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-   -   obat28 Netherlands (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=24381)

Jaws43 June 25th, 2005 06:22 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
PlasmaKrab said:
Quote:
TheDesertFox said:
are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.

At least for that I can trust the little info I have.

The main batch of Dutch Leo2 (445, of which 278 from Krauss-Maffei and 167 from MaK) has been delivered between 1982 and 1986.
They were termed Leopard 1 NL, am I right? I am not sure of any mention of a 2Ax version.
Anyway, they were Leopard 2A1 with some minor differences, like domestic AAMG (Mag58), smokepots, radio and pilot's vision blocks.

I have no info about when or how they were brought to A4 standard.
Anyway the first batch of German A4 in 1985 had only better FC with digital calculator, only later came better armor (batch 6, 1988-1989)

Cheers guys

Plasma
Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.

Jaws43 June 25th, 2005 06:26 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
TheDesertFox said:
Quote:
Jaws43 said:
Leopard 2A4 start serving at 1 July 1983 at 41 and 43 tank battalion.At 1 january 1984 at 103 armoured recon batalion.
Jaws,

are you sure it wasn´t the 2A1 which was introduced 83 ? I´m asking because the fourth batch build by MAK and Krauss-Maffei between Dec 85 - March 78 were the first 2A4s (370 vehicles). All vehicles build before 85 were 2A1s and 2A3s and were later retrofitted to 2A4 standards.

BTW: this retrofitting programm lasted until the mid 90s when it was finally complete. I was in Castle-Martin, Wales (battle range - life firing 2A4s) in 91 and 95 were we met some dutch guys who were just making themselves comfortable with the "new" 2A4 hardware. I´m a former german Leo2 guy btw.

If you can dig deeper into this issue and find out when exactly 2A1s first appeared in the dutch army and when they were replaced by 2A4s it will really be appreciated.

Quote:
Jaws43 said:
At this moment in the orbat the Leopard started serving since 1995??
Certainly this needs to be looked at.

Thanks for your informative post.

cheers

Helge
Thanks. About Leopard 2 A4 see post above

PlasmaKrab June 25th, 2005 06:40 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
Jaws43 said:
Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.
Leopard2A4A1 NL?

You mean upgraded once in 1985-87 along with the first German A4 batch, then once again in 1989-90 to A4A1?

I hadn't seen this AxAy thing since, well, Leo1!

Anyway, the last Leo2NL were delivered in 1986. So, upgrading them right away between 85 and 87?

Well, since you rode the very beast I won't question you too much on that. Probably the Dutch army launched some retrofit program on the way, to prepare for the A5s which, at the time, must have been expected quite faster than how they really came, am I right?

Now to determine what was this upgrade exactly.
Maybe that ahs something to do with the 2 Leo2a4 batch I was talking about, one with TC, the other with armour?

Just wondering...

Jaws43 June 25th, 2005 07:17 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
PlasmaKrab said:
Quote:
Jaws43 said:
Indeed it was the Leopard 2 NL. I know we got a update in 1989 or 1990.. I was Platoon commander at that time from a Recce platoon. I thought it was the Leopard 2 A4A1 (NL) The A4 must be updated between 1985 and 1987.. in that period I had no function on a Leopard 2.
Leopard2A4A1 NL?

You mean upgraded once in 1985-87 along with the first German A4 batch, then once again in 1989-90 to A4A1?

I hadn't seen this AxAy thing since, well, Leo1!

Anyway, the last Leo2NL were delivered in 1986. So, upgrading them right away between 85 and 87?

Well, since you rode the very beast I won't question you too much on that. Probably the Dutch army launched some retrofit program on the way, to prepare for the A5s which, at the time, must have been expected quite faster than how they really came, am I right?

Now to determine what was this upgrade exactly.
Maybe that ahs something to do with the 2 Leo2a4 batch I was talking about, one with TC, the other with armour?

Just wondering...
There were some explosion suppress system placed but taken out and would be implemented in case of war. So there were other things.

It is not a question for me who is right or wrong but more how can we update the Dutch OOB. At this moment it is a disaster when I'm talking about recce units (and since I’m a recce man).

The fact that I couldn't use the Leopard 2 A4 only in 1995 triggered me to write this post. I noticed this in the last version but hoped it would be fixed in this one.

To be honest when the updates came it didn’t interest me because I only wanted to exercise with that thing in the real world and not in a simulation. But when getting older.. you must except to let it loose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

narwan June 26th, 2005 12:48 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Jaws:

I have a question you might know the answer to regarding the dutch OOB. In it (from the 80's) the dutch mechanized infantry companies have platoons consisting of only 2 infantry squads, with 2 ATGM's and 4 YPR's. My info (which is a bit flimsy as of yet) shows them to have 3 infantry squads per platoon however with 1 or 2 ATGM's (differed per company although I don't know on what basis) and 4 YPR's. Can you confirm either the current version or what my info says?

Narwan

Jaws43 June 26th, 2005 05:00 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
Jaws43 said:
Oh I forgot,


A Squadron from
1995 until 2006,
3x recce platoon,
1x infantry platoon of 4x YPR as infantry units

From 2006 until...
3x recce platoon fenneck,
1x MRAT platoon fenneck
MRAT platoon consist of 2 sections of 2 vehicles (total of 4 thus)

Jaws43 June 26th, 2005 05:05 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
narwan said:
Jaws:

I have a question you might know the answer to regarding the dutch OOB. In it (from the 80's) the dutch mechanized infantry companies have platoons consisting of only 2 infantry squads, with 2 ATGM's and 4 YPR's. My info (which is a bit flimsy as of yet) shows them to have 3 infantry squads per platoon however with 1 or 2 ATGM's (differed per company although I don't know on what basis) and 4 YPR's. Can you confirm either the current version or what my info says?

Narwan
We had 4 YPR 765 PRI with 4 squads in a platoon and 3 platoons in a company. Each company had a support of 4 YPR 765 PRAT (TOW II) and 4 120 MM mortar drawn by 4 YPR 765 CO. It could be mixed for task but was mostly not at platoon level.

narwan June 26th, 2005 05:47 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.

Jaws43 June 26th, 2005 06:36 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Quote:
narwan said:
From what year on was that company configuration? An how many ATGM'S in the platoon?

I recall that, until the early 90's at least, the PRAT's used to be combined in a company attached to battallions and that integral artilllery support was 2 sp mortars on company level and more on battallion/brigade level.

In any case it's quite different from what is available in the game as formations.
About the ATGM .. we had two dragons in a infantry platoon. About mortars and Prats.. we had a support company at battalion level with those mid '90, but was reorganized to support units at company level except for the mortar platoon. So every compgny had and have at the moment his only PRAT platoon. We reorganized so much lately I can get up the pace only for cavalry units. I can do research of course but my intent was the Dutch Cavalry OOB. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

narwan June 26th, 2005 07:41 PM
Re: obat28 Netherlands
 
Working through the whole OB for a nation is a big task indeed. Maybe we can divide the task somewhat?

My problem is a lack of proper resources for accurate and reliable data on dutch army organisation and date's for introduction of new and discarding of old equipment. If you could point me to some good material I'll see what I can do (I'm thinking mech infantry units from 70's to 90's as a first 'objective'). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


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