|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
32 is what we're on....
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Yes, 32 is the correct turn.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
32 had to be "redone" so yes you would have gotten it twice. Be sure to use the latest one.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Do we reload the 'new' 32 and resend it in untouched or do we just do nothing?
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
The new 32 should be played as any normal turn. I.E., do the turn from scratch and send it in. Make sure to use the newest turn 32 or you will screw everything up and we'll have to do another rollback :P
Just to reiterate: 32 is a new turn! Treat it as such. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
The burden of responsibility for finding replacements is generally split between the player and the Captain, with the primary responsibility resting ultimately on the Captain (since the Captain is in charge of the team). As admin I assist in this with alternates at the very beginning of the game and I also try to assist during the game as best I can without interfering too much. Generally, setting a single player AI on a human team is to be avoided if possible. If a replacement cannot be found in the short term, other team members can receive and play your turn for you (although key violations may result) or worst case, it can be set AI, your fellow team members would then just need to cannibilize your territory as quickly as possible. We can also institute a delay if the other players are happy with it till a replacement is found. If the nation in question is small or not of much concern, your Captain may even opt for a few stales. I've sent a few PM's out and will continue to do what I can to assist teams as much as I am able. Let's all do what we can to help out Immaculate and get another player into the game. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Rdonj and Chris are correct on the current turn and the method for handling it. The last .trn file in your e-mail is the one that you should use. If anyone has a question about whether they are using the correct .trn file (if you've deleted it by mistake or something), please don't hesitate to contact Gandalf or myself and we will be happy to provide you another copy of the current turn for your nation.
Chris, I am aware of your reporting of an earlier possible incident. Last time you mentioned it of course, I could not confirm, and based upon my observations I didn't see the problem so I had to rely on Gandalf's opinion. This time however, I did notice an issue with server and Gandalf confirmed it. I don't want you thinking I didn't believe you or anything like that. :) |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I don't think AIing immaculate is really an option. If he goes AI his entire team might as well go AI with him. TNN is the strongest position on their team, and the only one with anything resembling decent research other than TC. Without TNN I don't see how they could even survive much less win this game.
If it becomes necessary to set someone on their team AI, I suggest that it be TC, as they seem to be in a somewhat dire position at the moment. If not TC, then any other nation on their team EXCEPT TNN or they are screwed. And that player can take over for immaculate. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Grudge, I'm curious as to your opinion. Which method of playing and connecting do you prefer? PBEM or direct connect. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
i am so sorry for this confusion.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I really feel that setting any team member to AI is a death knell for that team. Personally I'd rather the team captain cover the position until a replacement can be found.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Playing both nations? I suppose I can do that.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Fear the CD key error!
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
i sent a message to you algaenymph- didn't you get it? Stagger lee will adopt one of the positions on our team.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Hey folks! I sent my email to AlgaeNymph and to Septimus Severus.
I will monitor this thread in case there's a problem. I am a very new player and I'm looking forward to learning from all of you distinguished and accomplished players. And you too pyg - hello again! :) Good luck to Immaculate. And thanks in advance to Gandalf - this will be my first time using his server. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I got the turn for Tirnanog this turn. The admins have to set the player e-mail to Stagger Lee's. Stagger- you get to watch what your army is made up of... the battle that it shows this turn is a pretty good idea of the firepower you'll be throwing around (well, one arm of it anyway). Hope you enjoy. I'm going to PM you a little secret.
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
OUCH
Please dont judge my server by this game. :) PBEM (Play by EMail) is abit experimental for me. Most of the games on my server play more like solo games. http://www.dom3minions.com/HostedGames.htm Gandalf Parker |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Huh, the game hosted?
