Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

kwok, can you add 'retroserries design' to the list of design types?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Greetings!

I'm re-working some of the AI's designs for the next mod update to go with this week's upcoming SE:V patch, so I'd appreciate some thoughts or comments on generally effective combat designs etc.

I've mirror this topic on the BM's SE.net forums as well:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-2529.html

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Not sure if this is what you mean, but are there races that build off of certain doctrines?

Example would be races that rely heavily on fighters and carrier tech.

Races that build vast armadas of fast, agile, smaller frigates and destroyers that swarm convential fleets.

Races that rely on slow, uber armored juggernauts with massive mount weapons but have fleets that employ PD and light weaponry escourts.

Races that research particular styles of weapons and then stick with that particular weapon (CSM, Torpedo, DUC, APB, Ion, ect.). Like the indivdiual raes in the Star Trek Mod that had their own racial weapons.

A sly race that is known through out the galaxy for their deployment of cloaked drone launchers.

An aggressive race that gains its research through capturing other vessels and then analyzing it.

Races bent on researching unconventional weapons such as planet and star destroyers.

Purely defensive style races that rely heavily on Warp Point Defense Bases and Defensive style ships.

Slaving races that build fleets simply to capture planets effectively with the races intact.

A jack of all trades race that knows how to balance all of the above with a good mix of everything to counter just about everything, but only just average at doing these tasks.

Do you know if the new patch is going to address the fact that some of the areas of the strategies can not be adjusted as of 1.33. If so I had some good ideas for fighter strategies and design that seemed to work great in the simulator prior to 1.33.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I think what needs to happen is the modifiers for 'wanting of a design' need to be exported to the race files. This would allow all sorts of custom AI's to be built (i.e. Borg, Zerg types).

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Kwok: I gave up on my mod because of the error I mentioned, and reverted back to your originally 1.05 version. I noticed that it even happens with your version though not nearly as good of a chance. I started a game with high computer players (is that 12 or 14... with yours...) Anyway after doing a comparison and making sure everyone started with max resources I ended my turn. Very next turn I did a comparison and saw that 2 of them had only 600 resource lost all research points etc just as it was doing with mine. (note I did an reinstall prior to this). Is it doing the same thing for everyone else? 2 outta 14 isn't taht noticable in the long run but after my mod tweaking your code it got to be over 50% of computer player auto suiciding like this. I will download latest version today and make sure (delete dir and everything to make sure I have a competely clean install, I've been doing everything in the mod dir like I'm suppossed to but who knows...) and then see if it still hapenns.

Oh forgot to mention, when I was doing this with mine I noticed it was somewhat random not set. Once the eee committed suicide the next game they didn't but some one else did in their place...

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Frigates make the best missle boats, because there aren't mounts for missiles and they're the fastest hull size. Early game, I use: bridge, life support, crew quaters, sensors, five engines, five armour, two plasma missiles. Can't beat 'em for damage output, and they outrange everything else. They'd be vunerable to fighters, but they AI doesn't use them too much at present. You can always add in a point defence version with only one missile, two point defence cannons and combat sensors.

Since you're using the quadrent mod, you need to make sure AI's keep a stock of cruisers or something around even if they have dreadnaughts and baseships, if they don't already.

No shields until shield regenerators, to compliment rather than replace armour.

No mixing direct fire weapons with missiles, because missiles work best from afar and you can't use direct fire weapons from all the way back there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif But you mentioned you were going to do that.

Is the AI going to be using troops?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I have started a new game with 1.06 and the 1.35 beta patch. So far, the AI is quite a challenge. Dramatically better than stock. Good thing I didn't give any AI bonus in game setup this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I have to agree that the designs with mixed missile/direct fire weapons are a mistake, as is using shields before they have reached the same level of effectiveness as armor.

Also, the AI needs to 'cleanup' more effectively after combat. My presence on a certain planet is disturbing a rival empire, and so it's under constant attack. After almost every battle, there is something 'left over' and sitting next to my planet. Supply ship, repair ship, etc. These should be sent home, not left sitting there like orphans. Sometimes I send some ships out to attack and destroy these logistics ships, but usually I'm too busy preparing for the next attack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

yeah I'm wondering if you shouldn't make shields a tad more powerfull Kwok, they need to be a bit less powerfull than armor at the same amount of reserch points though, since you don't have to repair them. duno, what do you others think? anyone worked out the reserch cost of the first level of shields, and what the equvelent armor level is for the same amount of reserch is?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Captain Kwok: I did some more reasearch, and can not only describe the issue better but can point to the exact part of your code that causes it, and how to easily recreate it, and even how to fix it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, and yes it still happens in 1.06 clean install.

