Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

If that's the only thing, and it's otherwise usable, that's quite easy to change. Let me know if it is, and I can switch hair (and clothing) color schemes. Can also change the staff and other stuff like that. No prob either way. :)

EDIT: Oh! I just looked again. It's not so clear, but that's not hair -- it's a headdress. (For the source image, look up Brigade Models's Arianrod of the Obsidian Spear from the Celtos range of miniatures. Here's one image, though I used another one as the source image.)

I thought they were less powerful than the Gileadite bows, but I wasn't taking armor-piercing or stats into account. The larger bows that Mongolian foot units used *would* be a "Longbow of Accuracy" by middle-age earth standards. They were stronger, more accurate and had a better 'kill' range than the English longbow (long considered the epitome of bow technology, and should be the basis for the greatbow). I was trying to combine historical accuracy with the dominions universe, but I will edit whatever seems unbalanced to you vets. Maybe drop a few damage points?[/quote]

I had no idea about the Mongolian bows -- that's pretty amazing.

I was thinking actually about EA Hinnom's Great Bows (range 45, dmg 15 flat) rather than the Gileadite Bows (range 50, dmg 17 flat). Given that it's pretty difficult for size-2 units to top size-4 giants holding enormous bows, I think placing it somewhere inbetween the Long Bow (range 40, dmg 13 flat) and the Great Bow and giving it a precision bonus would still make it incredibly impressive, without impinging on the special/magical nature of the Longbow of Accuracy.

By the way, I claim no special knowledge here (no vet or anything -- I play SP only as well), so it's just my $0.02 grain of salt. :) And, of course, I'm assuming there are no size-2 units in the game that use Great Bows -- I don't recall ever seeing them, but of course could be dead-wrong.

Yeah, the randoms theme is definitely a nice one. As far as I've seen, the no-hard-paths thing isn't necessarily bad in se, and some nations, like Sauromatia, have such lablessly-recruitable mages, but, if you do do it, my (again, non-expert) understanding is that it should be treated and weighed as a national advantage. My thought: go with it! Just balance for it, as good players will use it to save 500 gold on labs for some forts.

Nah, I'm just unobservant. :) I missed the fifth! Will have to look at it again.

Glad to help any way I can. Yes, my one contribution is the corrected, hand-named version of the Glory SP map.

Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention -- I wouldn't worry one bit about the nation being thematically covered by T'ien Chi and Sauromatia. Think about it this way: how many nations did the devs make for Scandinavia? Variety and flavor is always nice.

Cheers!

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Alpine Joe

A poster named Globu had concerns as well, looks like it may be back to the drawing board. Historically, the average Mongol warrior would carry both the recurve bow for mounted use and the larger bow for use on foot at a longer range; with each bow he would have two quivers, one with armorpiercing arrows and one with arrows more effective for killing/wounding lightly armored humans and horses. (Yes, they purposefully killed horses.) I only made two to save precious weapon-space. Further ideas will, hopefully, be forthcoming. Side note: average Mongol warriors also carried a tool-use knife, a dagger, a tool-use battleaxe, a sabre/scimitar, a lance, a buckler, a suit of armor, a helmet, and silk underclothing for protection against armorpiercing and poisoned arrows; as well as all the trappings to maintain and repair said items, as well as mend their clothing, tack & harness and siege weapons. This amount of gear was mitigated by the fact that even the lowest born man or woman warrior (they were equals) would have four to five spare horses to take into battle.

I, as well, felt they were too cheap. I actually plan on raising *all* troop costs, there lower cost was more of a testing measure. I just thought it would be better to use suggestions as a control, than my own arbitrary choices. I agree that they are not thematic for a cavalry nation, ala dominions. However, historically (I seem to like that word), the Mongol cavalry was the vanguard for a larger infantry force; it's just that the cavalry was so powerful, by the time the footmen got there a day or two later, the besieged had already lost or surrendered (this fit nicely because then the tired footmen would become the local garrison). (Much like the Huns, they actually rarely attacked, they usually just camped outside the gates until someone came out and paid them to go.) Originally, I had intended them to be PD only, but decided that ignoring an important part of their historical strategy (cavalry making camp at area of invasion to tie up forces and prevent supplies from reaching the besieged, as the infantry foot-slogged their way to the same point for the pitched battle; not unlike my dominions playstyle where appropriate) would be detrimental to the overall feel. I am open to change on this and all subjects, however. :)

I think in my limited playtesting they only ran out of ammo once, but the reason I gave them high ammo was because they always carried two very large quivers with them. I gave them all high AP, high mapmove and three survivals (among other reasons) to simulate the quickstrike nature of the mongol hordes, whose infantry was even known for it's rapid deployment. I am not really commited to stealth, I just thought stealthy cavalry was a neat idea that I hadn't yet seen elsewhere. I was thinking of giving them flaming horsebows (more damage? less ammo?) and raising the cost to thirty gp. They have a lance because even Mongol infantry carried a lance to use as a spear (their lances were more like spears in design, although used as a lance on horseback). I can change whatever feels wrong though. Or even remove them completely. I aim to please.

