Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

There were 5 players who resubmitted 2h files in the time immediately following the last hosting of turn 21. Outside of the (3-1) who staled, it was Pangaea, Neifel, and Arco who did so. However, it is possible that someone sneaked in a turn between the time I resubmitted the .2h files and the time the now current turn hosted.

Rdonj, you may tell me via PM who you suspect this was. I am very curious.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well Agema, I am glad your back, though I had to move forward with the game not having heard from you since the last hosting now well over 60 hours ago. No delay request, no nothing. As much as I knew it might hurt my team, I did not wish to delay any longer.

As a side note, in the future, I need everyone to adhere to our main post instructions regarding delays. If you are able to, a PM and post on the thread is required along with sufficient time to allow us to honor it.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I object strenuously to the fact that these replacement .2h files were not used. As I've explained to you *repeatedly*, if you're going to do a rollback, you have to let everyone resubmit their turns who wishes to do so.

In my case, I'm actually *at war with Lanka and Kailasa*!!! Even the knowledge that I'm *not* attacking them is potentially valuable. And no, I am not willing to take it at anyone's word that they submitted a turn without seeing my moves. There's an easy fix if you really want to do a rollback.

So, to be perfectly and unambiguously clear: allowing some people to submit turns after having seen the new turn, and not others, is *cheating* and in this case you cheated in favor of your own team. If this happens again I have to resign.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I really do have to agree with Dr. P here. You can't control for who looked at their new turn file - the only fair thing to do is let everyone who chooses to resubmit a turn file, or just let the stales stand.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I agree with Dr. P too.

Everyone can see the turns, and everyone can take appropriate action including those who staled - everyone must be allowed to resubmit their turn. Rollbacks can cause havoc and are tools of last resort, and have to be handled very sensitively.

We appreciate the effort you are putting in trying to run the game, Septimius, but whilst you are taking part in the game you must either allow conventional Dom3 metarules on these things or secure the explicit agreement of all other team captains to do otherwise (you can reasonably represent the Mysterios in a pinch). It is crucial the game is not unbalanced by accusations of bias. Luckily, I think in this case there has been minimal havoc, advantage or disadvantage, and I think we can move on.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The question is a question of game balance.

Three people staled. Letting 9 people redo their turns based on game knowledge unbalances the game far more than letting 3 people redo their staled turns.

We attacked vanheim by surprise on turn 20. Allow vanheim to redo his turn, and I am sure my remote attack spells will encounter PD and fail. Its a HUGE difference.

Likewises, Dr. P's team is doing huge amounts of manual site searching. Thats 5 blanks you can redo.

The point of the rollback is to make the game *more* fair, not less. Allowing 9 people to redo their turn is *almost* as bad for the 3 people that were disenfranchised as the original stale, since those 9 players will optimize their turns.

Yes, I agree that those three people now have a small advantage. But three people with a small advantage is less disruptive than 12.

However, sept, wheneve there's a rollback I do think you have to allow a full measure of time for the fallout to settle. And finally, I don't think you should have made the decision. You should have left it with Gandalf, as you originally proposed.

On our team, Pangeae was taken over by shard (Thanks shard!) - and due to the time being pushed up - we were not able to advise him how to play the nation. We had critical things we wanted to do - send magic items to our team.

So we advised Gandalf and SS and SS was going to leave the decision to Gandalf. Now I think that our team was probably more damaged than anyone, but even so I think we all need to accept that #!@! happens and move on.

Dr. P; admins have to adjudicate what happens in a game. You can disagree with a ruling without calling it cheating.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I have done everything I can to prevent cheating in this game. I am ultimately responsible for ensuring no cheating occurs. Yes, I could have put 24 hours on the clock and allowed everyone to "cheat" by having an opportunity to look at the new turns and resubmitting their turns. I did not want that sort of delay considering how long the turn had already ran. I only wanted the 3 who needed to resubmit to do so. Anyone else who had appeared to have done so when I checked the turns recieved file, I merely extracted their original orders file and submitted that.

In the case of the 3 who staled, I did not have any of their original .2h files and to load up their .trn files would have been unethical with the exception of Lanka from my team. And in that case I did absoletly nothing but simply hit the end turn button, causing him to effectively stale, so I detrimented my own team to some degree just to ensure fairness overall.

I understand your objection, DrP, letting everyone cheat may have been the only fair way to handle it but I did my best to limit what cheating may have occured whilst also attempting to limit the time impact of this rollback for everyone else.

I did not want to do this rollback, you all know how time conscious I am considering how lenient the turn intervals are already. It was a difficult decision. Me and Gandalf did this rollback because it was the only ethical thing to do. Sort of like when you go into a store and see an advertised discount, but when you get to the register they tell you there was a mistake and that that particular discount has expired. The store manager/owner must really do the ethical thing and honor the advertised discount. That is why the rollback was done, even though I knew it might lead to issues.

