Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

Any more feedback coming in for the lizzies?

The next update will focus on tweaks to get an early balance, giving the salamders their water shape, at least one blood spell for sotek priests,... and probably the 3rd generation slann as a summon. I don't think it will get a particularly different graphic, probably just a modified throne, more bling and a different colour. I'm thinking blue.

The 2nd gen slann are going to be 5 unique summons. Each had a different duty in shaping the world itself and this will be reflected in their abilities. In the simplest sense there might be one with very strong earth magic, one with water, one with air, one with fire and one with nature. But they'll get other stuff too - domsummoning sacred spawnings, different movement abilities (some mobile, some immobile), onebattlespells etc.

I'm already invisioning the havoc a stormflying onebattlespell-storm mapmove 10 uberslann could cause. Or an immobile F6 bugger that generates fire gems. Teehee.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I can't wait to see the second generation slann. They should be a sight to inspire terror in your opponent. Are you going to put them in different paths like with the sacred spawnings?

As far as feedback goes, on the one hand the lizards seem incredibly strong to me. They have a very solid early game with the quite decent temple guard, or the sneakily trample-resistant skink/kroxigor army, or even the saurus warrior army. Also cavalry and salamanders, while expensive, should not be underestimated. In the mid game they have all those happy sacred spawnings, and access to many powerful battlefield spells. By the late game, you'll probably have been clamming pretty good, you're an inherently powerful astral nation and can make giant communions to boost your slann to crazy levels of power to cast just about whatever you want in battle. You also have excellent forging abilities, and I think saurus oldbloods would make for a pretty decent chassis earlier in the game.

The only real weakness they have, I think, is slann equipment slotting (their incredible cost aside). If you want to cast higher level globals you'll probably have to empower a number of slann (at least until the 2nd generation becomes available to you), which is of course expensive. I completely agree with the logic about their lack of slots, as they're just too large and abnormally shaped to actually equip most of the forged items, and while I could see them being capable of using a single a hand-held booster one-handed ones basically don't exist, and you really don't need slann turning into SCs with shields and aoe weapons.

Most of this is theory-crafting though in honesty, I haven't played as Itza very much. I had a little game going a few days before the warhammerama game started and was pretty much just playing around to see what they could do and check out the sacred spawnings.

Edit: On second thought their very expensive forts are quite a drawback as well. The fort cost is very good at holding them back a bit early on. I would say this was another very good choice for balance as well as aesthetic purposes.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I forgot to thank rdonj for that feedback. I have many ideas for the lizards, though I'm quite surprised by the lack of response on the forums. I really thought they'd be a hit. They're rather pretty after all and have some unique qualities.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I'm contemplating trying to write a guide for them. I still haven't played them that much but I really want to. They have so many neat things they can do. I'll probably look into that after some of the other 5 million things I have to do today are out of the way.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I've played a few single player games with them and I've got to say they feel really powerful. With a W, N and E bless the temple guard sacreds just never die, I've very rarely found myself using any of the other summoned sacreds because they're not as durable or very situational. Obviously this would completely change in a multiplayer game, but I've no experience there. I was planning on waiting for you to complete the nation before I provided feedback, but I'll say that they are indeed very thematic and very beautifully drawn. I've enjoyed them very much so far.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

If I ever do write that guide, I hope to change your mind about that :) I agree that Itza feels pretty powerful, but not just for their temple guard. Actually in the Warhammerama game that's just finishing up, llamabeast's temple guard are more or less just high morale chaff atm, it's his massive slann-lead skink communions that hold the real power. Though I would be the first to say that his bless is definitely sub-optimal for fighting me.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

A beautifull mod, but is it a surprise ? No. Now we want Sombre 3d sprites !(?)

Can't remember any numbers actually, but It seems to me that I found the resource cost quite low for all the saurus chaps, who can easily crush any heavy infantry they encounter(cavalry is not safe either),magic weapons on everyone is really good too. I don't know if it is really overpowered, as their magery is all clumsy and hard to use (you clearly won't have support mages everywhere)(I play rather big maps).

All in all I need to restart a game and look at those nifty sacred summons again. It seems to me they were quite usefull. (a tool for each job)

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I think I'm going to pay particular attention to the balance of the temple guard. When I made them I was comparing Itza with Mictlan, due to their many similarities, and envisioned the Temple Guard as being on par with Jaguar Warriors in their overall awesomeness. The problem there is that Mictlanese troops are mostly rubbish, while Itza has an excellent range of troops and avoids many of the disadvantages of Mictlan to boot.

The sacred summons are also somewhat eclipsed by the Temple Guard, who benefit from a rather different bless (E9 actually works on them for instance and their durability favours regen and reinvig). So perhaps they just need a cost hike.

I doubt I will increase resource costs across the board. Itza are pretty much a sloth nation, since their armour and weaponry is largely either biological or naturally occuring.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I actually think the Temple Guard are a bit too strong. Not dramatically so, but just to the extent that I don't bother recruiting anything else any more (apart from the red skinks sometimes). Given the amazing range of troops that the Lizardmen have, that's quite a pity.

Re: Warhammer Nation: Lizardmen - v0.3 update
 

I think there are definitely some cases where the temple guard will be worse than other options, but that makes other choices like skinks (when facing heavy aoe battlemagic), salamanders (vs niefel for example) etc far too niche.

I am going to set them to mapmove 1, reflecting their overwhelming instinct to stay with the Slann/Temple. Then I'll look at their cost.

No matter what, lizards will clearly remain a bless nation, but I don't want a case where temple guard are all you build, that's for sure.