Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Easy Slay, the Gorgon extermination specialists.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

So, where's that holiday schedule? http://www.dom3minions.com/~nav/bin/nav_chk.cgi still shows regular hosting time.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The schedule is supposed to kick in around midnight, server's time (PST) 12/23. I wouldn't worry, I am sure Gandalf will get to it in time.

Looks like war has broken out between ACGHHS and the Deva's. Overt war anyway.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I sent this in on the game forum (as I can't seem to post in the other forum) about a week ago, It is 2 PM Christmas eve and I am leaving for the Airport to pick up my wife and her folks. I will stick to the schedule I set down below as I never heard a word to the contrary.

As promised, I got the turn in on Weds, but I am not sure I can get this one in and Chris just has too much to do with us being a guy short.

C'mon guys, this game is NOT my only entertainment, or my whole life. It's Christmas and I have plans, end of story.

I will adhere to my promise below but can't promise any more than that. If you need a sub, I suggest you get one as no one has talked to me about it.

Have a Merry Christmas or whatever it is you celebrate in your own way.:)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

gb- you are right. that's maerlande's whole point. if just a couple people are gone over christmas, its ok to delay the game for everyone. just put a freaking 100h extension on of something. we don't need a ****ing poll to decide whether people are allowed to be gone during christmas

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

No but polls are the best way (in my opinion) and fairest of handling decisions that affect all players for a significant length of time and of deciding democratically the implementation method. There really is no use going back over this again and again. I already know how you feel on the subject my friend.

Apparently Gandalf had misplaced or did not get my e-mail on the poll results and the holiday hosting schedule. I see that he has taken care of it though and I have sent him another e-mail. Everything is cool. If we can get 1 or 2 turns in sometime between now and January 3rd, well that would be good. If not, well we will just have to deal with it. Again, have a good holiday.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Im old. And my mailboxs get ALOT of mail on alot of subjects. An email rolls off pretty fast. Its always best to send me a reminder ON the day you want a change. :)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Team roster change:

Agusti is replacing Maerlande at the helm of Kailasa on the Mysterios' team.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Team update:

Executor is reprising his role as team adviser for the Mysterios team.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

happy new year, all

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Happy new year.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Just a reminder that we are scheduled to resume our normal hosting schedule at or around 12:00 AM PST on Sunday 1/03 (midnight on Saturday). Currently there is one turn (Caelum) still oustanding for turn 30. Illuminated if you need more time let me or someone on your team know as soon as possible. The next turn may or may not host soon afterwards (depending upon where the clock was before we shut it down and how Gandalf is able to handle it).

I echo the previous poster's new year wishes and I wouldn't mind getting a fresh little debate going on the merits of diplomacy in team games and in FFA games as it applies to both. This is obviously something that probably won't be resolved anywhere, but I think ultimately it should probably be based on what all the players want in a particular game. Here's how I see the pro's and con's of allowing diplomacy in team and ffa games:

Cons:

1.Some argue that allowing diplomacy unbalances the game and can lead to ganging up on some teams/players.

2.Diplomacy can slow things down a bit, since ideally there would be no peace or lulls in the fighting due to alliances of some sort.

Pros:

1. Diplomacy is more realistic and closer to what one finds in the real world or even in a fantasy world such as Dom3, people are not machines after all and will do what they need to do.

2. Enforcing no diplomacy rules may be difficult, if two players or teams want to make an alliance, how is the admin to find out and enforce it if no one else finds out and the people involved don't tell?

3. Diplomacy can even the playing field between weaker/stronger teams/nations and also between less/more experienced teams/players and give the underdogs at least some hope.

4. Diplomacy is necessary because in reality, no game between humans can be perfectly balanced, there are just too many factors: skill level, game mechanics and national differences (as much as we try to do with mods and the like), leadership (for team games), experience, etc.

On the neutral front:

1. Since many victory conditions such as ours state that ultimately only one team/player can win, some say diplomacy may not really hurt since alliances are only supposed to be temporary in these types of games and therefore it does not matter.