Problem: After first turn, and possibly at other times during the game An AI player home planet and possibly other planets will scrap some or all facilties on said planet. I've only noticed it after first turn since it shows their starting points and stuff only deal with the homeworld and very easy to see the issue...

Cause: In the Script_AI_Construction.txt empire script file under the Remove_Uneeded_Items function is a call to check for and clear up room for a resupply depot and Space port. That area of code causes the problem, specifically not clearing last_colony_id. this still doesn't explain those 3/14 hitting this if routine but if fixed by below method it'll make them only scrap one facility instead of all. (they should all start with both facilities yet randomly, or at least I couldn't see a reason in how long I looked at it, the code falls through to the if anyway...)

Recreate: Simply change the homeworld starting facilites to not include a space port. 90% chance an AI will self-destruct as I call it.

Solution: clearing the last_colony_id right after the "if (found_item) then" routine or at start of loop.

Some Thoughts: This if it isn't just restricted to homeworld could majorally cripple the AI, and if I read the code correctly I assume it runs each turn to check all systems for said facilites? I hope this helps, if you have any questions feel free to ask http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

More detail (probaly too much):

Please ignore me if I'm way off or read the code wrong. You loop through each system as long as a person has one planet period. the first thing you do each loop is set found_space to false. Then if no owned planet is in that system it will remain false and go into next loop that deletes a facility. So... As many facilities as there are systems, minus the one they really have a colony in, and minus which system number they are in, are removed. I.E. their colony is in system 248 of a 250 system, they'd loose 2 facilities, since it got to 248 sets the last_colony_id then does two more systems setting found_space to false then next if checks this value and removes a facility for last_colony_id for the last two systems since no planet is found in system it doesn't change the id and thus last planet it checked gets a facility axed...

BTW out of curiousity how often does this part of script fire?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Can you tell me if the races that self-destructed on the first turn had the Natural Merchants trait?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

se5a:
I'm thinking that shields might need some help, particularly at the earlier levels.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I'm not really sure Kwok. I thought about that but at time was thinking they did and didn't. I.E. those that did had 100% chance of suicide but still another race would from time to time, at tleast that is what i was thinking but I can take another look tonight if you want (don't have game here, and don't have internet at home http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif )

though when I was playing my mod (slightly changed yours where I altered and made a different style of resupply depot that did half as good but had sensors on it, I didn't change much in the AI scripts at the point they were suiciding and nothing with siad file at all) I was getting more self destructs than not and I noticed that one guy self destructed one time in but not the next, so I'm thinking something else is going on also. I wish we could change mid-game who was NPC and who was PC so I could look at exactly what was going on.

I'll test it some more tonight and get back to on that tomorrow and see what I come up with, but for now just simply add that one line of code in either at beginning or end and that will be a major plug to the problem.

Of course you could just start a 14 player game take one turn without doing a thing and look to see who self-destructed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (their resource will drop to 600 and research to 0)

I just looked at the ai scripts and it seems 5/14 players have natural merchant as a choice so if only 3/14 were commiting suicide...

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

In my test AI games I haven't seen the self-destruct before, but it has been mentioned once or twice. The only way the code would get executed would be that the system would be listed as not having a spaceport or resupply depot. When I get home I will check the script and make the appropriate changes. Thanks for your work on this matter.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

You're welcome. I wonder why you haven't. Every 14 player game I start it happens to at least two players usually three. I have a clean 1.33 installed with your latest release...(I deleted dir after uninstall before reinstalling). Oh and I always play the largest amount of systems, so if my theory about the code issue is correct then number of system would make the issue more previlant.

I'll play with it some more without the fix so I can see results better and see if I can narrow down the reason it gets into the code when they do have both facilities, but at worst with that fix it only kills one facility on the planet rather than all of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Captain Kwok: OK it does seem to be only those that have Natural Merchants racial traits right now. I can't get it to happen for others (unless they don't have a resupply or spaceport of course). After adding the line I mentioned yesterday I found a way to fix the trait issue but I'm sure you know how but anyway:

1: Go into Script_AI_GlobalVariable.txt file and add:
bool_Race_Uses_Natural_Merchants: boolean := FALSE

2: Go into the main_script.txt files for those that have this trait(Cue Cappa, Phong, Terran) and add:
set bool_Race_Uses_Natural_Merchants := TRUE

3: Go into Script_AI_Construction.txt and go to the Remove_Uneeded_Items function and change:
if (lst_AI_Our_Spaceport_Systems.Get(index) = 0) or (lst_AI_Our_Resupply_Systems.Get(index) = 0) then
TO:
if ((lst_AI_Our_Spaceport_Systems.Get(index) = 0) and (not bool_Race_Uses_Natural_Merchants)) or (lst_AI_Our_Resupply_Systems.Get(index) = 0) then


BTW: Did you know JRaenar has 6000 racial points worth of traits in their file. Natural merchants is last but is ignored because of that.

