Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

British Names

I’ve long used the names ‘Wolverine’ and ‘Achilles’ when playing wargames – but I don’t think those names were actually used much during WW2 – if at all. Here are three different sources on the subject.

British Armour in the Normandy Campaign, 1944 by John D Buckley:

M10 and M36 Tank Destroyers 1942-53 by Steven J. Zaloga:

British Tank Destroyer Achilles 17-pdr M10 SP by Wojciech J. Gawrych:

The names ‘3-in M10’ and ‘17-pdr M10’ may be more historically accurate than Wolverine and Achilles – but the names Wolverine and Achilles are better known by most wargamers.

Armour

I don’t think the 17-pdr M10 received additional armour. The Gawrych book on the Achilles looks at the vehicle in great detail and does not mention any additional armour being added as standard. The photo of a 17-pdr M10 taken during Operation Varsity shows a RA vehicle that has been fitted with a field-expedient sheet metal roof. The Gawrych book also has a photo of a 17-pdr M10 fitted with appliqué armour, but it makes it clear that the additional bolted plates were of a “provisional field based design, since auxiliary armour plates intended for the M10 were never manufactured.”

A New Suggestion - The LBM

The LBM for the British 17-pdr M10 ‘Achilles’ clearly shows an M10. There is a LBM for the Achilles in winspmbt which could be used instead: PM07025. Any new LBM could also be used for the Canadian and Polish Achilles.

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

What I'm objecting to is the notion that Achilles should be used because it is an official name. It was, but only within the walls of the DTD. Everywhere else, the official name was SP, 3-inch, M10 and SP, 17-pr, M10.

Wolverine was never an official British name for the M10 of any sort, perhaps not an official name at all.

As for names being "universally recognized by players", it would seem to me that after the game has been out there for nearly 15 years and its SPCamo incarnations for 10+ years, the names for the M10 that are in the game use work just fine :D

I've never heard anyone complain that they could not find these vehicles - as opposed to finding out what hides under the PZFNWKTH in the German OOB or the CarArmGrGa in the italian :D:D

Sure. Achilles is known because someone back in the day stumbled upon that name, probably in the DTD archives, and used it in his books. Later it was used in the "Armour Profiles" and "British and US Tanks of WWII" in the 1960ies, and the it stuck. And since everyone is copying everyone, it still used all over the place.

The issue was dealt with extensively by Dick Harley in a series of articles on the M10 in AFV News back in the 1990ies, using British archival records. Harleys research did not find any mention of "Wolverine" in the DTD records or anywhere else, so exactly how that name came to be is anyones guess. It would fit the Canadian practice of naming AFVs after wildlife, so perhaps that is the source. Your source "anonymous" seems to think along those lines, as he suggests that Wolverine was a Canadian M10 prototype based on the Ram chassis. Never heard of that one before though...?

As for the "Achilles", you wrote:

There was not, to my knowledge, ever a M10, 3-inch GMC I/II. I'm not sure what the two roman numerals would indicate?

As for your description of British names, it makes no sense to me? Wolverine was British name for unconverted M10s but they were officially called Achilles as well?

The reality is that there was one US version of the M10, the 3 inch Gun Motor Carriage M10.
When the DTD was labelling them - and they apparently did not do so until 1945 - all M10s, converted or not, were called Achilles. The Achilles I being vehicles with the early turret (V-shaped turret rear), the Achilles II being vehicles with the later turret (flat rear turret). When converted to SP, 17-pr M10, they became Achilles Ic and IIc respectively.

Still, the names probably never existed outside the DTD - and in misguided postware litterature ;)

I suggest game designers do whatever works and make them happy. :)

Or perhaps we should be carefull using as reference an unreferenced post by someone called "anonymous" and "Mr. Bunny" on some interweb blog :D

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

...and that would be so nice! :);)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

I've already added a better photo as PM00412

Don

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

While I kind of agree with you CBO, I don't want to be the one Don asks to do all the research and make all the changes.:sick: I'm sure that Don would appreciate any help on the project if you wanted to volenteer. ;):D

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Hi CBO,

Well at least you recognize that ‘Achilles’ was an official name, but it obviously didn’t remain within the walls of the DTD, because now – like it or not – it is widely recognized. :)

But this is all academic, as it doesn’t much matter which department where called what when; or which source trail backs it up.

The fact is, the British M10 is widely recognized around the world, in books and on the internet as the ‘Achilles’ and ‘Wolverine’.

After this thread I looked at SPWaW, and the 3in version is called ‘Wolverine’ the 17Pdr ‘Achilles II C’. I don’t mention WaW as reputable source, not at all, but as another example of common usage.

Armour
As for referencing a site which has “anonymous” in the title, well I didn’t claim it was a credible source, in fact I was suspicious of the info. When you are talking about WWII trivia, you can find seven sites with eight different opinions; and half those sites have very official sounding names. :doh:

cheers,
Cross

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

If its misguided most tank museums get it wrong to, Cross lists its full name correctly but in the field it tended to be called Wolverine or M10 plus gun as in M10 17Pdr
This helped us poor Brits tell what it was as naming equipment by a number did not seem to work well with the Brit mind set I guess, its a what so many Ms:)
Achillies implies its got a soft spot
Wolverine its fast & American as in the animal, perhaps a bit cunning to. Though luckily Baldrick was not around at the time

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Nah, I've done my stint of several years as an SPWW2 playtester, including a fair bit of OOB fiddling of this nature :)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

Revisit my first post - I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along.

...and I have just told you why it is so. Doesn't change the fact that it was never used during the war outside the DTD and Wolverine has no official origin and no one - not even on the Interweb, seems to be able to agree on what Wolverine is actually referring to :)

But I can see that you subscribe to the "if 1.00.000.000.000. flies like ****, then **** must be the greatest thing"-school of thought ;)

In my world, SPWaW is not a reputable source for anything :)

Also, in my world, reputable sources are those which has their references in order, which excludes 99,9% of Interweb pages which cannot even be bothered to list the books from which they are illigally copying pictures and information.

Why, then, do you think its take on names are credible....?:)

Dont get me wrong, in this day and age, you sometime have to rely on Interweb for information on obscure things, but the basic rules of research still applies. What Mr. Bunny thinks and writes without reference to anything is useless dribble that no one should bother much about. At least go for webpages which has a known author and have some kind of references. They are out there, you know :)

cbo

Re: M10, Wolverine, Achilles Self-Propelled Guns
 

It may be news to you, but museums gets lots of stuff wrong - often they just use the information available to you and me, primarily books, and they will, like any one else who has not had the time and opportunity to dig into the matter, get it wrong.

I would like to point out redcoat2's post, which clearly shows that the naming issue regarding the M10 is being dealt with in books, showing that not everyone is satisfied endlessly repeating the same old info.

He does?

..and this you know how?

Actually, judging from manuals and wardiaries, the British were perfectly capable of using silly things like M10, SP, 17-pr M10 and such :)

And you know this how....?

Seems more likely that the DTD decided that self-propelled anti-tank guns should have names beginning with A - like Archer, Achilles and Avenger...:)

There is nothing fast about an M10, nor does Wolverine fit what appears to be the DTDs naming conventions for SP anti-tank guns. Maybe there is a reason why it wasn't used in WWII.... :)

cbo