Any opinions?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I will not be able to play dominions after january 7th. I will need a replacement substitute. Not sure what i should do in this situation.... i'll PM the alternates to start with i guess.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I'm sorry to hear that Immaculate. What a wonderful player you are/were. Are you leaving the Dom3 community permanently? What a loss for all of us. Yes, inform your captain so that he can find a substitute, PM the alternates and try to find a sub for yourself as well.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

thank you for your kind words. I have PMed the appropriate people. I will be unable to play MP dominions for about 3 months but should be back in the spring.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Sorry to hear that. Now that we're going to war!!! ;)

I hope you come back soon and good luck.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

ACGHHS - You've only got 12 hours left before the game hosts. Please make sure your turns are in on time.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Thanks for the heads up rdonj - very nice of you.
Squirrel has always been reliable, but I'll be keeping an eye on this as well...

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

WTF. I show the turn as having hosted, but I just checked a couple hours ago and it showed 11h remaining till hosting. It is very much not acceptable that the time remaining on Gandalf's page not be accurate.

I've been having some internet issues with uploading files all night, and a bunch of turns to look at, but I was about to look over my NaV turn one last time and submit it. Honestly, its only fair if the turn gets rolled back and forced-hosted after i get my turn in because it is very much not my fault that my turn wasn't in on time.

(I show this post 3.5h after Rdonj's. I show the server having hosted ~30min ago. 12-3 = 9h remaining, not hosted with me staling!)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Addendum to above post:
I have not looked at the new turn.

I have sent my 2h file to the team e-mail address, so there's an e-mail with a time-stamp that contains it as an attachment to verify time of 'submission'.

Sending it to nav@dom3minions.com is, at this point, without use since its not a valid turn until and unless the turn is rolled back. I am happy to fwd the archived 2h file from the team e-mail wherever gandalf would like it sent, and he can verify time it was sent if he so cares.

If there is no rollback, I'm done with this game. I will not play a game that cannot display or announce accurate hosting times. Its not that this stale sucks (though it does), its that it is totally unreasonable to play a game that advertises one schedule and operates on a different one. I don't want to deal with that. If the server tells me the game is going to host at X time (~8h from now), its really not ok for it to host at an earlier time.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yeah, I have the turn as well, with sauromatia having staled despite there still being plenty of time left on the clock when I last checked. 12 hours is generally not equal to 3, so there is clearly something going on here. This is a problem we need to get fixed.

I am against rollbacks on principle, but I can understand the frustration this causes. If we do a rollback, let's please keep it short and sweet. Us Devas are busy repelling hordes of invaders at the moment and we'd really like to get back to that.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Ha, we seem to be doing a rollback every 10 turns. Maybe we should schedule them regularly. :D

Generally, I am against any more rollbacks, especially for a single player, and especially given we've had two already. However something seems to be amiss this time with the server, I am investigating and will contact Gandalf.

The turn was NOT supposed to host till 08:00:00 AM PST on Tuesday, Jan 5th, those were my explicit instructions. The displayed timer last time I looked seemed to be on target as well. But I've got a fatherlnd file with a timestamp of Jan 4th, 10:44 PM and I show 2h files from everyone except Sauro. The last one to get in their turn was Pangaea at 10:43 PM. So something has occured.

We will likely know, hear something from Gandalf by tommorow morning/afternoon.

You all know I have always been in favor of honesty and fairness to all. I also expect honesty from all players. If a rollback is done, we must be consistent in our policy (last time we only allowed the three who were affected to resubmit).

If we do a rollback, ONLY SAURO will resubmit, and I expect and demand that Squirreloid, not revise his turn, not look at the new turn, but simply resend the old .2h file he should already have ready to go. If it discovered that Sauro has acted on any new information, I am empowered to deal with it appropriately. But I am sure that if done, Squirreloid will get it in quick and we will all move on. He will be honest. Right Squirreloid? :up:

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I still have not looked at the new turn (since its not real, there's no reason to).

My turn is timestamped by the e-mail sent to my team's e-mail account, which can be forwarded as appropriate.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, there ya go, it can be handled nice and easy if necessary. In fact, if Gandalf doesn't already have the old .2h file, it can be sent to him or me directly (my email is available on the team forums), without even bothering to put a few hours on the clock for him to do it (and thus avoiding reopening the old turn for submissions and preventing any sneaky business).

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I cannot find your e-mail on the team forums. As i'm still up anyway, mind PMing me either yours or gandalf's e-mail (whichever you'd prefer i used)?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

just to chime in here, I've commented on this twice before - that it has hosted hours earlier than it was supposed to.

I still want to say thanks to gandalf for hosting..

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

My apologies to Sauromatia. The game did indeed quckhost without receiving his turn.
All files are rolled back.