I'll let you know if when I start remaking my mod if it starts doing strange things again, but I was editing a lot so might just of changed something with the race that I had die once then not between two games...

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Kwok probably I do not understand the script correctly but does in the AI State change script the following

"AI_STATE_DEFEND:
call Compute_Defend_Systems()
if (not Enemy_In_Territory_Or_Nearby()) then
set new_ai_state := AI_STATE_INFRASTRUCTURE
endif"

mean that the Ai will remain in the defend state as long as enemies are in or near the empire territories?
If so, it will probably never change to any other state (attack state) against a human player?
That would explain my observation that in the curent game (BM 1.05) the AI does not attack although he has 5x more ships than I do.

Second very strange finding is that the AI in this game has 109 fleets but absolutely no ships in any of these fleets!!

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Phalzyr:
I came to the same conclusion last night - similar fix except I just check to see if the race had the natural merchants ability, which will cover off the default AI that the player's ministers or neutrals would use as well.

Q:
There is a known bug in the mod with disbanding fleets that is probably responsible for that weird occurrence with fleets. I know IRM has some sort of workaround for this - I'll look into it.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Q:
In v1.05, the AI will likely be in defense state if enemies are in 2 or more systems. In that case though, there fleets should be attacking in those systems with enemies, so I think what has happened is that fleet bug is interfering. Larger attacks are given to fleets and if they have no ships, they have no strength, and therefore do not attack.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Great. I haven't looked into scripting AI and what functions exist much so figured you'd know a better way. sometime I'll have to look for a guide or such about it, unless I'm over looking something obvious that is included with the game...

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Thank you Kwok for the explanation.

In general I believe that the defense state is seldom beneficial for the AI if he faces a human player, as the human player always will select the weakest points of the defenses to attack. However counter attacks of the AI (even if quite random in its location) may cause problems to the human opponent.

One more thing I read in the scrips (1.05):

" // Our Mine Sweepers should join fleets if they have nothing better to do
if (not orders_given) then
set orders_given := Send_Ship_To_Join_Fleet(ship_id)
endif"

Don't you think that minesweepers should always join fleets with highest priority? A lonely minesweeper is doomed, while an attack fleet without minesweepers is easily stopped by mines.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Q:
There were changes made in the state script in v1.06 that added modifiers which push AIs with larger empires (ie higher score) into more aggressive action.

Another change in v1.06 was that Minesweepers are sent directly to fleets. I agree that it is more effective for AIs.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Great work Kwok!

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Not sure if this a issue or by design, but it deals with population migration. In our PBW 1.33 bm1.05. I have allied pop migrating to my planets. I don't mind this, but the treaties don't allow/specify migration. The population is coming from empires I do have treaties with, BUT we don't have migration treaties.

Will pop migrate on its own and if treaty specified will they migrate faster? or is this a Bug?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Captain Kwok: I look foward to you next version. Are you going to release the newer AI empire scripts also, for those of us that like to mod your mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Yeah, I can post updates to the scripts. Right now I have compiled since I started changing the ship design system - could be scary when I try tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

---

Romulus:
Did you ever obtain population from another player via trade etc?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Yes, but the population was a diferent type. I'm getting 3-4 types migrating. Want me to send you the game file and my password to look at it?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

CK, are you going to do anything with fighter design and strategies so that the AI uses a little more variety other than the usual fighter design and strategy. I know that there could be many different designs and strategies, but maybe just implementing two or three of the favorites.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I have 3 fighter designations so far - "Fighter" types armed with direct fire weapons; "Fighter Bomber" with Rocket Pods or Torpedoes, and "Kamikaze Fighters" with warheads. They'll follow Short, Maximum, and Kamikaze strategies respectively.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Hi Kwok...

Whens the next release coming on line....
Am waiting to start a new campaign....!!!

