Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Yes. The traits/facilities do not prevent events from happening, they just shift the targets around. I am not sure if a system protected by a 100% facility can be hit by a random event or not if there are open systems elsewhere with appropriate targets. But, if all systems have the same level of protection (even 100%), it all evens out and gets you back to the starting chance of each system being hit by an event. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This does not make your Epic facilities useless, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit:
Beat to post, for once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ October 01, 2003, 21:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I belive he stated in that post.

"
Unless, of course, there is no valid target for the event, such as a ship bomb when there are 0 ships in the game. I do not know what happens then; the game either cans the event for that turn or it picks a new event type."

I belive it will be CANED...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If what you say is true and I do not beleive it is correct, then how is the MM fix really fixed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Reference
Version History for Space Empires IV
Version 1.66:
8. Fixed - "Lucky" racial trait was not always working.
9. Fixed - Abilities "Change Bad Event Chance - System" and "Change Bad Intelligence
Chance - System" were not always working.

[ October 01, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Those just mean that the code for that was glitchy and was not always taken into account when selecting a target system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Go run some tests. I might do the same. But, I must leave now, so bye. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just make 2 systems, 2 human players. Mod a free facility (no tech, no resources) that does 100% fate shrine ability, increase chance of events, see what happens.

Oh, and if you want to email MM about this, feel free to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 01, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Here is some published and recent data in regards to Traits effecting Events; to get your test started with: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Half of what I believe to be true, I based on this, in regards to the modifying of the the Base setting sum.
Please note the Lucky race: Absolutely no event

PTF's Events tests

=============================
Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak :
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ October 01, 2003, 22:39: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by JLS:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bottom line, and to resume posted information and to recap my perceived resulted overall Event actions.

If a player starts a game in default LOW 10% or even Medium 30% Frequency Setting as there option it should NEVER be critical for that player build a Heroes Epic Facility or a Faith Shrine as I posted.

Some MODS have Event Percent Chance L=15 - Med =30 and High =45 and that file works very fine at default.

AIC will be 10% higher then that High setting.

= = = =
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ October 02, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I ran a test, here is a log file:

test.txt

I am not convinced that the change bad event chance ability and the traits were ever fixed... again, you should run some tests. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have a zwheihander handy (heh) to thwack anyone that wants to complain about using non-default files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Thanks Fyron, will do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I will test at a default setting of Chance 25% Event; not "changed event chance in Settings.txt to 100"% as this MAX and unrealistic setting may counteract with the -CBEC. And with a -30 Fate Shrine as we discussed in the earlier Posts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Probaly with a few other AI Players, 1 ntrl and myself for 5 Players in total.
Counting manually and loging the events that Hit me with out the Fate Shrine, and then the count with the default -30% Fate Shrine III.

Any and all may join with this test, but please use all se4 DEFAULT FILES. To include stock se4 events file. Game event freq HIGH and stock -30 Fate Shrine III Facility and about 4 to 6 total players. This will insure all files are of indentical benchmark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also note: You will be hit with more frequant events as the other Players die or removed form game. And the added builds of a -30% Fate Shrine may reduce these hits providing there are three or more Races Total. At 2 Races it may hard to count the minus effects of your new Fate Shrine.

= = =

In additon Fyron, do you feel the trait lucky also has not been fixed; by reducing in game overall events?