On separate note (and for the third time request) can we update the header page so the link for stales works? |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
God sept, you and your cheating. :P
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Chris, the staling link on our header page works and is accurate as far as I can tell and the last time I checked. The only thing is it says turn '0' all the time. I've asked Gandalf to see if he could get that number to update regularly, but otherwise the staling information is accurate as of the current turn. http://www.dom3minions.com/~nav/stats.txt Statistics for game 'NaV' turn 0 Arcoscephale played this turn Ermor is computer controlled Ulm played this turn Sauromatia played this turn T'ien Ch'i played this turn Mictlan played this turn Caelum played this turn Pangaea played this turn Tir na n'Og played this turn Fomoria played this turn Vanheim played this turn Helheim played this turn Niefelheim played this turn Kailasa played this turn Yomi played this turn Hinnom played this turn Lanka played this turn |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Oh, and welcome to the game stagger lee. I wish you well, though not too well ;)
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Whose interested in turn 0?
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Welcome Stagger. Team roster update: Stagger Lee will be replacing Immaculate as Tir na Nog for the Blesseds. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Hey, you forgot to mark c'tis/ermor as dead. :)
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
|
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I sent a substantial sum of gold to Mictlan which seems to have never arrived. This is rather unnerving.
Is Fomoria pirating our cash shipments, and his 'unexplained increase in wealth' is the result of his nefarious pillaging? Is the explanation rather more bizarre or simply benign? Regardless, its demonstrable that, given the buys made in my submitted turn, it does not account for my income during that turn. My submitted turn also ended with 0 gold as would be plainly evident by someone examining the 2h file. As messages cannot be reviewed (seriously, whose bright idea was that? Its absolutely moronic), I can't actually look at the messages to confirm the message was sent as advertised, but the cash is most assuredly missing. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Seriously though, rollbacks may cause oddities to happen that is the only explanation I can think of. The only possible remedy to such things is to implement further rollbacks which would doubtless compound the problems. Rather than getting mired in rollback after rollback or rolling back multiple turns, we should probably just press on and try to avoid them in the future. It was for your benefit, although is was not your fault that it was needed. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Sorry Sep, this isn't sufficient.
Not only did I not get money - we did not get magic items. Restating this - at least two magic items were sent, that did not get received by any of our team. We understand the problems that rollbacks cause but the cause of the rollback was not *us*. However, in the interests of causing the *Minimal* amount of disruption to the game, we are willing to submit our turns to melnorjr or gandalf. We are willing to cancel or change only the transfer orders (transfer of gold, magic items). We are willing to have him do the changes, to guarantee that that is the only thing that changes. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I have bug reported this. It appears there is a 20 message limit, after which all further messages disappear into the ether. This is not documented *anywhere* that I can find, and there is no warning that the 21st+ message will not be received.
Re:Chris's suggestion I am certainly willing to provide instructions supplemental to the manifest actions in my 2h file regarding sending of things to my teammates. The poor message interface makes this hard to correct without redoing the turn from scratch, unfortunately, but should a neutral party be willing to recreate my turn as previously done excepting the sending of some items, I will accomodate such a plan. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Quote:
I am willing to grant you guys this rollback, but seriously, this is just too much. I am not looking forward to having to redo this turn (it's already basically done, pending some possible alterations tomorrow that probably won't occur). And I am certain there are people with worse turns than me. At least last turn we all knew there was something screwy going on before anyone even took a look at their turn files. And let us make sure someone is willing to do your turn for you before we decide anything about a rollback. Also, let's make sure you didn't accidentally send the items to someone else. This can easily happen, and if it did there is certainly no reason to do a rollback. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I really hate rollbacks. I'm just waiting to see what my team is cheated out of getting this time. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
The 20 msg. thing is a known bug and certainly not a rollback issue. There was a pre-rollback turn, did the items/money arrive during that turn?
I suppose that it isn't in the documentation, and probably should be. Sometimes people abuse it. But the Vet on your team certainly should've known about it. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I don't usually get involved in all this as I am the least likely to come up with a solution (as I am computer challenged). And for the fact that I am on the team with Chris and Squirrel.