TA
Drew

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I'm hoping to have it ready for Monday afternoon. So far it's been a time-consuming update because it's required some of the design creation routine to be re-written and specific options set for each of the 55 design types. In addition, each race has had their weapon choices updated and their weapons research made more efficient. Lastly the default AI has been split into 3 categories: Aggressive, Defensive, and Moderate. Not a difficult change, but time consuming.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Sounds promising!

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Do you know anything about a bug that stops ships moving? perhaps fixed in the next mod version?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Hey Kwok, a how about updating the empire data files so to reflect the stock government choices, so you don't hav virtually every empire using 'tyranny'?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I don't think it has to do with the modifiers so much as it does with the roleplay aspect of "tyranny".

---

I haven't heard of any bug where ships are stopping. Can you elaborate?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

I am in a Balance mod game where every few turns, sometimes for a number of turns, ships in select systems refuse to move. The next turn they have the orders players give them but they havn't followed any of them. It is endemic to every empire in the game. We had hoped the latest patches would fix it but first new turn and it happens again. Lots of us are sending bug reports to Aaron. It may be endemic to SEV.

Edit: another odd thing I just witnessed. I was testing a new race and I suddenly owned a ship from another race I hadn't met. I thought perhaps one of my ships had been catapulted across the galaxy, but no, I gained one of their ships.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Kwok, any luck moving some of the modifiers for ship creation out to the race files?

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Simultaneous games are still quite buggy. I couldn't see what would interfere with movement other than something breaking in the turn mechanics.

---

No external data files yet. Although the way I've re-configured the design routine, it will be easier to implement.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Yeah.

Re: Balance Mod v1.06
 

Are we there yet??????

Re: Balance Mod
 

I was just about ready to post it last night when I caught a new error with the AI's fleeting of ships. I need to work out that first, but otherwise all the other changes seem to be working ok. I think the new AI designs will help out as there a bit more efficient in their use of space and make better choices for extra components.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Man Kwok, what do we pay you for?

Re: Balance Mod
 

Yeah! I want my money back.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Kwok will you now make the AI use stellar manipulation after MM seems to have enabled these orders?

Re: Balance Mod
 

I will at least implement warp point opening for v1.08 (to be released with the next SE:V patch). I think it will take quite a bit of time to set up scripts for the AI to use other stellar manips in a useful manner.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Any news about the release of 1.07?

Re: Balance Mod
 

I'll be posting it tonight for certain. It's been perpetually 95% done for the last week and a half, but there is this 5% of bugs/problems from the "release AI test game" to solve every time I want to post it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

Its that last few % thats always a *****, lol

Re: Balance Mod v1.07 Available!
 

As promised, v1.07 of the mod has been posted. It's mostly an AI update that focuses on adding new design types along with changes to the AI's design routine. There's also the addition of leaky intel and the usual fixes.

Download here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

Version 1.07 (31 May 2007)
--------------------------

1. Fixed - Error in requirements for Small Telekinetic Projector
2. Added - More default design types
3. Changed - Reduced the costs for most intel projects
4. Added - New design types
5. Changed - Small amount of organics returned for scrapping population
6. Changed - Increased starting shield strength for Shield Generators
7. Fixed - If AI players had Natural Merchants trait, they would self-destruct their empire
8. Error - Crystalline Torpedoes could be placed on the Inner Hull
9. Changed - All races start with level 1 in Smaller Weapons
10. Changed - Increased range and damage for Tachyon Projection Cannon
11. Changed - Increased range for Weapon Disrupter
12. Changed - Decreased damage for Ionic Dispersers
13. Changed - Empires now start with level 1 in Small Weapons
14. Changed - Reduced size and damage for Kamikaze Warhead
15. Fixed - Mines could not be fired at in tactical combat
16. Changed - Drones no longer seek to ram automatically
17. Fixed - Planetary Napalm did not store any ordnance
18. Changed - Increased starting damage resistance for Quantum Torpedoes
19. Changed - Increased speed and modified damage for Gamma Pulse Torpedoes
20. Changed - Small tweaks to population happiness modifiers
21. Added - New images for Small Supply Storage and Small Ordnance Storage
22. Added - Implemented Aggressive, Defensive, and Moderate scripts for default AI
23. Changed - Improved AI ship design and utilization of components
24. Changed - Improved AI fleet use, composition and supply
25. Changed - Updated weapon selections for each default race
26. Added - New AI design types
27. Updated - AI Scripts

Re: Balance Mod v1.07 Available!
 

leaky intel?

Re: Balance Mod v1.07 Available!
 

Is this a savegame breaker? Does it require a restart for all features?