I guess I could lower the AP on them somewhat, but I used AP as the first primary variant for the troops. I believe I was trying to create similar stats to Horse-Brothers, who I feel represent Huns/Mongols/Cossacks. I was going to increase gcost to five more than whatever I set the vanguard at.

I thought they were all a little cheap, but maybe I actually hit the nail on the head with them? Maybe I'll go just 5gp higher on each, instead of the 10-15 I had planned.

I made changed them from cap only to mitigate the fact that I added low numbers of them to second tier PD, and to make a bless viable. I realize that they probably don't *need* a bless, but I think bless should be an option (not a 'be all-end all') for all/most nations. I can easily add them to a startsite though. Or perhaps change them in such a way that a bless wouldn't seem mandatory (if it does).

Probably a good suggestion, if one more person agrees then I will make it so. I really like the unit myself. And if you wondered why I gave them (and most of the troops/summons) abilities they can't use, it's because my dominions-playing bro have GoR wars, where we try to GoR as many different units as possible. (Ever GoR a four-star militia? He *ROX*!) :rolleyes:

One worm for four gems was exactly what I was going for. But I can't seem to make it do just one. My #nreff is 1001, is that the wrong value for a 1+ summon? Or am I using the wrong value? Anyway, that change will be implemented as soon as I figure out el problemo. If I can't for some reason, I will double or triple the gem cost for a better ratio. Do you feel nature is appropriate? My first thought was blood, my bro suggested fire (though they use electricity and acid, not fire, despite the graphic).

I also like this one, and even felt it was the right cost. I thought they were too strong though, maybe my judgement was hasty. My bro says the leadership on the commander is too low (though, knowing him, he summoned allies for twenty or more turns before even looking). I felt poorleader was just right (and he would have no leader if it didn't summon troops as well). This is one I really want a better sprite. (Current Great Ape sprite would be ok if it had white fur.)

Strong, but not too? When I had them at conj-3 at 10 air gems for 3+ I easily conquered yalun-to in less than two years. (Then my cap produced 4 air gems a day though. And Tengri was low enough cost for me to take 9 dom.) I like them as they are as well.

I hadn't actually tried it since I increased the fatigue cost (was 80!). Maybe reduce the number of effects? Or perhaps raise the researchlevel? Or just raise the pathlevel? Would using elephants instead of Caelum mammoths make a difference? Ideally, I would make a new Mastodon troop, but not until I have a proper sprite. I really like the fit, the Altaic area was rife with mastodons in an earlier time (and seems to go great in dominions). Plus I own an album called 'Call of the Mastodon', and I love the title. Although, in one battle, on one cast they took a fort by themselves. The other two times I used them they ran away. :( I just assumed that this would happen more often than not (low morale, I think) and didn't test it any further.

I had actually meant to disable to immortal tag. Although, it fits best with their other summons and the spirit multihero. The low cost was also part of playtesting. Part of why I made them cheap was because of the cost of those durn airboosters. Will raise the cost to 50, because you have great suggestions, and does seem to be very reasonable if I leave them immortal (will still raise to ~40 if I disable #immortal).


Muchas gracias! Will respond to the rest of your post ASAP.

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Having thought about it, here's a really quick suggestion for stats I'd offer for the bows.

First, note that effective range is heavily affected by precision. Thus, if you gave them a weapon with the same stats as a longbow but with a precision bonus of 2, it would in fact increase effective range, so it's not necessary to improve them too much in other stats.

That said, here's my suggestion:

Range 40. Damage 14. Precision bonus 2, but this has to be balanced by your cavalry units' precision -- if you're giving them precision on the order of a base 12, that's already a heavy advantage. I'd suggest 11 precision on the cavalry and precision bonus 2, which amounts to a horrific base precision of 13 on those monsters.

If you'd like to up the range a bit, I don't see why a non-round number won't work. 42? It's the answer to life, the universe and everything, anyway.

I'd definitely shy away from AP, as that's clearly, in the game, the province of the fire-every-other-round crossbow mechanic.

The lack of applicability of fire arrows still is kinda bothersome though. Anyway, that's my suggestion for stats!

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

I definitely like the flavour of the mod and the source material.

