Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Actually, this isn't low protection: It's Early Age, where armor is generally less strong - and quite some troops have to go without, even.

Note - there are no crossbows or longbows as well, therefore vulnerability to archers is limited.

You may have a point here, but lets compare that to the blood summons:
lowly Imps have MR13
Demon Knights have MR15
Devils, Frost Finds have MR17


Not all nations are created equal.
Not every nation must have sacred troops to make a (plain) bless strategy viable. On the other hand, a simple N4 bless is tremendous useful with the Dai-Oni. Maybe add E4 to help with their encumbrance problem.

What are the buffs you think they need? A N4E4 bless and a fire shield will make them quite useful even in the early game IMHO, and isn't hard to get at all. And what do you mean by "producing in significant numbers" .. being captiol-only and costing 500g per units, you're not going to hire dozends of them anyway during the first 30 turns anyway.

There's no heavy infantry in the Early Age. At least, it shouldn't. I'm pretty sure the prot-15 indies do show up sometimes, but that's a bug I guess. According to the manual, EA 'heavy inf' is the prot-10 spearwielding type. Most troops are in the prot6-9 range. Considering this, the bandits and even the prot-6 Oni don't look that bad.

The indie tribe archers are just too good (better than any national archers) and hopefully will get nerfed or made more expensive in a future patch.
And Yomi has 2 types of archers: The bandits are quite ressource-intensive, but among the best archers in the EA.

Yomi starts in mountainious area anyway. No use for a move-2 human priest, at least without mountain survival. Then the Demon Priests are only 80% as expensive, have 1 lower enc and 1 more MR than indie priests. And they have a 10% chance to get 1 magic level and become ultra-cheap researchers/forgers. And if that's not enough incentive to buy them - buy indie priests.

Kappa - castable (only by Nushi, but useless anyway)
Karasu T. - NOT castable (to mage-time intensive for pretender)
Konoha Ts. - castable (sorcerer)
Dai Tengu - castable (seldomly, 1:10 Dai-Oni, pretty expensive)

.. all tengu can fly during storms, AFAIK, .. so much for the archer problem ..

Ghost General - castable (Dai-Oni, surely worth it)
A.o.Tigers - castable (Nushi, animals...)
Nushi - .. needs pretender, but is worth it as it opens up 'nature' and 'water'.

And concerning the 'general summons' .. I think Yomi is not meant to have all those available, unless you spend the design points to make them available via your pretender. Which ones are you missing in particular - Air, Nature, Death, Earth and Water ARE accessible to Yomi (slim chance on Air, I must admit). If you want Fire, you'll have to use your pretender.

Mainly, I have come to the conclusion that you're looking at Yomi from a skewed MP perspective:
You seem to be looking through Yomis units list and comparing it to the list of 'basic strategies' - to find that a good part of them will not work (easily) with Yomi.
Be more creative - not all nations are created equal. Not every nation must have the full range of pretender-build options. Not every nation must work with the F9W9-nobrainer-bless.

But lemme see what you've found for your:

Actually, most stats are slightly inferior to the Niefel, apart from Prot (at the price of higher enc) and Att (mostly from fire magic). Especially 'Prec 9' and the high encumbrance make Dai-Oni unsuitable as spellcasters unless you slap a lighter armor on them. Again, a 'possible' strength that is not easy to use - other than buying a Niefel Jarl and set him to 'attack nearest'. Maybe a price reduction would be in order?

As I said - is everyone obliged to go with a high bless strategy? Several low level blesses work way better on the Dai-Oni and have the added advantage to open up more magical possiblities for/with the pretender.


Again - how many buffs do you think they would need? Fire shield and some low-level blesses can do the trick quite nicely, later then add Soul Vortex and some (cheap) items and everything seems ok to me.


And I think they perhaps simply need to be played slightly different to be competitive. Maybe by someone who's a stronger player than me, btw. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Bloods summons have 13,15,17. Why not use that for that Oni as well? Or why not use 17 or 18 for all Oni, at least in ghost form? Why should a small demons ghost be easier to banish than a big ones?
On the other hand, +4 is way to much - Dai Oni only have 18, and some pretenders do not have more to start with.