[ October 02, 2003, 00:46: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When testing AI Campaigns next release, as the AI Players die and removed from the game the Event frequency to hit the ALIVE players is increased, for example game started with 10 Players there are now 4. With the events, chance set greater then 50% percent I was being hit by events quite frequent. By building the �40% Heroes Epic the Events was reduced significantly� If a MOD is set for Event chance percent to be greater then 30 or 60% depending on MOD, then there will need to be access to -CBEC for ALL Players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 01, 2003, 12:50: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS, my question was, would there be players who will NOT build the facilities reducing the chances for events? (Or players who will build the Shrines improving the odds of an event that is) I can see fairly easily why I would like to reduce the events in a given system/all systems, but not the contrary.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, all it will do is mean you have to hit end turn fewer times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But if you want to hit end turn a lot, go right ahead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The purpose of making a 100% fate shrine was to see if you could get total protection of a system, which you apparently can not. From what I was seeing, you do not appear to get any protection at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hopefully it was a fluke and MM is not delusional with the "fix." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The reduced number of events was to make a reliable benchmark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have no idea on the lucky trait, but I assume it uses the exact same code fucntions, just accessed from different places. Why write the same code twice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 04:22: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

When it comes to Faith there are and will be very many believes and controversy�s. This is not a bad thing in the game, I mean really who will believe that an Heroes Epic can increase events in a System by up to 20% with their Civilization Heroes, Idols and Gods that dabble with the events. Or a Fate Shrine that can be used by all with the believe their Civilizations thoughtful seers who may predict the future and can avert disasters by as much as 40%.

This is also what faith is all about, and it is good that there will be diversity in believe and disbelieve of the possibilities.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 11:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I plan on playing a the se4 game as and the only Religious Trait player in that se4 game.
Therefore, when I end my turns it will be with the satisfaction of Playing Space Empires with PvK�s trait Balance MOD with about 4 AI Players and Logging the events in a High Frequency Events game with the consideration that the Fate shrine {may} be of benefit for my race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The only modification will be to give my race all the Fate Shrines from the start, with the default benefits of the Happiness, CBIC, and CBEC. And the enjoyment of playing PvKs Trait Balance MOD that keeps the CORE se4 DATA intact and changes the Characteristics Cost as to represent Balance and the enhanced Culture choices are fantastic and may be right on for anyone that enjoys roll playing in there Space Empires game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 11:11: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

If you plan to compare two or more games with different system event modifiers, make sure the number of systems is the same in all test games. I think it could be a good idea to create as many systems as players. The smaller the galaxy the better to observe event distribution (my favorite word).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What is a 100% FS? Is it -1000 ?
BTW, I have seen some other data than the cursed races got all events. It has not always been the case, it was weird, sometimes the events have happened almost exclusively at one planet, sometimes even at a lucky one. I think the event fixes have changed something, but who knows what?

[ October 02, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I had only 2 systems and 2 players in my test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The game refused to load the facility file if the ability was any more negative than -334 (or was it -333?), as can be seen in my test log. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I used an ability of -100 in my tests. I could use positive values greater than 334, but did not really test for the limit. I have no idea whether this trait is stored in 10ths or 1s. It would be best to ask MM on that, as randomness makes it difficult to test (that, and you can not use -1000... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ).

[ October 02, 2003, 21:24: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks, PTF.
Good point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I am playing with a small Spiral map with 26 Systems with a high event setting =25%. I have 7 Systems Colonized now. 6 total Players with 2 neutrals in the game.

The First 120 turns resulted with 4 Event hits to my empire, Plague being the worst.

Exactly at turn 121 the -30 Fate Shrine III was built in the Home System only.

Plan to play another 100 turns before the second -30 Fate Shrine is built in another System.

I am turn 132. With the defensive positions strengthened from the eminent threat of invasion from the Jraenar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

In regards to the same amount of Systems as players, how often is that kind of a game played, what this suggests will direct all Events to a Home System. The goal is to play and to test the events in a real game environment with 4-6 Players, a small map (with about 12 to 30 Systems; whatever the participants desires to track events with Fate Shrines, with the emphasis on playing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 03, 2003, 11:42: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">= = =

It may be best to use the Fate Shrine in actual game play, it does have an impact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When I was play testing the game Last week with a very high chance % frequency 60+% , and with a start 10+ Players then as the players dropped out of play; the Event distribution HITS start to become enormous and problematic per player.
The minus -CBEC Epic Facility did help, a lot.