Suggestions:
Balance-wise, the longbow is basically 'best in the game' level for bows. The Quyanate greatbow should preobably be in line with that sort of power (drop the AP, range 40-45, and you still have an impressive bow).

Also in balance terms, Horsebows should probably be less powerful than a composite bow - especially in terms of range. Currently your opponents have the unenviable challenge of crossing the entire battlefield under longbow fire in order to engage units who can face down heavy cavalry. If the cavalry had to start off closer to their enemies it would redress the issue somewhat. Perhaps a range of 25-30? As regards the vanguard, it'd work just great if you gave it a lance instead of a light lance (or made it a special copy of the lance with lower damage). At the moment it's trying to use a light lance in one hand and a sabre in the other.

Magic-wise, Water is probably the only path you can't get at level 3 (well, B3 is very unlikely, but you have some Blood access so the rest will follow eventually). Again, this is probably a little too much.
The mages/clerics: They're pretty much all named as worshipping a specific god - great historically, but not quite so good if your Pretender is called Bob. Why would worshippers of a deity other than the Pretender get priest levels or sacred status? Their mixture of diversity and power could be addressed by making one sect the priests of your Pretender and casting the rest as also-rans. Give the also-rans a chance of getting one level (and no more) in their chosen paths (maybe give one of the also-ran sects the possibility of level 2 in their paths, come to think of it) and you'll have something better in line with most nations.

You've a shedload of great material in this mod, and I reckon there's enough here for a mod in each age. Give each age a focus on a different sect and you'd have the basis of 3 great mods.

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Alpine Joe

Randomness does seem good, and I also felt they were too cheap, for the most part. I only added researchbonus to servant/priest of bay-ulgen, bay-ulgen and (erroneously, Tengri). Should I give a research malus to the rest then? Is this usual for other nations? Or just for these guys? I do agree though, and research will go down. But not for Bay-Ulgen, et al. He and his followers will either retain a research bonus, or simply won't get a malus; which would you prefer, comrade?

His original cost was 90; so, no problemo!

Not too cheap for a potential 3F?

Not too cheap for a potential 4D or 2D2B?

Which do you feel is a better option? At this point, I want them to be a staple researcher, so I will up the cost to 210 to be safe.

I thought maybe was too expensive considering his only real use was the potential water picks. I used the #nobadevents to give a little use of the buildup of them you could get trying for a remote-searcher.

I was going for a researcher who could make a decent battlemage in a pinch (all their mages really, I figured if Mongols had mages, they would be battlemages). Will focus into a battlemage role by reducing research by 1 (maybe 2). Great suggestion!

I had hoped he wouldn't be too cheap considering what he brings to the table. He looks good as a forger/situational battlemage (my goal) right now?

I made them cap only for that very reason. However, they are probably still too cheap; I will split the difference and raise the cost to 260gp. Another great suggestion. Side note: I hadn't really thought about how powerful they *could* be with those paths, just how thematic and cool they would be.

This was one where I felt the most comfortable in pricing. I felt the #assassin tag might be unthematic (at least in the early Mongol history), and almost went with seduction instead. Suggestions? Side note: The Mongols made frequent use of spies. What would be a good amount to raise the cost of the scout by because he has the #spy tag? I'm thinking 5-10, but it could be a more powerful ability than I realize. Or is his current cost fine?

In one play test game, I only recruited them and was using aim/other buffs and firing with their bow (with some heavy-type cavalry bodyguards/arrowcatchers; it seemed so effective that I didn't want them to outshine the Priestess of Tengri. Any other suggestions on putting them on equal footing? I would prefer it to be a tough decision on which cap only to recruit, unless you really need a specific one. I will reduce their cost to 250 (original) and increase their research by one.

I love suggestions, and you seem pretty good at making them. MP is without a doubt the greatest gauge for mod balance (this coming from someone who's only played SP). And I would be proud to know that someone liked them enough to try them in a MP environment.

Once again...Thanks!!! :)

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Trumanator

Thanks Murphy Brown, oops, I mean Trumanator. ;) I actually deduced this before playtesting, but thanks for the great info (seriously!). I only made the bows #bonus though (Mongols children, boys and girls, learned to use the bow to hunt from the time they could draw one [a still lighter version, for children only], learned to use a bow for war from their early teens, and no Mongol would ever leave home without at least one bow. And I would like to give all the mages and the foot unit one to represent this (though this is probably not a good idea, and I never implemented it). I only gave #ambidextrous 2 to the commanders and one sacred, does anyone feel the troops should have it too? Or maybe make the sabre #bonus instead of giving them ambidextrous? Ambidextrous is thematic, historically (that word again!) any warrior culture that didn't rely on tight formations like the greeks, romans, chinese, persians, etc,was trained to fight with both hands equally well with any weapon (including switching bow hands for horse-cultures). Suggestions?