Big is beautiful? I would rather say: make them harder to banish, and give them higher Def, and maybe lower their price... .

Agreed. Where's the fun in having a 2nd form, if you won't even see it because its gone on the next hit as well?

They don't use armors, says the 'background story', and they don't use shields as well.
But they have powerful, if short-ranged missile weapons as well - don't underestimate those. Sadly, they (as all Oni) have poor precision - I wonder why.
Considerung that they are 350 year old demons who do not much more than come to blows with each other, I would like to see their Att/Def/Prec stats rised significantly, and their resistances upped to full 100%.

As shortbows have only DAM 10, Prot 11-12 would make them pretty much impervious to missile damage ..
Even with Prot-6 only, they do not take that much damage from shortbows anyway. And once they're ethereal, 75% of the arrows miss ...
I'm more concerned with the low melee stats, which make the get hit way to often ...

No need to do that - the game does that on its own if you slap armor on them. Armor would mean more encumbrance and less Def as well, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want that.


"Yomi, Oni Kings" does not summon any "Oni national summons", therefore I do not really know what you're talking about ... . If it's the different Tengu (no plural "s") - that spell already does summon 5 of them, the Dai Tengu even comes with 25 warriors. And Kappa and Karasu are useless or non-castable respectivly, anyway.

Agreed. To research both pathes to level 6 takes to long, especially as you'll want Conjuration, Construction and Evocation, too ... .


Agreed.
I've modded all the less-than-10 prec weapons and troops to have at least 10 prec test-wise, and 'friendly fire incidences' dropped by 1 order of magnitude... .



All in all - I think some of your claims, remarks and suggestions are quite valid.
Other seem to stem from a tendency to 'use' Yomi like any other, more 'standard' nation, which clearly can't and IMHO isn't intended to work.

I think, Yomi like e.g. Early Pangaea needs some creative and out-of-beaten-pathes thinking to be played successfully in either SP or MP. What IMHO isn't a bad thing - there must be something in the game to keep the Gandalfs and QMs occupied http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

I forgot: why is a 115 gold researcher with 5 research points 'poor'?

Which national mages from the early age are more cost-effective?
I have looked at some nation and havn't found any ?!?

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

It's a pity there isn't Stone Warriors at Alteration 4. Iron Warriors at Alteration 5 makes the targets vulnerable to lightning, but Stone Skin's cold vulnerability would be negated by Ao-Onis resistance.

Still, alteration seems like the way to go for the Oni. I think Immolation could be a very interesting spell for them.

Kappa could be useful in late game. They have protection 15 and an armor-piercing attack. I'm not sure how much fatique they get from fighting on dry land, though.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

The Dai Oni kings are perfect raiders in earlygame if you do a e9 bless.
With the e9 bless + summon ep they get 8 reinvigoration. So you can use them unequipped and they still make terrific thugs.
With equipment they are SCs.

Imho they are fine, you just have to rely on your mages. Your troops are not important, but the archers for 8 gold are useful.
Hanyas can cast flaming arrows for them.

Yomo is imho a good nation, but hard to play. But they have extremely interesting options available with the dai oni, which are imho more flexible than niefel jarls.

You said dai oni have less hp then the niefels, that is only half true, you have to count their ghost form hp as hp too. And their ghost form is an extremely useful feature:
A niefel jarl dies from 1 sucessful GfH hit, whereas for a dai oni you need 2 such hits.

And they have the most flexible buffs i think, both atlantis and niefelheim are a bit more limited there.

Summon EP, Invulnerability, Soul vortex, Fire shield, Phönix Pyre, every 4th mirror image.

They also can do terrific battle magic: Earthquake and RoS.


Their troops are a weakness, but at least the archers are useful enough. The Dai Oni are their main strength.
Imho they are balanced and one of the better early era nations. The only problem is that you are almost forced to play them with an e9 strat imho.

Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please read
 

Wow, that's a long reply. I'll try to address your points one by one. Sorry if I'll happen to miss some.