However, I spend as much time as anyone doing my turn , and to be honest with you I never realized the amount of Micro-management a team game would take (although I did help finish up one of these games as a sub). I am NOT accusing anyone of anything OR am I critiquing Gandolph's server, but I have played games with these guys and know that when something is 'forgotten' or just plain missed, they just grumble and go on. I am privy to the 'inter office mail' and trust me, they discussed EVERY possible reason why these things COULD have happened and was it their fault. I don't want to redo the Dang turn either, but these are not SMALL glitches, these are Major problems for individuals and as a team strategy. I don't think anyone has ever challenged my word when I give it in this game and I am the first to dismiss crying, and whining in a game. In this case though it seems warranted, and we need to scrutinize what the heck IS going on as I also don't have the time to keep messing with this every turn as I am in other games also. Just an opinion gentlemen from the peanut gallery, but if we are going to keep this game going....we need to address it NOW. Thank you:( |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
As to it being a known bug... Known to whom? Documented where? I looked through the Bug List that is maintained by Edi and did not see a single mention of it. A search for 'message limit' and 'messages limit' of the forums revealed no pertinent hits. In fact, given that I've seen 'overflowing your opponent's lab with sent items so he can't forge' listed as an exploit, which sort of implies you can send 50 items, I was rather surprised that this limit exists and had no reason to believe such a thing was so. There's even a post (from 2007) asking about reviewing messages that specifically states messages can be shown as 1-99 messages sent. 99 messages is a lot more than 20! That was the most relevant hit I generated on my forum searches, and it implies the exact opposite of what you're saying is a 'known bug'. Surely you can't say that a bug which doesn't occur in the bug list, and cannot be searched for reasonably on the forums, is something that is particularly 'known' to exist - either in general or to specific persons. At least in my experience, a known bug is both well-documented and a description of the bug is readily available, such as in a sticky. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
There's a limit of 20 outgoing and 20 incoming parcels, I believe. This isn't quite the same as messages. I've been making an effort to keep well away from the limit all game.
Point is, this isn't an error by the host or by the hosting machinery, it's an error *by the players* and we can't do rollbacks on that. This is one of the game's more severe and poorly understood quirks, but it's something you can and should plan around. If you failed to do so, tough. So, obviously, I vote against / object to / do not want a rollback. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
As with most fiery arguments, definitions are needed.
One of the 20 message limit is a sending limit. That is easily testable. Send 20 messages of just A and it will not let you send any more (be sure to delete them before hitting end-turn) The Max Message Limit is a misleading number since it involves everything you see in the Messages display such as events, death match, castings, slave collection, etc. That number is quite high. The maximum number of "player messages" between players is a separate limit and I dont remember what its set at. But its much below the max for the message display itself or the exploit for flooding would not be such a problem. The log records them as pmsg (there were 41 in the last hosting) (and most of our rollbacks have been player error) :) Player error is a pain for rollbacks. So is rolling back if the game itself does something screwy. But it isnt as big a problem as player manipulation. If it cant be verified that the player did something which the game ignored then it could be used to roll-back and get new random rolls on bad events or even battles. Im not saying this is the case. Im only pointing out that it can be bad precedent to rollback for things that cannot be verified as an error by the host IMHO. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
You know, when I posted that thread last week - the one about the rollback that screwed up so many things and was turning a fun newbie game into a miserable chore - some of you were kind enough to answer with sage advice and lent the benefit of your years of experience just to help me.
And now, you're reenacting a soul-sapping rollback here, one can only assume for my benefit alone! Thank you for showing a poor noob how it should be done! ;) |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I strongly doubt there would have been any cheating involved in the past turn (as squirreloid stated it was the turn before this one that was rolled back) especially since the only ones with access to all these files are myself, Gandalf, and Melnorjr. All four turns and the 2h files being sent to a single e-mail it is possible that a mistake was made by a player.