In the 25% Chance se4 game I have now with only 6 Players and I have 7 System out of 26. It appears that just the one �30 Fate Shrine built in the Home System seems to have an effect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 03, 2003, 11:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

One test game is certainly not conclusive, as their is a lot of quirky randomness in the SE4 event generation. Ask PTF. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

There could be even a different event handling between simultaneous and classic movement, see my Last post:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...3;t=009929;p=1

On the other hand this could have been also a matter of randomness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In addition, is some of this quirky behavior from the new wave of Event files themselves? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
With some of the redundennt no matter how modified that event is, we are working into our mods. In essence, even though we may change the effect and or Severity etc this does not change the fact that it is a duplicate and may yield some interesting but extraordinary results.

I found in the early tests of the new and improved reorganized event file the infamous 4.01 beta that some events would expel back to back. And when I started reducing some duplicate events (FOR EXAMPLE �5 PC �10 PC and the dreaded �20 PC to just one -5 PC that this every now and then back to back hit was no longer.
This is fine for a good event like +PC or +PV or even +POP but not good for a duplicate of for example Planet Destroyed or even Close Warp.

I also am going back to basics with se4 event files for a few long and drawn out games, as a refresher on the events also to see, since the se4 Defaut lacks duplicates is there any definable routines.

Then to get back to finishing the current AIC Event file that is not even close to resemble the 4.01beta, to insure that if there is any definable routines; that with in reason this be exclusively for good Events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

= = =
EDIT: Also to remind AIC Players that the AIC Event tests at the PTF test site reflects the Obsolete 4.01 Events Beta file I originally requested to be tested Last august or September. And as a result of that test and others along with input from, Oleg, GLV, PTF, Fyron and Others the AIC�s Event file is coming along very nicely.
Not to say there are not a few edges in need to be honed still. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 03, 2003, 17:39: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, all it will do is mean you have to hit end turn fewer times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But if you want to hit end turn a lot, go right ahead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The purpose of making a 100% fate shrine was to see if you could get total protection of a system, which you apparently can not. From what I was seeing, you do not appear to get any protection at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hopefully it was a fluke and MM is not delusional with the "fix." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The reduced number of events was to make a reliable benchmark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have no idea on the lucky trait, but I assume it uses the exact same code fucntions, just accessed from different places. Why write the same code twice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">JLS, I also agree with Fyron I don't think Aaron ever fixed the Fate Shrine either, I don’t know why Aaron said he did if he if he really never did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ October 05, 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, all it will do is mean you have to hit end turn fewer times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But if you want to hit end turn a lot, go right ahead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The purpose of making a 100% fate shrine was to see if you could get total protection of a system, which you apparently can not. From what I was seeing, you do not appear to get any protection at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hopefully it was a fluke and MM is not delusional with the "fix." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The reduced number of events was to make a reliable benchmark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have no idea on the lucky trait, but I assume it uses the exact same code fucntions, just accessed from different places. Why write the same code twice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">JLS, I also agree with Fyron I don't think Aaron ever fixed the Fate Shrine either, I don’t know why Aaron said he did if he if he really never did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">GLV I believe the Fate Shrine works as Aaron and MM say it does, why is it that you feel it does not?

[ October 05, 2003, 21:17: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Even when I had the ability on -100, the events were equally distributed between 2 systems. They were not even distributed slightly differently. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tested it with event chance 100%, 4 races and one system per race. I also removed alot of good and a few duplacate bad events from your beta event file to see if bad events would occur and they DID http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I think the problem is in your test, GLV.

The se4 Fate Shrine does work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 07, 2003, 14:08: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

The only thing that could be wrong with his test is if he built a fate shrine in every one of those systems. If not, his test is perfectly valid (assuming he tried a couple games and hit end turn sufficiently long to get a good average). Have you run actual tests Qbrigid, or are you just saying that?