In the future Gandalf and I will be more vigilante on making sure the timer is correct. And we shall do no more rollbacks unless there is a server error or a game bug. I did not want the first rollback because I thought it was unfair to the other teams and I did not want this one. But what is done is done. This has been a learning experience for all of us as Gandalf has put it. This is a very complicated game to admin, because of the number of teams and the issues we have faced. Gandalf is however only the host of the game, he is responsible for ensuring the timer is correct and that the server operates correctly, but I am responsible for keeping cheating in check. Allowing him to make that decision, I realized would be beyond the scope of his duties. As I realized that asking him to make the decision on a rollback or not was likewise not within the scope of his duties really unless there was a server issue as there appeared to have been.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Chris raises a legitimate question - and the only solution is to have no rollbacks at all.

To be perfectly clear - suppose Vanheim had staled. Do we then *not* do a rollback, because Chris delivered a surprise attack that turn? Is that fair? Does Vanheim get to see his turn if he staled, and not if he doesn't?

If we all have a chance to redo our turns, then at least Chris has the chance to attack different provinces, or another player entirely, etc. I agree that it''d suck for this to happen to Chris - but this is exactly what *did* happen to me and Illum., and we didn't even get a chance to change targets!

We certainly cannot make exceptions based on specific tactical situations in order to be "more fair". Either don't do rollbacks at all (which works), or, if you do a rollback, for technical glitch reasons or whatever in the future, let everyone resubmit turns before the rollback goes through.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

No exceptions were made for any tactical situations. Just as in a rollback for a corrupt turn file by a single player that causes a server issue, only that player should be allowed to resubmit, not everyone else. If they or anyone else violates ethical rules, I am empowered as the admin to disqualify that player. There's many ways to handle a rollback and various arguments pro and con for doing it one way or another.

Everyone should be adhering to an ethical code of play just like your admin. Shame on anyone who has done otherwise. Take me for instance, I can look at anyone's turn file, I can look into other team's forums, but never once have I ever done this. Never have I been tempted either. I am even hesitant to look at my own teammates turns without their permission.

Edit:

Letting everyone have an equal chance to "cheat" is one way of being fair and we can do that in the future, but we'd also have to give everyone a fair chance to get another turn in meaning another 40 hour delay, 12 hours or 24 hours would not be fair to everyone.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

WOW. Forum posts, emails, PMs, etc all on this same subject. Let an old outsider toss some things in here.

(A) Everything has its pros and cons. Most of the games have someone making the decisions that is also playing in the game. Why? Because very few people are willing to host, admin, continually read the threads and forums, moderate, and generally keep up on a game they are not in (subtle hint). If this bothers you then feel free to start such a game.

(B) I dont want to sound snobbish but there are 2 levels of comments going on. Those that have, and those that havent. Well actually 3 levels since there are also those that have and have done it enough to be tired of it already. (Im referring to admining a game)

Now my personal take on all of it would be
1) move forward
2) avoid changes, unless absolutely necessary just move forward
3) the game belongs to the person running the game, everything else is please and thank yous
4) I am not the person running the game (I only carry out their wishes)
5) if I wanted to run the game (as if I had forgotten years of lessons in that area already) I would have started the game. I WILL support anyone who for some strange reason wants to take on admining their own game

DISCLAIMER: lack of sleep is making me grumpy or I would have worded this all nicer. Also Im no longer staff so pttthhhhfffff

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Eh, sorry I was one of the stalers, and noone attacked me, so I wasn't affected the slightest. Except that I got a chance to bid on the mercenary, that someone else got in the rolled back turn, but then I had no idea what he bid. So I was basically bidding under the assumption that someone else would do too, which I'd have done anyway. Or maybe not, I don't know. But after privately accepting the stale and playing the new turn, I can't go back from that.
I'd say lets just move on, unless someone can think of something better to do.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I agree that the best thing to do is move on from here.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yes, I agree lets move on, another interesting debate nonethless and I glad to see that people care enough to participate. My decisions were calculated largely to keep things moving as quickly as possible at the same limiting the opportunity for inappropriate behaviour as best I could. I'm an unconventional admin and this game breaks so many conventions it is hard to keep track:

1. Conventional games use CBM.
2. Conventional games host via Llamaserver.
3. Conventional games have a hosting interval of 24 hours till turn 20 at least.
4. Conventional games are FFA type games, not team games.
5. Conventional games don't include AI opponents.
6. Conventional games have a single admin.
7. Conventional games don't require months of preparation.
8. In conventional games admins don't put in the amount of time and effort that has been put into this game.

And the list goes on.