You are right, the early era troops certainly have lower protection than Middle and Late Era. And it is true that some troops do not wear any armor at all. Nevertheless, if you look at the demon armies, most of them would have to be to be consisted of tier 1 and tier 2 demons. That means their armor is between 3 and 4. The best demon troops (tier3) armor is prot 6, and they are very expensive, and fielding large armies of them is not really effective from cost-benefit point of view.

Now if you look across all nations in Early Era, you will find that having average protection of between 3 and 4 is definitely below the average in the armor department, even in Early Era. Also some nations have troops without armor, but very few nations have troops whose BEST armor is 6.
(other than Oni's single human infantry unit, but we are talking about demonic armies here. If you going to use humans and not use demons with Oni, that certainly not what Oni nation is supposed to be about, I think we can safely assure that we agree on that one.


I hope from the above post the fact that Oni demonic troops have very low armor even for the Early Era is pretty clear. But if even that doesn't convince you, let me ask you this:

Why do you think IllWinter called the best Oni specific battle spell, the one that raise demons protection from to 10, "End Of Weakness?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif


You are mistaken here. The way Dominion combat mechanic works, for protection 3 demons simple shortbows are more dangerous than crossbows. The fact that crossbow is AP only add 1.5 point (rounded) to the attack against armor 3 unit. Basically demons do not have armor to speak of to penetrate.

Also composite bows damage, which several nations have in early age, has been made equal to longbow damage in Dom2, equal 12. So you can say that there are indeed longbows in Early Era. They are just called Composite Bows.

Finally no demon troops have any type of shields. That also increase their vulnerability to missile fire.


So let me ask you this - have you tried firing bunch of simple no-thrill indep shortbow archers into demon army, tier 1, 2 or 3 - doesn't matter? If you didn't, please try it, and then come back and tell me about their "limited vulnerability" to archers.



You are correct, but there is a big difference between old blood summons and Yomi. The difference is that Oni nation is ALL about demons. So any human players knows very well that Oni do not have any non-demonic national troops other than archers and single weak human infantry. Any blood nation can use some demonic troops, but its up to them where, how and how much use them. So their opponents have no choice but be on their toes and not specialize in anti-demon warfare too much, because they can be always hited by some national troops for example. With Oni, especially in the early-mid game - it's all about demons. Unless of course you are going to play using archers and indep melee units, which, needless to say, defeats the whole purpose of having demonic nation.

This is subtle but very significant difference.



You misunderstand me, and you repeat the same argument down the road. I never said that all nations should be equal, or that they all should have sacred troops. But as you can see, this part of my original post was where I simply list all Yomi weaknesses based upon my observations so far.

Did I say - let's correct or change all of them? Of course not. Nation without weaknesses is boring and unbalanced. However not having any national sacred troops IS weakness, because not all but many other nations have them, and if some Oni units would be sacred it would of course make the nation stronger.

So my statement stands.


(Just to make it absolutely clear - I am not suggesting to give Oni sacred units. Every nation is different. However, it's perfectly valid to compare Oni with other nations, which I do in my post. "Weakness" is a relative term after all.)


What are the buffs you think they need? A N4E4 bless and a fire shield will make them quite useful even in the early game IMHO, and isn't hard to get at all.


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Soul Vortex and Invulnerability are the most useful spells for Oni Kings. Fire Shield should not be casted at all in the early game, before you can give your Oni decent armor and some fatigue reducing items, at the very least.

N4E4 is indeed good bless for Oni, here I agree with you. In my 3rd game with Oni I am playing N4E4W4.

In 30 turns and with good scales you can actually hire more than a dozen on Oni easily if you wanted to. However you really shouldn't. Onis are not very cost efficient before their have their buffs and before you give them equipment, all of which takes time a lot of time to research and produce. So in the beginning of the game it doesn't make sense for the Oni player to hire a lot of Onis, simply because there are many better uses for their money. As I said elsewhere, Dai Oni start to shine mostly in midgame and endgame, but not in the beginning.



Not true about "no heavy infantry".

