Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the Summoned Creature Quick Reference (SCQR).

A shorter Version is that the only summons that cost upkeep are both kinds of trolls, black hawks, and some of the things you get with crossbreeding.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you're just kidding or ?
what's so special with trolls / sea trolls ?
only special thing is the 1 water gem / turn via the sea troll king . if they are upkeepfree perhaps this should be altered.
but otherwise ?
for 45water/earthgems you get 15 trolls + 1 king . the trolls themselves are not very strong ihmo .
for 30 death you get 20 wights e.g. which are far stronger .
the kings are nice but they can't summon allies and i think aren't too good sc's either so all thems pretty ok to me . a airqueen e.g. which could summon allies 10 turns should easily beat a troll king with his 15 trolls .

and best thing it would give water magic some amphibian summons . i always read ppl complaining water magic is too weak . upkeepfree sea trolls would enchance it quite ihmo .
but i can't see why a troll king with his 15 trolls is better than e.g. 20 wights + 1 bane lord which has comparable costs : 40 death compared to 45 earth/water

Re: upkeep
 

You would know better than I.

Re: upkeep
 

The Sea Troll King is usually good during a game... sometimes he becomes my prophet too.

The regular Troll King I rarely summon myself... since they can flee because of morale and have an upkeep of 4. The 15 trolls is 60 upkeep plus the upkeep of the king is enough to buy a temple after 3 turns.

With almost every unit I summon or purchase... its important to me that as many of them survive as long as possible.


==========

I also found Zen creature reference guide... double thanks for info.

[ July 13, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: upkeep
 

Boron: Conjuration 9 is HIGH. At that level summons are meant to be very cost-effective, worth every gem you use. Wights are. (Sea) Trolls are nice mid-game, and might be the one thing that forces you to defend instead of researching, or that kills you before you get access to Wights. Also, if you have the right mages and want to use them for summoning instead of researching, you can summon one trolls for one gem. With, say, 10 national mages summoning trolls for three turns you get 30 trolls for 30 gems. It is slower, but very cost-efficient in gems, although less so in mage time. All those mages could be doing something else, like forging, fighting or researching, or searching for sites.

Besides, recruiting trolls for 0gp/piece would become boring after a while, don't you think? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the site where you can recruit trolls should be removed or modified of course . i didn't mention it because i thought it is clear .

ok if you summon 1 troll for 1 gem it is costwise cheaper . but you could instead summon vine ogres. the cost is 1 gem too , with items / special summoners you can get even more .
a ivy crown costs only 5 nature gems and you already get 2 vine ogres / summon .
the vine ogres don't have regeneration but are mindless so they never rout . that makes them ihmo an as useful "shield" as ordinary trolls.

although i don't use them much myself contact draconians is a good comparable spell too :
like trolls you get 15 draconians +1 chief.
the chief is no mage but can summon further draconians. but they are upkeepfree .

worth a test would be to give the troll king summon allies ability too and reduce the gotten trolls to 10 but make them upkeepfree .
trolls are the only summons which you can't summon endlessly if you have enough gems .
this makes them clearly inferior to all other summons . and they don't have such great abilities which justify paying upkeep .

Re: upkeep
 

I'm not sure why the developers decided to have black hawks cost an upkeep.... they want/need money the same as great lions, wolves and other animals. Perhaps they just don't like birds.

Re: upkeep
 

Good question. I wondered that too, but I was also wondering why Black Hawks and similar common animals don't have stealth. Seems like they should have it, by virtue of most animals not being magical minions...

PvK

Re: upkeep
 

Dont birds get a patrol bonus?

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, wolves get it because they're wolves. They tend to be everywhere and nobody pays too much attention to them.

Bears, lions, tigers, and elephants, on the other hand, people notice when they start nosing around!

And Black Hawks make people point at the HUGE BIRD flying overhead.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They don't have a specially added patrol bonus, but they do receive a bonus when patrolling by virtue of being fliers.