the other though the game needs to die. It's been a great lesson in some of the exploits in the game engine, and now needs to be put out to pasture and shot.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I think the game was a blast in the beginning. Conquering fourth of the map fighting mostly people going AI the moment they lost first time is what did it to me.

And Psi, I got the impression your plan was to wait for me and team Caelum to duke it out and then go for the win. Wouldn't have happened. No reason for either team to fight each other while there are smaller fish to be caught first. Like, proxy war.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

what made games on large maps fun in the past? what needs to be done to change things? do larger maps always need to have harder research to keep things more reasonable?

the thing i don't understand is that i've read every post in this thread as far as i can tell... and no where do i specifically see anyone including you... saying anything about thinking caelum would get the win... maybe i missed a page in the thread somehow? i literally just didn't see anyone post about it ever and i was just curious to read the post... so if anyone could point out to me the page #? i'll go read it

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

After Zeldor's post about calling the game due to the staling I asked if we might be able to get a victory by decision since I felt we were clearly in the best spot once homer/atul were out of the picture.

Zeldor asked that I talk to Atul about the situation and Atul said he was fine conceding to us. This all happened on IRC.

Since the two biggest teams were fine ending the game with a decision in our favor we (QM, Zeldor, Atul and myself) were hoping that the rest of the players would also agree to it, since continuing the game was becoming increasingly problematic for the reasons I detailed above.

And to answer your question: what made earlier games on large maps (more) fun was mostly that the player base was more widely spaced in terms of skill when the game was newer, and it was easier to crush inexperienced players and get an advantage to press on into a new conflict, snowballing your wins into a victory around turn 60 before the recursive gem generating really kicks in. I think knowledge about the most optimal tactics was also less widely available, so games didn't turn into as much of a horde-fest. After the experienced of this game I'm hoping to start playing gem-gen free games, it seems like it'll make for a lot more fun.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Maybe you should go AI then Micah and QM since your not having fun and if Atul cant find a sub and doesnt have interest in playing anymore than he can go AI too.

No where on the game thread does it say Victory condition is by having the best position. At least I certainly dont recall seeing that one anywhere. If your not having fun than ****ing quit and let those that are continue without you and your crying and *****ing.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

*shrug* Alright. If you want to play what's essentially SP you're more than welcome to as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see why Zeldor would mind giving you the host files.

You've clearly not been listening to what I've been saying though, which is that the economy of the game is completely broken at this point. That is why the game should be ended, above and beyond any fun factor. I've stuck out every single other game I've been in to the end (see arti and the last team game for examples if you'd like, as well as all of the games I've lost) and this one is a clear exception to that because of how degenerate it has become.

I certainly didn't expect it to happen when I joined the game, but it's undeniable at this point. Saying that QM and I shouldn't have joined this game is like complaining that a ballgame is canceled because a tornado touched down in the stadium. I suppose it's up for debate if the team that was ahead when the game was called should be given credit for a win, but I don't think anyone would blame them for asking.

Regardless, there are clearly exceptional circumstances at work here in terms of the Dominions engine being subject to a few exploits this late into a large game. I guess you just haven't been in enough late game situations to really understand the underlying problems here, but it's pretty clear that all of the vets have given up on this game. I'm just the only one competitive enough to try to salvage a win out of it, since I think our situation justifies it in light that the game is over/broken at this point, and I didn't want to just abandon a winning position without at least seeing if people would be reasonable about things. Evidently not.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

solution to the unfunness problem might be ... fixed duration games...


on turn X whoever has the most Y wins no questions asked.. just before turn X there will be a hot amount of fighting just like in VP grab situations??


if no one has the most Y on turn X it would be a draw...