Thanks Trumanator


Globu, again!

Hmm, it does look like hair to me. I like it, and if you change it so that it looks like black hair, or more clearly (to me, it really is subjective) like a hairband, I will make one of the mages a female with a pike or #newweapon (Spear of Justice?). Suggestions? (The only reason I wouldn't use her for the Priestess of Tengri, is that I consider her a more traditional caster... but if some people think that it would be good for the priestess, it's fine with me. Maybe use her for Servant of Manzan?) BTW, that is a cool mini from a company I hadn't heard of, and you did a pretty good job of making a dominions conversion.

Recurves were amazing, and played a huge role in Hunnic, Mongol, Turkic, and Persian dominancy. (In many of these cases, bad leadership did what opposing armies could not... stop the might of mounted archers!)

Sorry, I thought that EA Hinnom had the same bow in the different eras; and that the greatbow was on a unit I, heretofore, had never seen. My Hinnom-mania ended after six long SP games (two on 400+ glory map), six victories and the realization that Hinnom really does *EAT EVERYTHING!* My thought was that a giant holding the equivalent of a long bow, would still be inferior to the Mongol-style recurve, but I am not *always* correct. ;) I really want to keep them #armorpiercing, or I, for one, would never recruit them over a mounted archer. Side note: The three primary bows I can recall being known as a greatbow are the English longbow, the Japanese mounted longbow, and the African footbow (which was larger than a longbow, braced with the feet while laying on the back, drew back with both hands, fired the equivalent of a javelin (although it was still an *arrow* with flights), had the power of a crossbow, and was the equivalent of a siege weapon in most parts of southern Africa (and other parts, I believe). Interestingly (or not), my house mod for machaka incorporates these on a #newmonster; I also created guys with throwing irons (large, crude, vaguely blade-shaped, generally unsharpened, heavy pieces of iron that were deadly effective at close range).

I meant a vet to the boards or SP as much as a vet to MP or modding. I appreciate your input, look forward to more, and am gaining valuable insight. Like I said, I thought the greatbow was on a unit I've never seen before. And I really would like to keep #armorpiercing on the "Qayan Greatbow." (Which was an arbitrary name... anyone like "Qayan Largebow" or "Qayan Large Recurve" or "Qayan Infantry Bow" better?

On advice of the once called Alpine Joe, I have increased the cost of several mages (albeit mostly hardpath ones). I can make others more expensive, or reduce number of randoms for any mage that still seems under-priced.

Don't feel bad, I couldn't find Erlik after I made him. And it's probably easy to miss Genghis too.

Thanks for the help. I had d/led the new version of Glory just minutes before I made that post. ;) Is there any way I could get you to make a version of the smaller Glory map with fixed starts? I made one myself, but on the G6 version.

I felt the same way, but was afraid that others wouldn't. Glad to be proven wrong. As I am an idealist heart, and a realist in thought, I make for a *great pessimist!* ;)

Back at you, although I don't drink anymore. And when I did, I surely didn't drink their. ;)

Thanks all, again!

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Globu, habit-forming

Truth be told, I hadn't even considered that aspect! Very helpful.

I like it... but have concerns.

I really like it, I naturally cling to 0's, 3's and 5's. 42 is the answer and sometimes a robot can be a *great pessimist* too! ;)

I really liked the thematic element of the Mongols carrying armorpiercing arrows, but if is too overpowering in the dominions 3 metagame, then it had better go.

I am toying with the notion of somehow making a flaming bow #newweapon for some of the cavalry. Although switching over to vanilla bows is another option I've considered.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Gregstom, :salute: I don't know what these mean, but I just noticed you are a colonel and I'm a private. :salute: again.

Thanks. I do too. If I ever make another mod it would be for the race that even the Mongols feared. No, not the Vikings (a la, Eaters of the Dead/The Thirteenth Warrior; those were Tartars anyway, cousins of the Mongols, or sometimes, an alternate name for them). Nope, not the Japanese, whom live on an island chain the dynastic Mongol rulers of China considered to be *cursed* after having lost all their expeditions to said islands to weather events. (Shades of another certain Armada which attacked an imperialistic island nation, no?) Yes, that's it, the Goryo (Koreans); a country with the distinction of being the only Asian nation to have never been fully conquered by foreign invaders. They would be fun because they used Mongol, Chinese, Japanese and Rus equipment, depending on who they were fighting. Typically, like versus like. I hesitate because they were the originators of gunpowder/fireworks and this doesn't sit well with dominions. (However, copious fire-mages and flaming bows do...) And there is always my house Machaka mod, but that will never see the light of another computer until they get some real love from the forum-goers [or CBM].