It actually happened due to one player sending in two different 2h files (16 files received of 16 needed so the stupid hosting script AI hosted). I will look into trying to add (yet another) check on player actions to the script. Now I understand why LLama has put so much time into his scripts.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

That's not quickhosting, that force hosting without any sanity checks on the inputs.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Ah. That would be me. I actually sent in three turn files for turn 31. I do this semi-frequently so there's no wonder that multiple turns have hosted early, if indeed this is the cause.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Quite true. But we are writing this as we go.
The incident would have been handled automatically by direct connect. I never appreciated how many checks and balances Johan as written into the direct-server.
Or it could have been caught by a pbem game where each turn is manually processed by someone.

But trying to write a script to cover everything is "fun". So far Ive had to add checks for
A) corrupted .2h files (badly attached)
B) enough .2h files
C) no .2h files from previous turn hosting
D) matching serials
E) .2h being sent in that doesnt match the present turn

And now apparently turn files being sent for other games than this one.
And there are still 3 other requests for checks which have turned out to be more complicated than they seem worth.

Gandalf Parker

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Oh! I thought you meant multiple files for the same game, not different ones. That I most assuredly did not do.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Nahh. That came up early on so I was already handling that. Players can send new turn files right up to the moment of hosting.

By the way, only quickhost is running now. Not forced timer as the webpage shows (another thing to work on today)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Checks and balances? That's basic programming! It would be utterly incompetent to assume that you should start hosting simply because you have the proper number of turn files without checking to make sure that all those turn files are both for every nation and that they aren't corrupted.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Heehee. Of COURSE it is. :) And manual processing of each hosting is probably best if you should ever decide to host a game yourself.

Care to let me in on what the next hangup will be before we receive one? That way I can start writing it in ahead of time.

Also, checks would not necessarily have fixed it anyway. What should be done with a check? How tyrranical should deleting a players sent file be? Whose responsibility is it to fix player errors? The server? the person running the game? the Team Captain? the player themself? If I were all of the above then of course things would probably simpler.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Since I don't know what your scripts do, then I can't be certain.

Checking to make sure that there are actually 16 unique .2h files in the directory rather than assuming that every new .2h file is unique would have done it in this case. You should also be checking that the inputed .2h filenames match the expected filenames. I'd also want to check the timestamps to ensure that each file is newer than the generation time of the last .trn file. This will deal with players that only resubmit their own turns, but won't deal with players who don't redo their turns from scratch. There's no way to test for that automatically. But sanity checking your inputs is basic and necessary for any program that is going to be used with input that you don't personally control.

Well, if the turn file isn't for the right game then it shouldn't be used. If it isn't from the right player then it shouldn't be used. This one is tricky, as some people have multiple email addresses. It's also not really possible to deal with deliberate cheating such as spoofing your email to match somebody else's. So you can usually assume that, barring malice, a turn file for a specific nation in an email that identifies which game it is for will be for that specific nation.

The more people you try to involve in the process the more complicated it gets. Players are responsible for playing their turns and submitting .2h files. In a rollback situation they are responsible for redoing turns from scratch by deleting old .2h files. The admin is responsible for fixing other errors.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

There were 16 unique files. One player sent a late_nation.2h then corrected it by sending their early_nation.2h which gave us 16 2h files in the game directory. Of course NOW I can see where it might have been a good idea to check for 16 early_*.2h files but Im trying to keep the script generic for future use.

The time stamps are considered in a way. Actually the 2h files are wiped clean by the post-host script each time. Players can send as many turns as they want to update their actions between hosting, the latest sent will always be used.

Exactly. At the moment the easiest thing is to check, and report. Thats done for the most part. Corrupted files, ascii attachments, bad serial numbers, quickhost check, time warning emails, and now apparently wrong game needs added. Im sure something else will pop up also. As far as the emails thing that also has shown itself. We have people using multiple emails, not to mention the team arrangments which means some turns come in as team OR from private email. So at the moment, checks only write to the report files or generate emails to specific static addresses (such as the game master)

Exactly. As an old internet server admin I tend to avoid being too much hand-holding (also referrred to as tyrranical) about users files and emails unless Im specifically asked to. This is not my game.