[ October 07, 2003, 15:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tested it with event chance 100%, 4 races and one system per race. I also removed alot of good and a few duplacate bad events from your beta event file to see if bad events would occur and they DID http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">GLV, there are many ways to test a file.
If I may ask you to consider the parameters of your test with this following example:

Lets say you are about to test a Tractor Trailer Truck.

Chance is the equivalent of the throttle. You may consider that setting the chance of 100%; may be synonymous of putting a Cinder Block on the gas pedal (FULL THROTTLE)

By removing some of the Events; this MAY be synonymous with emptying the Trailer and having a Lighter Vehicle for your test. (Less LOAD Distribution)

Now setting the Systems to one per Player; is synonymous with test-driving this Truck with Trailer, in a test track that ovals your (DOMICILE) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Lets recap your test:

1: At Full Throttle
2: Little Load in the back end and with out any good distributions.
3: That is with your House, home and family in probable harms way.

All this to test a simple brakeing system; that is synonymous with the simple �30% Fate Shrine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Please try a 25 or 30% chance with the se4 stock Event file at default with an average but small Starting set-up. To test the -CBEC Fate shrine, you may see some effect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 07, 2003, 18:41: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Event chance 100 only means that events occur more frequently, so it takes less end turn clicking to rn tests. It has no bearing whatsoever on the Fate Shrine ability....

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

While i wait my printer to finish my Last work let me hare with other Users of AI Campaign MOD the modification that i did in the mod (redundant isn't it?):

I reduced the pop mass, allowing the starliner modules to transport 10M instead of the 1M of the MOD, and changed the starting maintenance of the empire from 100 to 25, reducing it a lot.

I found that, with these modifications, it was possible to have a faster game with AI Campaign, while i don't noticed any degradation of the AI.

I reduced maintenance beacuse in 9 time in 10 i'm beaten to death by AI empires that have lots of ships while i cant support a mere LC squadron of 10 ships....

Thanks again for this wonderful mod, it really changed the way i saw SEIV....

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Agreed, on Pop Transfer and early game Reproduction levels being slow and sometimes arduous in current AIC v3.02.

AIC v4.0 will have an answer to increased Population transfer and Reproduction Rates as a starting Human Player Advantage Option.
AIC v4.0 will also reduce the need for Starliners also as an Option and this all will not have need to change any Base Setting for AIC that most enjoy.

However:
AIC is based on MASS =1000 any change will have global effects.

Reducing the Maintenance numbers down is also the equivalent to not needing many Mineral Planets and sure, this works for you and it will make your game EASY.
However, I have already made avail options for you to increase your Productions with even other advantages as well.
In addition to any Trait Options, Characteristics and Culture Options you have choosen at pre game set-up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Please lets look at the Numbers: an average 10 CL Squadron is the equivalent of
Average Level III CL = 1750 to 2000 per for a Total 17500 to 20000 Minerals.

Average (good) Medium Breathable Mineral Planet at 105% and all else even. With 16 Mining Settlement= 6750. With 16 Mining Colonies=9600 and with 16 Mining Complex=12800
Now introduce Industrial Centers and Industrial Complex above can increase as high as 30% upon 30% of that total. At level II, III and Level II respectfully may yield 14000 plus output of Minerals; from just one Medium Mining Colony in a well Colonized System. A Large Mining Colony would yield a Larger amount etc.

With this said, you only need One Medium and One Small Breathable Mining Colony (not even to count your Home World) to produce the required Minerals for just that Squadron.
Also to Consider your Trade Dividends with other Empires this is easily obtainable and to also consider there are many more Planets out there for you to still invest in, also to mention astroide minning, surplus resourse trading at your Trade Center or with a direct offer to another Race and/or pure intimadation to gain extra needed Resourses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Key is to Plan your Research to improve your Economy to be able to afford Ships and to maintain the building of Facilities, Cities and infurstructure to afford more Ships to gain control of more Systems to repeat this process http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
= = = =

The AI Players Fleets have a Make-up, that is not inclusive to any one Class of ship, so it is rare you will find the AI with 10 Light Cruisers.

