Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

You don't think Prot 16 (vs. 12 for City Guard) is worthwhile? I find Heavy Infantry mix nicely with Elite Warriors, except for the mapmove.

-Max

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

Prot 16 is much better than 12 as a lot of weapons wielded by humans becomes pretty much worthless (unless you have huge fatigue that is). Spears for example, harm you almost every time when you have prot 12 and not to mention broad swords.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

I'm not saying they should be changed, just that I'm surprised to find the city guard to be better. I think the reason HI aren't doing very well for me is that I'm fighting against my mod nation Avernum and several of their units either deal relatively high damage or have armour piercing weapons.

I mostly go for heavier protection to avoid missile fire, but it didn't seem to be troubling my city guard that much.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

As they both have shields and as shields are extremely effective against missile fire (double parry) it doesn't surprise me the least. Of course, armor is also good when facing archers and the like but it is not so price worthy as shields.

I use City Guards as cheap and effective early expanders.
Here are some pros that make them good at this:

+ Shields for facing archers

+ Pretty good armor for facing milita, light infantry and other spear wielding units

+ Reasonable encumbrance for fighting high defense units like the above as they don't have very good attack skill and only low damage spear.

+ Moderate AP. They can get "first hit" if you script them right. They can also chase and backstab most routers (-4 def) and get valuable experience.

+ Moderate defense skill (12). Will have a pretty good chance to avoid getting hit by light infantry (att 10), and tribe warriors.

+ High map move (2) for armored unit. You can return back to your castle to gather reinforcements or for defense.

+ Fortress defense bonus. When you are done expanding they don't become useless as you can put them in your newly built castles for defense; they will also gather experience over time becoming more useful again.

+ Good morale for lizard unit. VERY good in the beginning when you don't have dominion over a province (+1 to your moral -1 to enemies) you want to conquer from independences (they get +1 to their morale as it is their home province).

Cons

- No helmets. Very prone to getting critical once fatigued so use a small screen of light infantry with shields to draw arrow fire away from them.

- No missile units for "softening up" advancing infantry for killing with their low damage spears.

Two ways to do this:

*Fire closest/no scripting put forward
+ Will fire into the enemy ranks
+ Will build up fatigue (very effective when facing heavily armored infantry) letting the City Guard get critical hits easily.
+ Will hold up pretty good against low attack low damage weapons as spears as they have 13 in defense.
+ Will draw some fire into the enemy rear from its own archers when in battle.

- Some of them will die of course but they are cheap so use many. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

*Forward and hold attack
+ Will get fired at by archers even when the city guards runs past them.
+ Will not get harmed in close combat.

- Will fire into the battle between the city guards and the advancing enemy with their javelins.

There are lots more to this of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Sorry for being somewhat off-topic.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

I do not think MA Man is weak, but if you look at their troops they can get at a castle far from their capital, it is not good either.

Man is average imho. But I think they get too big a penalty on troops away from their capital. Man IS weak when compared to Vanaheim and Arcos MA, and both of those nations pretty much get their full compliment of troops in all castles.

And of course Arcos. can tp their astrologists around the map, so even their mage that is capital only is not limited on a large map.

In short, Man's infantry sucks, and warden's are capital only. I do not think man is powerful enough to make them pay a premium for a very average infantry unit even if he is called elite.

And while you cannot only compare similar units among the different races, if the races you are comparing are close in power, than you can compare.

Man does get the longbow men, and air magic. Longbows are good, but many races have as good or better missile troops. And missile troops are plentiful to buy in dom III from indies. maybe not as good, but serviceable.

man gets knights and koas, but neither is sacred.

In the scheme of things, I would adjust man's so-called elite infantry upwards, as they did, and at least consider allowing the Daughters of Avalon and KOA's to be recruited at all castles.

Or conversely, limit vans and elephants of arcos and vanaheim to capital only. Though arcos could easily gate them, at least they would have to make that small effort. But the capital only penalty really does not effect a strong astral race like arcos., so my preference would be to relax the penalty on other races, rather than try and limit the astral races and Vanaheim.

And lest we lose sight, having fun is the key point. Why not try to let people use the troops they like best as often as they want to the extent it does not really unbalance the game. And since many games are played on small maps where the capital only penalty is marginal, i do not see the game balance being affected drastically.

Yes i realize that part of the penalty is to limit their production, more castles means more can be made per turn.

But I think any unbalancing is more pronounced with mages and sacred troops, than a costly nonsacred troop like the KOA, or the lord guardian and guardians of ulm. I see nothing unbalancing about allowing these nonsacred, non mages, being made at all castles.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

But Lord Guardians are only trained in the Keep of Ulm as they as they are the elite of the elite in Ulm. So it says in the description at least. You can change that of course but I would find it rather unthematic that you can recruit elite "lords" in every castle.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

What are better than longbows at every castle?

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

And when you add wind guide(and possibly flaming arrows from a pretender/indies/summons) those longbows become more than good.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

I hate longbows! Being on the receiving end that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Even with tower shield troops you lose men with every volley when the arrows are wind guided and fire enchanted (as Shovah wrote). The only relief is that those longbowmen don't have a lot of armor and most new players tend to ignore protecting them from counter archery/"crossbowery" and fliers. Oh, and you can always cast storm/rain/mist (if you're lucky Man will do it for you), that will keep you somewhat alive.

Re: Conceptual Balance (Discussion)
 

If you get blasted by Man's air mages you might not think that storm is so great. They also can buff their melee troops with a lot of different Nature spells.