Im also forming a new opinion on pbem. I used to consider the benefit of pbem to be all on the server side. Direct connect is much easier for players, especially newbies. And it settles so many of these problems. The advantage was much less load on the server by not having to run continually. But now that so many checks are involved kicking off on each email received Im not so sure of that by the time every possibility is written in.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Squirrel, my e-mail and Gandalf's is being sent to you and your captain ASAP. You can either send it me or better yet Gandalf directly. As everyone is aware we shall know if any other "revised" turns were to have come in.

Let's get this done with quickly.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Then you aren't planning to bother fixing the bug even though you know that it exists? That it will almost certainly cause problems in the future? Why are you force hosting the game when you want to run it with the quickhost flag? That would have prevented the turn from being generated if the proper .2h files weren't there.

Only if you are so condescending that you assume that newbies aren't capable of emailing a .2h file and saving a .trn file while they are capable of typing in an IP address.

Why aren't you letting the game itself perform some of those checks instead of forcing it to ignore the built in error checking?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I will write it into the checks.
Actually now I notice that it was already in there. The problem would have appeared on the Turns_Check.txt available for everyone to view (the only check not listed there is the check for matching serials).

If you mean do I plan to delete files sent by players to Septimius game, then no. Not unless its requested. If it was my game I might but Im not completely sure how much hand holding I would want to do then either. Maybe if it was a newbies game.

Thats a really insightful question. Unfortunately the pbem version only has one hosting option. --host. There isnt actually a quickhost for pbem. Its kindof written in by us.

I try never to be condescending. But there do seem to be many more discussions involved and problems arise. In every game of first players thre is usually at least one that have to be told where to put their files, where to find their files to send, to check their spam lists for missing files, how to zip in some cases, how to attach, how to rollback. Some even end up changing their mail service due to THEIR server being too tyrranical about checking users emails and files then correcting them.

Plugging in two settings (Server and IP) still needs some explaining but I cant seem to make it be as involved as all that.

I would if I could. But the only way I can come up with for that would be the old way we played SingleAge games. Collect all the turn files, open the game in server mode, turn in the turns myself one at a time, host, then shut it down to mail out the turns.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Tollund, good discussion, lets keep this thread #1. Keep that postin goin! :D Can you believe we are approaching 1,000 posts? Though I don't think the "condescending" remark was called for with regard to the job Gandalf has been doing or his intent.

I have not instructed Gandalf to delete bad turns, generally since correct turns would overwrite these in many instances at least. Also, maybe because I don't handle the server side and frankly the issue of wrong age .2h files being sent has not been a problem so far. But there is the possibility of all sorts of crazy things players can send in. An oversight, perhaps. Condescendence, I don't think so.

Gandalf has implemented quite a few checks in fact already. The lessons learned will be applied to future games I am sure. I for one am excited quite frankly at the prospect of possibly being able to play Dom3 via both direct connect and PBEM in the same game, at the same time, in game 2, if all works out.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Actually, I found PBEM easier for me as a noob, that direct connect business is still a mystery to me. Never even tried it. But I can understand that there can be many more issues regarding noobs and PBEM games, if not we wouldn't need a Llamaserver FAQ or anything of that sort.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well there are always some available on my server. :)
http://www.dom3minions.com/HostedGames.htm
The games with AIs can even be played by just one human player.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, what do ya know. I tried it and was easy to connect and get going (the network tab starts with the dom3 server address already in there), perhaps even easier than moving files around and so forth with PBEM. All you need is a port number and a premade pretender. Wonder if for slower connections though, PBEM would be the way to go.

Well a marriage of these two types of connection and play methods would be excellent if we can pull it off. :up:

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

So this is a new turn that we can actually play?

I got screwed over again with the rehost - had an air jarl and a good event, now no.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yep. Basically its the same as playing solo.

About the same actually. The game still operates the same way. Its not doing any more talking to the server than with pbem. All the processing is still at your end until you hit end-turn, then it sends it. But the instant send and instant receive of files makes it perfect for blitz games where a few people want to play the whole game in one day.

New territory. I wouldnt mind some email conversations with other people who have admined Dom3 games about how that can best be accomplished. Especially if they also know linux.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well of misery, huh?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, we do have to *try* to keep up with you devas on gem production.

We know you guys are winning - but we *are* trying to make a game of it.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

My replacement subs have yet to respond. What should i do? I really don't want to set to AI.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Sure, we're winning on the graphs. But we're also winning on the hate, too :D And ACGHHS has much better research overall. I think we're pretty evenly matched at this point.

Of course, you guys are probably much closer to tartarian factories.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I got turn 32 again, could I get a resend?