My turn, I did notice a slight oddity, but I can't be certain that I did not make a mistake and throw away something by mistake. My laboratory lost an item or two, but all my orders were carried out and I noticed no other odd behaviour. Despite this, though I think we should try to forge ahead, as Admin I've just got to keep things moving, grumbling or not. The game's important to me, but really I just love to play, but I am not really interested in haggling or squabbling over every single detail at the cost of risking everything else (and you guys know how much I loving debating) and winning is not paramount to me. Therefore, I strongly advise against another rollback right now and that we play the current turn out and see what happens next turn. If there is any major oddness that takes place next turn, well then, we can look into a rollback or other measure that might be taken if the majority agree. If this is not sufficient, well then you know we have a mechanism to handle this, it's called a poll (gotta love em). :) Depending upon the response to what I have said one can certainly be set up on our team forums. You guys let me know. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Then you admit that you *don't* know what the bug is, and the error is severe and poorly understood. And to date, neither you, nor the game administrator, nor Gandalf, nor any other team leader have displayed a consistent understanding of what the bug is. Second. We are playing a game, the rules of the game are published - in the rule book and in the errata. We play by the rules. When the game acts in manners that are not in accordance with those rules - then the game has been bugged. Just as if all of your casters suddenly became specters - or if recruits were no longer allowed. To say that you will vote against new turn submissions in one case is to say that you are against turn submissions in *all* cases. We are playing to decide this contest by the rules, not to have the contest decided by bug. Third. Roll backs are not to be taken lightly. Our team did not ask for a roll back on the turn when squirrels armies did not move. Think about that. His armies did not move. Thats a pretty big disadvantage -but we accepted it, noted it, and moved on. Therefore, if we ask for a roll back at this time, the issue must be more serious. Fourth. You believe that no rollback should be issued - as the vet should have known about it. To answer that point, I have two responses. A. No team is going to seriously disadvantage themselves by deliberatly putting themselves at a severe handicap. The fact that we did is pretty much prima facie evidence that we didn't know about it. B. Not only vets have to know about this bug. Players have to know also. There is no way for a vet to review a turn and know that the player has exceeded the message limit. Recapitulating: the game has been disturbed by a bug, which is acknowledged as severe and poorly understood. IT significantly affected the game. There is minimal to no downside to your team, or to the game as a whole in fixing it. I don't understand your objection. IF the point is secure a victory for your team, why don't we just concede so you can have your victory? If the point is to administer a contest of skill according to the rules as written -whats your objection? |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
A bug not agreed upon is not necessarily a bug not understood.
There are bug experts. Such as in the IRC group. Maybe one of them would be willing to view the turn files we received and verify that it seems to have happened. But unless they can point out something which might avoid it in the future, do you feel that you should roll back every time someone says something didnt happen with their turn? If its general to everyone then maybe it can be RPG'd as bad bureucracy. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
For the record, this rollback isn't going to be great for me. I'm going to lose a rather nice gold event, and given my scales its probably not going to happen again. I also won a combat that was by no means guaranteed, which would get re-rolled. Quote:
As to the second, would you like to review my .trn file and .2h file from last turn - i can provide a list of everything sent (which can be confirmed as not on commanders or in labs) and purchases made (which can be confirmed by reviewing recruitment queues) and cash remaining (Starting cash - purchases = money sent by necessity). You could then review messages received by Mictlan and Arco and determine that exactly 20 messages were received, and which items were not among them. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Squirrel, if it is not a bug or bug related to these rollbacks what exactly are you suggesting it is? A Server error? Cheating?
Team ACGHHS. I've stated my opinion/resolve that we not do another rollback right now (lest we cause further issues or get mired down). Let's see what happens next turn and if this behaviour occurs again. However, if you guys want and to be fair, Chris can send me a PM on behalf of your team I will open an offical poll on our team forum. That is the only way I know to decide this in the absence of confirmation by Gandalf of a specific server error. I am sorry guys but I am just the admin and don't handle server errors if this is one of them. I'm willing to eat my own issue just for peace and expediency sake. Come now, we've been through too much together. :D |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Wasn't Chrispedersen in Kingmaker? Or one of that series of all-age megagames? Every one of them had a rule to prevent this from happening. So anyone who was in any of those games (and this certainly includes the vet advisors if it doesn't include the vets) should know that there is an inbox limit.