With a drastic cut in the settings and with the current always upgradable AIC Engineering Section Component and the AIC Maintenance Facility for the Human Player; sure it will be easier and quicker for you to achieve 20 Cruisers with a few Carriers and you should ROCK. In addition, if you wish to capture planets; this is further an investment that you have made expeditious, this also pertains to the increased resources to have for many BSY's, SSY, Defence Bases, Repair/Support Ships and etc - not to mention Stellar Manipulations and or Tectonics Vessels� With the less demand for Resources, you can now build many Intel Facilities with an off balanced attack on the AI, research for you should now be at an unbalanced ease, etc.

A reduction or change in base AIC settings will change the Balance, and the game may be come redundent from game to game when margins are widened.

Please utilize the supplied Starting AIC Human Player advantage Trait options and any or all MP Point bonus to add to your Character, you will achieve an advantage in the game and you may have that "Dream Team" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif with out the worry about semi permanent DATA changes.

= = = =

The goal for AI Campaign is for any one AI Player to beat any Human Player 4 out of 10 times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As it is now, with AIC v3.02 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
At AI Bonus NONE: most of us beat the AI 90% of the Time.
At AI Bonus LOW: most experienced Players beat the AI 60% of the Time.
At AI Bonus Moderate: very experienced Players win about 30% to 40% of the time and it is near impossible to beat the AI with a poor start.

AIC Version 4.0 is expected to inadvertently increase Human Player results for victory in all but High AI Bonus games; also to reduce some of the current Human Player Micro Management with AIC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

High bonus is reserved for some to most multiplayer Games that may include only one or possibly two AI major Players, certainly just Neutrals.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 08, 2003, 23:16: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Thanks for the in-depth analisis of my changes of your Mod, it really helped me to have a better understanding of the effects of my changes.

In fact, i'm increasing the maintenance setting again (no to the original, but not so low as the way i was using...)

My major problem with the game is beacuse i'm a very poor player, because i like to roleplay a lot, and don't use advantages that would go against the "characterization" of my race...

One example: my race don't use fighters or mines...

One thing that frustrated me was battles where, in a Medium tech start, None AI bonus, No Tactical Combat, i had a Fleet composed of around 10 Light Cruisers with beams and the AI came with a fleet of around 20 Frigates, also with beams, and it completely anihilated my fleet with only light damage to the AI ships...

One answer could be that i have a bad design of ships, but i always try to counter the designs of the AI, i.e.: if the AI use Armor skipping beams, i invest heavily in shields and don't use armor in my ships, and vice-versa...

In the example mentioned above, i would think that 20 Frigates would be equally matched with 10 Light Cruisers, because one ship (Frigate) is roughly the half of the tonnage of the other (Light Cruiser), but my LC's keep being minced with none or only small damage to the AI ships..., and when the AI started to use fighters my battles became worse, because i had to strip weapons/armor/shields of the ships to get space for Point-Defense...

I reduced the maintenance so i could have more ships to counter the AI, because i found that to counter a AI frigate i needed one Light Cruiser, and my fleets only became effective when i had one LC for each of the AI's Frigates...

It is intentional that one AI Frigate is the equivalent of one player Light Cruiser? Or i'm doing something wrong?

With the reduced maintenance (from 100 to 25) i started to defeat the AI 50% of the time in None AI bonus, while before i only defeated the AI around 10% of the time...

Like i said before, i increased again the maintenace, but i'm thinking about increasing the speed of the starliners to allow faster Pop Transport and increasing again the Pop mass to allow 5M of pop for each starliner module, i hope that this don't degrade the AI too much...

thanks.