Not true. From the top of my head - just look at S&A, or even better - Sauromatia.

What??? Why do you think so? Because they have semi-decent melee stats and melee weapon? If you play you cards right, your archers should never get into melee in the first place. Their role is to shoot, and leave combat to troops that can do it better. If you mean stealth, than yes, it is useful, and I listed this in my list of Oni's strengths. But best EA archers? You got to be kidding me, or you didn't look closely at other nations archers.


Correct. But the whole map is not covered by mountains. Unless you are playing on Himalaya map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Please tell me, why do you care about 1 enc on the lvl 1 priest ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Or 1 MR. In 99%+ of your battles none of this matters even slightly.


I do, a lot. Extra movement makes a big difference, trust me. Trying to keep up with MP armies using 1 MP priests can be somewhat tiring for the poor priest...


That's exactly what I said.



Well, I do like to think that I am somewhat capable of thinking outside of the box, on my good days at least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


What you said is all good and true, but these are just general statements. You do not post any example of possible innovative strategies here that you are refering to. In fact you humbly mention that "it might take better player than you".

Perhaps. But if you don't know any specific tactic that have not been mentioned so far by the people on this thread, how can you or me logically know that they do exist? Arguments like "such strategy must exist because Dominion is extremely complex and infinitely intricate game, where all nations are balanced by definition" will not impress me, to tell you the truth.

(I am being slightly sarcastic here, but please take no offense. I do not mean to flame you, or pick a fight. I am just saying that IMHO when you say things like this and talk about creative and innovative strategies, instead of "no brainer W9F9 bless", or "my screwed MP perspective" et cetera, et cetera, you should really put some specific stuff and examples there, not just general statements, if your want your arguments to be convincing.).

The strength of the Dai-Oni is not so much in stats but in magic paths. That's why, as I said, it is worse than Jarl in early game, but better in end game, when you have reseached spells that allow you to reilize Dai Oni magic potential.


Read my statements above. You are implying things I never said or meant.

I agree with you about Dai-Oni and low level bless though.


Read above.

Already replied to that above.


Well the exact numbers are debatable of course. +3 or +4 seems right to me. But I would prefer to give Oni +4 against Banishments only, not other type of spells. That would keep them balanced, because 18MR is a lot, you are right.


All these is possible changes. The main thing is that current situation when they are easily banished by droves by lvl 1 priests is not right. I am glad that you seem to agree with me here, as well as pretty much everybody who have posted on this thread, as far as I can tell.


Very true.

Oni General,( who BTW happens to use the same graphic) do use very heavy armor, as well as Dai-Oni. Background story could be slightly abjusted. It wont ruin the feeling of the nation or anything.
In fact, for the heavily armored Demon Commanders, who clearly understand the value of good armor in battle, to order their best and most valuable crack troops to use some armor which would increase their chances of surviving the battle to spread even more chaos and mayhem, is perfectly reasonable.

See, here is a simple but quite workable example of your new background story. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I don't. Read the part of my original post about their shooting.

LOL. Now you are starting do suggest significantly more dramatic changes than I did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Not so. I think you are forgetting about open dice rolls. Prot 11 units with no shield will suffer from damage 10 missile fire.

Sure they do, a lot. If you haven't tried it, do some experiments with Kuro-Oni and archers.

As for low melee stats - defense and protection to some degree can be mutually interchangeable, as far as unit health concerned. You can raise either one stat or another, both situation will result in unit surviving longer in the melee.


I am talking about Oni and Kuro-Oni troops here, not commanders.

"Yomi, Oni Kings" does not summon any "Oni national summons", therefore I do not really know what you're talking about ... . If it's the different Tengu (no plural "s") - that spell already does summon 5 of them, the Dai Tengu even comes with 25 warriors. And Kappa and Karasu are useless or non-castable respectivly, anyway.


I know. My point was that other summmons should also bring more than a single low level demon, while costing proportially more of course


Very true.

Yeah, I would suspect they would.

Thank you. I can say the same about yours.

