Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

What makes repel weaker than Awe is the fact that you get -2 to repel confirmation attack rolls after each repel. That means that you need both high attack AND long weapon - while usually long weapons have attack malus. I think repel works even when the attack hits the shield. The chance of dealing the 1 point of damage will be negligible, but the fact that a damage roll is generated at all means that it's considered a hit. In this regard, repel works better against heavily-armored, shielded units than high-defense, unarmored units with equal morale.

I might make a little mod that gives all long weapons attack bonus equal to (length - 2). Spears (len 3) would get +1 att, glaives (len 4) would get +2 to a total of att 1, etc. I'll only do that if someone would like to test it. Any volunteers for repel enchancement mod?

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

My first rule of defense is play to unit in questions strengths. The second rule is counter your opponents attacks, but thats a later lesson.

Anyways, if the thug has high defense, work on improving that. For example, a Niefle Jarl has an incredibly high base defense of 13. OK, thats not incredibly high, but its still good. Especially when you consider what bonuses they have access to. They all have base water magic of 3, meaning at least +3 defense there. They also get another +1 defense per each tick of the cold scale. They can also cast personal quickness for another +3 defense. Throw in a sword of swiftness (which has great synergy with personal quickness) for + 4 defense there. Other options include the Cat Charm for another +4 defense. This is before we factor in a shield's parry value and the effects of the chill aura on reducing enemy fatigue and thus attack skill. The rule of thumb is 30+ defense is untouchable by normal troops. This rule also applies to protection. So, if your thug has high base protection and access to earth magic, maybe protection is the route to go.

However, what inevitably kills units is fatigue. Meaning if you want to keep the thug alive when taking on hordes of barbarians, you have to give them some reinvigoration items. Nature magic has the best revig items, though earth has the girdle of might as well. Alternatively, for sacred units you can use an earth bless for some revig.

As for the best combo, focus on sustainability and not so much pure damage. Luck is ALWAYS a good thing, since it doubles a units survivability no matter what the attack. Luck is strictly the providence of Astral Magic. For high HP units, regen becomes very powerful and useful in this regard. Once again, nature has the best regen items (Hydra Armor and Ring of Regeneration). Regen also reduces the liklihood of afflictions.

Exact kits are going to vary per unit strengths and the resources of the nation, but for the above mentioned Niefle Jarl I like 1 sword of quickness, 1 horror helm (adds fear, great for PD), Boots of the Messenger (+4 revig), 1 luck amulet, and 1 anti-magic amulet combined with a (6N6E4W bless, +10% regen, +3 revig, and +2 defense). Jarls Casts at least personal quickness. Armor and shield as available. Both eye and vine shields are good options to have, though the default Ice Aegis ain't bad. Armor should be low encumbrance.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Comments on repel in general - I think it's not as useful for a single powerful unit that will get swarmed (as in real situation, I believe), but it's quite useful for formations of pikemen and such against low morale chaff, like some PD.

I played as MA Ulm recently and observed combats closely. The guardians, when fighting some wolf tribesmen actually did the repel animation very often, and in case of low HP chaff, even that 1 damage on successful repel maybe important. Moreover, it's and extra layer of defense that really extends life expectancy of the troops.

So, IMO it's not worthless at all.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

How is 1 damage going to be useful, even against 10 hp chaff?

If the guardian hits them he's basically going to kill them whether they have the full 10 or they're on 9. I mean I know it's better than nothing, but it isn't much better.

I don't think anyone is saying repel is useless, just that it isn't a major consideration when picking troops.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

That one damage could be very signifacant. Read page 80 of the manual about "Heavy Losses".

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

I think if the target of the repel fails the morale check and does not attack, its morale goes down? I think I have seen this happen before. Like when a unit has fear the units surrounding that unit can get reduced morale if they fail the fear morale checks.

If the target passes the morale check and attacks it might get 1hp damage if it passes protection. As Dedas said if you keep getting 1hp damage it counts as a wound in the heavy losses requirement for another morale check.

I guess it could all add up if you had lots of repels.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

1 hp wouldn't count as a wound on anything except for some insects or animals. It needs to have 80% of it's hitpoints or less. Humans tend to have 10 or more.

If multiple successful repels are occuring on your troops, and that is enough to route your army, then the problem is most likely caused by there being a significant gap in the quality of your troops and the enemy troops.

Overall, I have to agree with Sombre on this one, repel isn't a major consideration when picking troops, and perhaps it should be made somewhat stronger.

The most thematic suggestion I could make is that repel has a bonus vs. mounted units and vs. trampling. Then at least it would be situationally useful. Furthermore, while I'm aware that 0 length weapons are easier to repel, I think that aspect should be expanded, so the overall difference in length is used, so for example a pike repelling a dagger is significantly more likely than a pike repelling a spear.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

If trample could be repelled at all, even by something like pikes, elephants would be much, much weaker. They have poor morale AND poor defense, and an elephant trying to trample a squad of pikemen would probably have to pass 3 repel checks. If en elephant does manage to get through, his friends might not be so lucky and he's all alone next to 20 or so pikemen.

Not that I wouldn't like to see units capable of repelling tramplers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Speaking of repel... I once had an SC pretender holding off enemy armies in my dominion. My opponent liked casting swarm for some reason, which summons a bunch of 1 HP insects. Mostly used as a screen, the pretender still killed all the insect when they attacked due to repel. Made it much easier to move onto the important targets.

Re: Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?
 

Saulot,

The manual states: "A wound is simply 1 or more hit points of damage that reduces a unit to 80% or less of its normal hit points.." "...every hit there after (even for 1 point) will continue to count...".

So the 1 hp repels will count as one wound once the unit is below 80% health. Thus creating more morale checks.

On the other hand I still agree repel is kind of weak and should be expanded on as you said.