[ October 09, 2003, 11:26: Message edited by: Makinus ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Bigger is not always better in AIC. Smaller ships have substantial attack/defence bonuses. AI ships have extra bonuses too. It is quite possible your cruisers could not simply hit AI' frigates. I see it happens to mee too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

One solution is to use missiles. If it against the role-playing character of your race, use small ships as well ! Or invest heavily in scanners/ECM.

You don't use fighters. It certainly makes you vulnerable. Then use point-defence beams instead of point-defence cannons They are quite effective against fighters. Also, select "don't fire on fighters" in strategies. Normal guns are a waste against AIC fighters. Hope it helps.

I strongly advise against lowering maitenace cost. Ships have build-in maintenance reductions optimized for 100%. Lowering would destabilize game balance. Use "engeeniring section" on all your ships, research Chemistry II and build maintenence-reducing buildings !

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Makinus, this has merit and we have been playing with MASS numbers of 50, 100, 200 and 500 for some time with varied results. When the MASS is changed, the Settings files Pop Modifier numbers also have to reflect the change otherwise a fresh load of 60 Colonists (from a Mass=50 setting) for a new Colony with old MASS=1000 settings. This would mean that the Planet is good to go whit the one load, and in most areas of productivity. With this one load of 60 may far out gain the AI Players potential with se4 v1.84 AI Pop Transport protocols. There are a few more issues of coarse in lowering MASS in respects to global effects.

If AIC v4.0 new Human Player Option (3) {when released} --> does not answer the Pop Transfer issues in a way that satisfies the new AIC Players that prefer a more robust system, even to say with less micromanagements of Star Liners in general; then AIC may adopt a base MASS of 500 or less as an option for play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = =

Oleg, great follow up post. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 14:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Reducing Pop. mass is against the core value of the Proportions/AIC mods. It is about realism after all, right ?
Then be prepared to invest a fortune when moving New York City to the Mars for God sake ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif NYC, as I see it in Sex&City is very very vulnerable and gentile, BTW.

If game seems to be too dificult, I suggest to mod AI bonuses, but NOT human traits. Make AI weaker but keep a chalenge of the risky and difficult space colonisation for humans !

[ October 11, 2003, 14:46: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Agreed Oleg, I am hoping that AIC v4.0 new game play option (3) will appeal to some and not at all remove the core and base mass of 1000 structure that many of us enjoy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Currently, I enjoy non-connected games. Games give the REAL thrill of opening the warp point to the Unknowing. Something very close to the experience of "In the Death Ground" book by Whites and Weber. No any SE setups come even close IMNO. But, and I mean BUT, the xenophobic AIs, like Xi'Chung, have too much Stellar Manipulation research penalty. I like to play small AI bonuses but still, aggresive AIs do not expand even past 200 turns barrier. BORING, bugs must spead like an infection ! - just my IMHO, of course. I would like to see them get Stellar Manipulation a bit earlier. At least in bonused games, at least. We play it for purely masochistic experienes, not for a lazy win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 15:30: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Understood, and this is a hard one to call for the majarity though... However, I will make additional files with advanced SM option for the few Psycos and 2 Xenos Races http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, there is also something to be said; by NOT knowing who is in you current game and that there is always and at anytime; a chance that you may open your next Warp into a well prepared Psycho or Xenos Players Home System http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

In addition, never knowing whether a Violent Psycho Races may have a few Breathable Science and/or a large to hugh Planet Colonized that is full of Urban Centers to get the edge on Research to exceed the aprox 20 Year SM date http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 18:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would perfer finding the Psycos and not them finding me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif and the longer I have to prepair the better. I normally open my first warp in about 7 to 10 Years. I have seen the Eee, Tolytan and Praitorians, Cue Cappa and Terran even Abbi out and about in about 10 years, sooner for the first three http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 11, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

QB, the AI Research files will be tweaked a little with AIC 4.0 as Oleg suggested with respect to Open Warp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif = some of the races you mentioned will also warp a little sooner. In addition the Aggressive, Nuetrals,Impulsives and the some Violent races will at least get to 6-ly sooner, however this may happen in AIC v4.1 when we will redux most of the AI files to catch up to the new AIC Version 4 system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 15, 2003, 16:06: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Last night while conducting offensive operations against another empire I had some very strange things happen.