There *should be* a rule in effect, in all large games, against trying to jam the inbox of an opposing player with crap (i.e., sending them 20 slave collars) to prevent them from moving items between allies. I just noticed that we don't have such a rule here - sending unsolicited items to members of an opposing team is an exploit and we should not allow it, and we should institute a rule against it. That said, it's a well known exploit among anyone who played in any of the megagames. The exact hows and whyfores are only known by a few people (I think Hadrian did a study?), but this game has a lot of undocumented quirks, incl. the way movement works when two armies try to attack one another, for example. I'm sorry if people don't know all the quirks to the game, but as a *matter of principle* we cannot have rollbacks for people who don't know the quirks. You're right that the quirks aren't well documented and it isn't fair that you weren't told about them. Suck it up. That said, best practice would be to post a poll on doing another rollback. I'm pretty sure the vote would be "no" but if you guys insist on this, I agree with Sept that we should post a poll. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
I should have known when the turn hosted so quickly it was too good to be true. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
I joined this game because I wanted to learn from some of the best players in the game. All are well respected, and amaze me with the info at their fingertips on any question I would want to ask.
As Stagger Lee said, we just went thru this in a somewhat noob game called D+G (David and Goliath)as we have a mixture of semi vets and semi noobs. We had to roll back twice as weird things were happening and finally got it right (one guy Lost a Capitol, got it back and lost it agian). There was no poll, argument, or anger. They all just wanted to know how to fix it right and get on with it...which we did and everyone seems happy as there has not been one complaint. I am disappointed that there is such a uproar over a Bug (or non-bug), and we have spent more time arguing over what we should do than it would take to roll the d*** thing back, tell everyone what the problem is and get on with it. Ya know, if you take 10 kids and give them a ball and leave them alone....they will chose sides and make their own rules that even out the playing field for both sides. I only say this because it seems that winning is more important than playing this game. And everybody is looking at everyone else like they are cheating or perhaps using tactics that are known to some but not others. Well, the roll backs didn't affect me in one way or the other, and I am OK with another rollback. Is it because I am on that team? I submit that you look at my 'Friends list' I have only asked 1 of those to be a friend. The rest have asked me as I NEVER..EVER break my word in a game, even if I have to sit there and just click a turn because I am hemmed in. I am disappointed that the people I admire most in this game don't have the sense those 10 kids have, and winning is more important than playing and perhaps teaching some of us how to be better. I resign from this game effective yesterday, not because of my team, and not because of all of your bickering. I resign because you guys have forgotten how to make rules that even the playing field for all those 10 kids. If getting this good in this game makes me like this, then I will continue to ask my friends the questions i need to ask and stay with the semi noobs. Thank you gentlemen for the lesson and good luck to all of you:sick: |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Personally I play mostly solo. On 3 different servers. I dont think there is a single long-running game that doesnt show some quirk. Even ones that crash the game during hosting (knock on virtual wood).
There is apparently some advantage to only playing blitzes for some people. The game ends with no quirks.. As for people who wish to leave I have no problem with that. I tend to think to myself how interesting it will be when they start a game and manage it. :) |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
You have to be making a conscious decision to misrepresent what the argument is about. This isn't about sending 50+ items to an enemy, and having a policy to prevent that. In a single player game it is no longer even possible (apparently) to guarantee over filling an opponents box. As soon as you click on an item to send to a team member, (in excess of 20) the item vanishes, and even deleting the messages will not return it to you. This is about sending 23 or 25 or 27 items, gems, or text messages, and having the items and gems *disappear*. So for example if you send 5 types of gems to team member A, 2 items, slaves, and a text message, and slaves, 4 types of gems, 2 messages, and 7 items to team member b ---->items go away<----- And no, frankly, after hearing you moan about luck events we're not just going to suck it up. Practise what you preach. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
I would class this as a severe gameplay bug. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
It does seem to allow you to make more messages beyond the limit.
The only warning is that the counter on that menu stops at 20 without advancing when you make messages above that. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Quote:
Thats really better phrased as: It really does seem be a bug. It does delete all items, messages, and slaves sent in excess of 20. |
Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
Its there on the screen when you make the messages. When you send a message it says "1 message sent". It will say that up to 20. On the 21st message it wont increment saying it sent the message. Go ahead and test it now (then delete all messages before accidentally hitting end)
I agree that isnt very clear but Im not sure if it would be best to call it a bug if you want to post about it in the stickies. It would be safest to call it a wishlist item and request that Johan have it not delete items that dont get delivered. |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:30 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.