Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think it's so clear cut. Nobody seems to dispute that Pythium and Acroscephale are among the best nations, but I for one don't think they're so much better than the middle of the pack factions. The bottom tier factions on the other hand really are pretty bad.

IMHO multiplayer games are much less susceptible to inbalance, as players tend to adjust their diplomacy to gang up on perceived leaders. For example, I've done just fine against competent players using Pangaea in Dom 1, even despite a weak starting location.

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

About the more demons -items... I think that new spells should be added for lower-level demons, always a level higher than the main ritual, which give one/two more demons per casting and cost more. I'm not sure but they might need more magic requirements too. An example for this:

Get Some Devils
fire-2, blood-3
Blood 4
Summons 2 devils.

Another way would be higher level mages summoning more devils. That is, the rituals we have now would summon 1+ devil(s), and with a mage with blood-4 you would get three devils. We would already ahve the items needed...
Because of the quite abusing pretenders one could make (research level 3 to get the effect of level 9 spell!) maybe these should be national summons. The Devil-variety for Abysia, Frost Fiend -one for Jotunheim, Storm Demons for Vanheim (even if the Jarls still start with blood-1). And maybe Dark vines- summoning for Pangaea? I'm not usre about this, though... The nations would have to START with those spells to get these spells.

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in dom2 shows a reverse tendency. The bind serpent fiend now cost only 5 slaves, but summon only one demon. As the spell was mostly of interest in dom1 because it allowed you to get 3 units per cast, one can say that in dom2 it has been somehow crippled.

If serpent fiend are deemed more powerful now (death poison), then the cost should have been raised from 8 to 12 eg, but the 3 units per cast should have remained, as this was a distinct feature of this spell compared to say fiend of darkness.

another one bite the dust...

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see what you mean by "inability to get a high enough dominion to produce serious numbers". Isn't holy troop production determined by your god's dominion strength (adjusted by number of temples)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats right. The problem is if you are building say 5-7 sun warriors a turn and losing 1-3 the build up is prettty slow. As conflict grows you will lose more but your ability to build them will only ever rise a few beyond its starting level. Relatively easy to kill sacred troops that you can only build at your capitol are difficult to build up large numbers of.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like your idea alot Chris. Adding in items that improve spells is very in keeping with Illwinters approach and adds to the flavour. Requiring you to get construction for items makes it harder to abuse multiple devil summoning by delaying it while simply increasing the amount of devils could be too powerful if you start with the spell.

cheers

Keir

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO multiplayer games are much less susceptible to inbalance, as players tend to adjust their diplomacy to gang up on perceived leaders.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it depends very much on game environment. In an alliances allowed game of mixed experiance/skill you can win with pretty much any race played well as the enormous imbalences in game setup and diplomacy provide game tipping opportunities. No diplomacy games with everyone of a similar fairly high level of experiance/skill on the other hand is much less forgiving of weakness.

In full diplomacy games I find people are as keen to be friends with the races doing well as they are at trying to bring them down. Many players are quite happy to ally in such a way that they have little chance for victory but could well come 2nd or 3rd on the winning team. If on the other hand they take on the monster they could be crushed merclessly. Diplomacy is what decides it and diplomacising from a position of power is very effective if done well.

Cheers

Keir

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

I have only played three nations, so keep that in mind.

Why do people think Pythium is overpowered? The javelins look good on paper, but mine miss a ton or do no damage. Plus they usually only get 2 throws off, if that, before someone locks them up in melee. And, as straight melee troops they seem crappy compared to Ulm and Jotunheim, the other nations I have played with.

Along the same lines, what is the general concensus for which nations are top of the heap, middle of the pack, and bottom of the barrel in terms of power?

Thanks
olaf

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What makes Pythium strong isn't its army - which is only average. It's the mages. Communion, communion and more communion makes every mage fight at 2-3 levels above his actual power - and they're among the most powerful in the game to start with.

It may be that part of their reputation is still based on Dom I where air magic and combat summons (and especially Air Elementals) were too powerful compared to other things you could do with magic. Pythium was very well set up to take advantage of mass Air Elemental summoning. Now that this costs gems it is something to be used sparingly (although still very effective), so Pythium has to put some actual troops in the field now and risk having them get within reach of an enemy's weapons.

But they still have the cheapest researcher in the game (80 gold sacred), the cheapest communion slave in the game, one of the most powerful priests and mages in the game, strong Astral magic (you don't Magic Duel them, they Magic Duel you), good regular troops and no particular weaknesses. (Their cavalry is cold blooded but they don't rely on it - and it's also poisonous and the serpents keep fighting after their rider is killed.) Oh, and Hydras, too.

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

Don't forget the gladiators. Not something used a lot, but they can make a big difference in some situations. Also, the Principe are great.

Yes, Ulmish troops have more armor, and giants are tough. But Ulmish troops are slow, have weak morale, and cost loads of resources --> slow to produce. Giants are expensive both in resources and gold, and have supply problems & increased vulnerability to spells like curse, blindness, etc.

Principe have strat move 2, good armor + tower shield, javelins, no moral problems since you got standards and good priests. Very cost effective, in both resources and gold. What's not to like?

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man Bards 75 Gold, Marignon Initiates 60 Gold,... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: "New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general
 

They are not sacred.

Sacred is 1/2 the upkeep cost.

A Marginon Initiate has 4 Gold Upkeep.

A Pythium has 2 1/2 upkeep. Over the course of the game (where you are churning them out and keeping them around) they are overall cheaper.