Several (8) small fleets with an average of (11) vessels each had just entered into Tactical Combat Operations (TCO) with the express purpose of liberating a planet.

A majority of the vessels were Frigates with a normal movement of (5) in TCO.

A full 75% of all vessels involved showed only a movement of (2)..(which is not the norm as stated above).

These vessels were not damaged..and had entered the sector with plenty of Supplies and Strategic Movement (consequently..these same vessels and fleets had conducted TCO a few turns earlier with no degredation of effectivness).

Also....even tho the Targeting % was showing a (99) to attack the planet...the vessels with reduced movement would not engage the planet (I have checked the strategies and could find nothing to preclude them from engaging..plus it was Tactical combat..so I had MY finger on the trigger..not the AI)

Has anyone else ran into this?

I was playing the AI Campaign..so I will post in that thread also.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Grand Deceiver

What race had frigates that moved only 2 and about what turn was it? Was it the AI or a ship that you made?

If they are moving normal but not glassing the planet then it may be this you are seeing. I think JLS has some of his AI to have CAPTURE PLANETS as opposed to optimal range as a main fleet strategy, with some of the small fleeted AIs just block-aiding the planet until the main assault force arives with the troops.
This may explain why his AI does Capture a lot of planets, I also hate when my home world gets block aided by the AI and just knowing that its main assault forces in only turns away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ October 18, 2003, 11:46: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

IMHO, AIC and Proportions give the most variety in ship/unit designs than any other SE mod. You can win with a horde of small ships or few large ships or even better of, a right mixture. There is no simple "new ship hull -> better ship hull" relation embedded in stock SE. The AIC' tactical variety is very interesting.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

BTW, JLS, any provisional date for 4.0+ ?
I'm bored playing 3.2 no-warp points games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You get that in Adamant Mod too, though to an even greater degree, as theer are no sized-based scale mounts at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

What Version of Proportions is AIC based on?

And... what is there in Proportions not present in AIC?

Also, do Proportions and AIC both include the racial points balance change? If not, how do you combine 2 mods?

-Cherry

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I think that JLS either already has his own balance changes to the traits and such in AIC, or is going to incorporate PvK's trait balances in the next Version of AIC (which should be out soon).

AIC has quite a bit of stuff that is not in Proportions. You'd have to get the mod yourself though, as there are so many it would take a while to find them all and list them.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

AIC has only 19 shipsets/races. Is it possible to add more (for example, from the TDM pack), or will that break the game? Or should I add new races for the pictures, but then copy the AI text files from existing AIC races? I'm a little confused.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

You shold copy the AI files from an existing race in AIC, renaming them appropriately. Make sure to use the name and description stuff from the AI_General.txt that came with the new race so that it will be named differently in-game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (though use the trait calls used by the AIC race you copied).

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right on Oleg - I also use missile frigates espeaclly very early in the game.

Most AIC BEAM TYPE weapons require Combat Sensors when that BEAM weapon is still at low level or proto-typed.
Most Temporal Weapons, Crystalline Shard, Phasers, Helborer and Null Space Weapons also need at least level 3 if not better Combat Sensors.

Remeber to set your figters to go after the AI Fighters first the Ships and bases in the Empires Stragy setup. (use the Armed Cockpit)
Also make "pure" Fighter Intercepters with just cannons and the armed Cockpit. (that just attack fighters, Seekers on others, Drones and Satillites.)

Have a few Anti-Ship types with just Torpedos and the un-armed Cockpit and set them not to attack fighters, Sats drones (Just Ships and Bases)

Also have Bombers that attack planets with good sheilding to attack JUST planets and NEVER put the Armed Cock pit on a bomber or a Torbedo Bomber.