Perhaps. I do not agree with you, but you may be right. To prove your point you will have to come up with specific strategiesand examples of how Yomi should really be played, according to you. Even better would be if you try it yourself and see if they work or not, before we discuss them here. I am genially interested in learning new interesting and innovative strategies about Oni. And in my games I always try to experiment and play with different stuff when I am learning new nation, and even after I've learned it well.



[/quote]

Anyway, thanks for your time and efforts, and for your input, they are appreciated.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

You make some very good points Boron. I completely agree, Dai Oni are more flexable (and potentially more powerful) than Niefel Jarls. That's why I like them more, and as I said earlier, in the end game with good buffs and items they make better SCs than Jarls.

I haven't tried E9 bless with Oni. I suspect you are rigth, and it might work reasonably well. However I would expect your Dai Oni to suffer and collect afflictions quickly, if you use them butt naked from the very begining.

Still it maybe worth it because of faster expansion. It's hard to know for sure before you actually try it. An interesting idea in any case. Personally if I would be trying something along these lines, I would probably throw N4 into the mix, to make my Dai Oni last longer without becoming walking wreck due to injuries. And at the very least I would get them before sending them on their own or with only missile support against tough indeps.

Overall I think your and mine perception of Oni are not too far from each other. I agree than Dai Oni are great, and the archers are cheap and low resources. But all my suggestions, as you can see, were centered on Oni demon troops, which, as pretty much all people here seem to agree, including yourself, are very weak and need some boost, or there is not much point of using them at all in MP.

And playing Oni Kings nation while only using single demon king SC and bunch or human archers/infantry, without using any of 6 demon troops, just doesn't seems as a elegant solution to me from the design/balance point of view, if you know what I mean. I think Oni overall balance and diversity would increase a lot, if the actual demon troops would be made efficient in MP by few tweaks. My suggestions are an attempt to do just that.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Hmm, long post now. I'll only make a short answer. Arralen has given some input and I agree at least to a degree.

MR will not be upped. The demons of Yomi are not of infernal nature as much as evil and uncivilized spirits of the wild. They do come from hell, but are quite comfortable living in the mountaineous and volcanic regions of this world. Giving them more MR would not fit. Making them more resistant to banishment is not a good solution either. Excorcism is quite prevalent in the east. Perhaps more so than in western tradition. So increasing banishment resistance (wich by the way is not a vialble option game-mechanic-wise) does not fit my conceptions.

Raising Ghost MR on the other hand is not a bad idea.
It might be combined with another idea that was discussed in the beta: oni flee when turned into a ghost. This would decrease casualties.

I'm not opposed to sacred armed oni warriors, but I haven't any ideas formed atm. I would probably make them summonables.

I prefer lower costs to higher stats. There are rarely swarms of oni atm.

EDIT: hmm, so much for a short answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Oni Kings analysis. Developers please read
 

Heh. Thanks Mortibus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This analysis and the replies took me quite a few hours today. I think it will be a while before I'll be ready to do another race detailed analysis - I would like to have some time to actually play the game as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Thanks for dropping by Kristoffer, and thanks for your comments.

I undesrtand your reasoning behind not wanting to raise MR for thematic reasons. I actually think it's great that you care much about flvor and cultural/historical background of the game.

So I'll drop this particular suggestion.

Regarding lowering cost and raising MR on ghosts form - that would work as well and I think would be quite good solution. I think the cost would have to be lowered quite a bit though, because currently demons are very not cost effective, as pretty much everybody on this board seem to agree. If they would be twice less expensive, with tier 2 Aka-Oni demons costing 15 gp instead of 30, than it probably it would go long way toward make them somewhat useful in MP, despite the remaining crutial weakness to Banishment. But perhaps you would think that it would be too much?


And what about rising hp of oni's ghost forms to be the same as their normal form instead of being at 50%? Currently ghost of powerful demon Kuro Oni has only 7 hp more as ghost of wimpy Ko-Oni. That doesn't feel right to me - ghosts of powerful demons should be quite more difficult to Excorcise than the lowest ones, don't you think?

Again thanks a lot for your reply and your considerations.