So lets get those turns in my friends and enemies.:up: Where's my turn enforcer?:D

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

heehee. I think about half of those are more "impression" than fact. :)
As for the rest, Im majorly in favor of unusual games and feel there is even more territory to cover. The only reason to seek a standard in the games is for ranking purposes

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Personally I do like games that do something a little different to keep things interesting every once in a while. It's like when I played starcraft. You can only play so many ffa games before you start to feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over. That's not really fun to me. It also doesn't help that I'm not really a competitive player. So I tended to gravitate more towards custom maps.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yes, one certainly gets the "impression" of that from looking at a sampling of the game theads on the Dom3 Shrapnel MP forum, which is what I was generally referring to. This is especially true for noobs who may not be aware of Gandalf's server or other games and options available. I bet if we were to look at the first page only, of the MP games thread here, we would find what I have said above to be true in 95% of the cases.:D

Yes, cooperative games are so important but so rare (on Llamaserver anyway), and more unusual settings and pretender builds need to be utilized. Players should have choices among modded, unmodded Dom3, hosting platform, hosting interval, team or FFA, etc.

Our emphasis on team themes in the next game will hopefully bring something different without everyone trying to cover all the bases so to speak. This would leave interesting weaknesses and strengths. Everyone seems to go with variation of E and N blesses on their pretenders. I'd like to see some D9 or B9 blesses for once. Especially in a team who's theme is death or blood.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Rollbacks are always bad. Sorry, just chiming in. But rollbacks are indeed, always bad.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It's crazy how many eXnX blesses are being used this game. Two players on your team alone ;). An e/n bless can be very nice, but is not always the best choice. There are some nations that frequently take death blesses, but a b9 bless is just not very likely to be seen. If the death curse wasn't mr negatable, maybe you'd see people take it, but there's pretty much no reason as it stands to go above b8.

What I'd really love to see is someone running an a9 bless and taking everyone to the cleaners ;)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

By the way lanka, pan, sauromatia - Get your turns in! *cracks whip*

After waiting so long for that last turn I'd really like to get rolling again.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Eh, I like to hold my turn for this game ~20-24 hours just in case a teammate needs me to do something, to ensure the game doesn't host in the interim. But as my team is entirely in, and the team forums are silent, I suppose I can be bothered to submit my turn.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I can understand the sentiment. My team is usually pretty good at getting all the talking done within 24 hours. Sometimes we do take a little longer, in which case I hold on to my turn until it looks like plans are finalized. My team seems to hold pretty similar hours though, and there's no guarantee all of you have that same luxury. Plus I get the feeling team ACGHHS likes to talk more than the rest of us :)

Anyway, we are just waiting on agema now.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

and we appreciate squirrel doing so....

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Agema, give it up please. We should be in double time mode.

Players, give your admin a nice gift this holiday season.

I'm very easy to please.

All I want for Christmas is turn 40 in my inbox. :p

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

So, the upshot of the rehost: instead of a 1500gp event, I got a disease on my A3 jarl. And now, I have to decide if I'm going to let Yomi and Kailasa live, in order to pursue war with the rain of toads source (which I'm all but 100% certain is ACGHHS.)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Almost forgot this game.

A water pipe burst right over Frozen's computer today, sounds like its time to grab an alternate.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Damn, go off to jury duty and all hell breaks loose.
Interesting tho.

Mictlan stands ready to auction off blood and nature.
Pm bids.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Ah yeah I'm sort of the spoiler when we want to get any team discussion done, being in Japan GMT+9. I tend to ignore calls for team meetings at EST 7 or the like, whatever it is that EST means anyway....

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Province Leader: Ulm with 22

Most Castles/Forts: Mictlan with 6

Wealthiest Nation (income): Ulm at 2052 gold per turn

Gem Leader: Hinnom at 29 per turn

Top Researcher: C'tis at 2924

Greatest Dominion: C'tis at 319

Largest Army: C'tis at 1380

Most powerful nation based on above: C'tis, followed by Ulm

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Bids done. Bids for next turn commence.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Just get your turns done and in. I'm getting tired of waiting on you slackers.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Time to bump this thread.

Well, turn 25 and the AI Team looks to be on the way out. They do seem to have posed a challenge, at least for some of the players, and perhaps for some of the more veteran players as well.

Abysia has 0 provinces, but I am assuming they've not been officially eliminated yet since you generally receive a message about it when that happens.

Ermor is down to 8 provinces, Agartha has 7, and C'tis only 6.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Didn't you look at your shiny new turn? Abysia is dead now =)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Your right, correction Abyssia is OFFICIALLY dead. Poor Abyssia. How long can the other 3 AI nations hold out?

Will war break out again between the human teams before the rest of the AI team is completely eliminated?