X could be 40or50or60or70... Y could be provinces or VP's or income/gemincome/provinces (all three required)

this way you wouldn't have to get someone's opinion on if they think something that isn't a win technically should count as a win anyways...


in a fixed duration game i suppose you could also still make it so that if someone obtained 50% of the vp's before the turn X deadline they could "win early"






in baseball a game must complete 5innings for it to be called a win for the team in the lead... such clauses could be added to future games (clauses other than the ones i suggested but again in this spirit of baseball-ness)

i have no problem with someone considering themselves the victory of something at any point... personally i would never accept a victory in which I had not "won" the thing is... if everyone except qm/micah/psisoldier went AI psisoldier would most certainly lose... the other point being though that while qm/micah might be in the "best" position their combined effectiveness is probably something like 45% of the games combined might (which is less than half) BUT there is a) no alliance against them and b) no one willing to play in such an alliance anyways...


you know what would be fair maybe? every team in the game votes and if a majority votes to give the win... then it is a win? because right now as far as i can tell the only voting that has been done is.... micah/qm vote they win psisoldier votes they draw utgard/bogarus wishes to abstain... everyone else is too lazy to have said anything at all that leaves 3teams yet to vote if either of you could get two of them to agree with you that would be fairly good cause to consider yourself "right" ? yes?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I guess maybe I just dont share your pessimism that the game will run on for an eternity. If you went AI and it did then I guess you would have the last laugh but its still a victory by VP game and its my belief that it can still be concluded within a respectable time frame. Although my idea of Respectable time frame may be different from your own.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

if every team except atul/micah's teams still wants to play it might be worth trying to find two subs and continue playing... but if marignon or van don't want to play then it's definitely over... i really wish we could get ossa or drp or someone to voice their opinion on this instead of just ending their game on them without their input

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

One input you are going to get in this thread is to keep it civil. Some of the last few posts have been clearly in the unacceptable category. Don't make it necessary for the mods to reach for the thread tools menu.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I have asked DrP, Gregstrom and Ossa to voice their opinion. I will wait for them and act accordingly.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Well, I think we've actually turned our position around, and that in the aftermath of a titanic battle between Utgard/Bogarus and Caelum/Caelum (is that who is still playing?) we might come out ahead. More likely, though, I'd contribute just enough to whoever I thought was losing, so that they'd win.

Anyway, I don't think that the game is over by any means - if we can set anyone who wants to quit to AI, we can just keep playing.

If we want to avoid something like this in the future, we should use victory point accumulation :).

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

So basically the problem is that everyone is counting on other people fighting while they'd be left in peace, and then conquering the ruins.

Mexican standoff of a kind, resulting in a win by endurance.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

It's true, if no-one intends to fight, the game has ended in a stalemate.

I'm inclined to say that this doesn't = victory for QM/Micah, though, as if they tried to conquer the world I'm not at all convinced they could do it.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Ok, so I think that declaring the game finished with a draw will be best then. Does it sound right?

I think it will be better to tweak the map, and mod removing gem-gens and start 2nd edition.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

also, non-insane victory conditions are good ;)

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Here were not insane, I think. 12/26 VPs to win.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

You know, here I'd completely forgotten the actual victory conditions. I'd think that QM/Micah could jump that many VP pretty easily, actually.

So I'd be willing to concede on that point, but I still think VP accumulation works better. How many VP would QM/Micah have accumulated by now? Like 50 or something?

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Accumulated VPs don't work though really. At least not that in-game ones. You get 1 every mid-summer month for controlling VP.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

why don't you guys play for a few more turns, have micah and qm show their stuff, and see how it lies after the dust clears? It should be pretty clear whether or not they have a bead on some ineluctable march to victory.

otherwise, end it as a draw, as surely all the participants aren't conceding.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

Works for me, although 12 VP between them shouldn't be hard to reach.

As for VP accumulation not working - that's exactly how VP accumulation is *supposed* to work, you get 1 VP / VP province / summer.

I find that requiring twice the VP on the map (that'd be about 50 in this case), causes games to end in this very late stage, so you get to see the end game but it doesn't drag on intermeniably. YMMV.

Re: Preponderance - Big Team Game! [1-2 subs needed!]
 

I just got a new turn file .... so that's the plan, then? Caelum is going for the win or are Micah/QM not playing any more either? Can we set anyone who stales this turn to be AI?