In the end, only one team will be victorious. Who will that be? :confused::D

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Could Micah and the members of the blessed ones please check out our boards and comment on what i wrote?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It is good to see the Dom3 MP and Mods forums still so active with new games organizing and starting, including some with non-standard settings. Diminishing interest (in the absence of a new release) would be a bad thing for the community as a whole I'd wager.

Speaking of interest, I hope everyone is keeping active teamwise and staying up-to-date on forum or other communications as much as possible. With the expansion phase of the game drawing to a close, there will be engagment sooner or later. No game in the NvV series lasted over 40 turns, but this game may break that record it seems. When to attack? Who to attack? How to attack? How much research is enough? Questions that teams will need to answer going forward.

Reminder to Captains: If your alternates have flown the coop (not unusual as time goes by) and there's been no reply to attempted communications, it is always wise to find replacements especially if you believe they may be needed at some point.

Game Note: I'll be posting a poll on the team forums as we near turn 30 regarding whether or not to increase the hosting interval to 56 hours. Please look for it and make your opinion known.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Poor gorgon.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

What is the stance for a christmas break here?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

We should hopefully complete turn 30 by that time, we will then have several options depending on the needs and wishes of the players and the availability of subs:

1. Move to the 56 hour host (if voted for) and/or otherwise remain on schedule
2. Do what we did over Thanksgiving (keep hosting active but remove the timer for a few days)
3. Shut off hosting altogether for few days over the holiday

Remember, if you vote for the 56 hour host that will remain in effect for at least 10 turns and is really independent of the holiday decision, though it is one way of buying a little extra time for both Christmas and New Years.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, I'm not sure when I have computer access so I vote 2.
If I'm the only one I can also try to get a sub.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

This time of year games are usually sent to an untimed quickhost, until the New Year.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Unrelated question:

Did hosting go off correctly? Grudge states that he checked the hosting time yesterday; it had 44 hours till hosting; and that hosting occurred less than 44 hours thereafter.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I submitted with 2h showing on the hosting clock, fwiw.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I also vote for option #2.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

option 2

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

As far I can could tell there haven't been early hosting issues unrelated to quick host since turn 20.

Perhaps, but of course it is whatever the majority of players want and the needs of the game dictate that ultimately will decide. Personally, I try to avoid notions of what is "normal", "usual", "customary", and or "coventional".

Players: Don't forget to vote on the hosting interval. Unless it is capped by vote it will continue to grow by 8 hours every 10 turns.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Hmm, I see the AI is still hanging around. It is as though they are mocking some of you "vets" who said the AI would be easy to defeat and stupid. It seems at least some players are playing whack-a-mole with a few of them. I check one turn and they are down by so many provinces, next turn, they are back up.

Aside from the artistry of Gandalf, the AI does have something going for it:

1. It can "think" and analyze all possible moves far faster than any human player. This gives it the ability to do a 100 province turn with all the micromanagment in seconds whereas even the best vets might need several days.

2. It doesn't need to sleep, eat, doesn't get tired, has no real life issues to worry about. It is relentless in the extreme.

3. I don't know the precise programming logic behind the AI's actions and what is actually filtered from it "such as unscouted provinces", but since it is the AI, it has the potential to "know" everything already, including every move you make. Sorta like playing chess with another player than can read your mind.

:)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I am almost certain that the AI doesn't see your moves. Put another way - on the occasions when I have rehosted a turn for one reason or another, doing different things, the AI has always* done the same thing(s) each time.

* There are funny things with how movement works, so I can't be 100% certain on this.

It may have super-scouting info or something, though.

Other than that, you're right about the micromanagement. The computer is a better small-force raider than most human players for this reason.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Actually that is a very insightful awareness you have of a major part of AI programming.

Players always complain that "the AI cheats" and the programmer has "given" the AI too much info. But its the reverse. You are starting with a "player" that is internal to the game. So the problem is trying to remove information that the AI automatically has access to. In something as simple as the map you are talking about giving each AI its own virtual copy of the map instead of allowing it access to the games operating map which the program is working with at the same time.

Its only done really well in games that support bot players as game AIs. Ive worked on such before. Its something I dearly love and wish Dom3 would support. But then again, for a 2 man team whose main jobs is not game programming they did well.

==========
And I agree. The AI is doing better than I expected with so little help given to it. We are seeing the result of the simplest level of AI instructions. Choice of pretender, scales, magic, etc all from basic player-level instructions from nation guides posted here in the forum. Id like to see more Player vs AI vs Player games.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Gandalf - is there anyway to investigate Grudges claims - that either the game hosted quick, or the website was in error on the time posted? (ie, difference between web and game?).

We got REALLY killed by his stale - its fine its part of the game. But I'd REALLy like to make sure it doesn't happen again, if its at all attributable to math, software, etc.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It isn't the artistry of the AI that's keeping them alive- its the exigencies of the players.

ie., we're all fighting the ai's with one hand behind our back.
Or two.