Yeah, I tried to emphasize their superior weaponry, and probably over-compensated. Seems there is no way to keep #armorpiercing, so it's gone (from the community at least, it's special place in my heart ensures it in my house version.)

Actually, horsebow, recurve bow and composite bow are functionally interchangeable terms, as they all generally refer to a Hunnic-style bow. Once again, however, emphasizing superior weaponry has lead to overcompensation.

This was also the unenviable task of everyone who ever tried to stand against the Huns, Mongols, Turks, early Persians, Xiongnu, Cossacks and a host of other central Asian tribes. I tried to emphasize this too, at the cost of balance, apparently. :(

Anyone have a problem with me making a #newweapon for all the units that is somewhere between the two lances?

That is actually how they fought, according to historians of modern times and antiquity. Once again, true life does not make for dominions balance.

I wasn't even thinking that three in most paths was unbalancing, but on second thought you are surely correct. And three was my goal. I'll be sure to try to balance this on the next update, or the one after.

Again, you are correct, I think. My reasoning was taking a more pantheonic (true to life) approach. In the end, no matter who their favored god was, they all worshiped either Tengri or Ulgen. Much like the greeks all worshiped Zeus, no matter the favored god of the cult or temple. My goal was creating a host of cults (isn't Pythium like that? maybe it's another nation? maybe Mictlan? or maybe I'm dead wrong!) that all worked together towards a shared goal. Plus, part of it was taking into account the no hardpath status of many of the mages. (You may not have to buy a lab, but you *do* have to buy a temple; which you might not have done otherwise.) Once again, this *will* be addressed according to popular census over my own whims. And the part of making two max of any path other than Air and Astral would probably still work fine.

That is a very distinct possibility, though I would want proper sprites first. I did dislike posting with vanilla graphics. It would be harder for me to separate it into three mods than to balance one, methinks. That being said, I am in no way against it, I love your ideas, I think they do make great sense balance-wise (I'm rather unfamiliar with vanilla MA nations, other than machaka), and will probably want to do this in the future. Hopefully, before Dec 21, 2012. ;)


Thanks a lot, Gregstrom. :) You guys seem to have the best intentions at heart. Hopefully, I can make the most of them. ;)

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

Thanks! Yes, I love those minis by Kev White. He's unbelievable. I bought, like, 120 of the Celtos ones during a sort of binge five years ago.

Well, if it looks like hair at this scale, we can treat it as such. I'll see what I can do.

Very interesting on the bows -- especially that African one. Hey, I've seen posts like "Machaka could use some love..." -- may want to release that puppy.

Well, pricing can likely make an important distinction there -- in my own play I often find it fairly wasteful to splurge for cavalry archers when regular ones will do the job fine.

But aside from that, they can make for terrifying PD, if that is to be a national strength. Although given the offensive power level so far, these archers in PD may be a bit much -- but once it's balanced better, it can be a good fit. (That could also be remedied by a second class of cheaper foot archers using lesser bows, with these being used for PD instead.)

As for the thematic element, at least to me, 14-damage long-range bows are pretty impressive. And now, coming to think of it, in light of the flaming arrows problem and what you've said about the Mongols' recurve bows, I don't think it would be inappropriate at all to use the stock Great Bow of Hinnom's EA archers. And that would make them fearsome and distinctive in itself.

If you do go with armor piercing, though, it would seem appropriate to keep the damage down. It would make them a bit underwhelming against un-/lightly-armored targets, but then they're mostly dead meat anyway. It still seems like a tough fit, though, balance-wise, and will make them horrific in the early game.

I really like the use of Recurve in the name, since that gives the most descriptive information and is least abstract, giving something for the imagination to chew on. That may just be me though.

My pleasure!

As for giving the MP Glory map the same treatment... Not so sure about it. The larger one was a monster and took way more time than I expected. (I seem to like using "monster" and "monstrous" today -- I really hardly ever use those words.) Also, I'm working on a 650-province, meticulously tidied-up random-gen map that I hope to release some day. So probably not on the small Glory map.

:D


Now, all that said, here are some preliminary samples of what I'm dubbing Mongol archers. They're not finalized, and still need some detail work (stray pixels, edges, and so forth), not to mention base sprites (these are pretty clearly action sprites). Details like colors and bow size can be changed easily, as shown here. And I'll be throwing in a little nocked arrow, of course.

Let me know if you'd like me to proceed with one or both of these guys. (Each can be a different variant archer.) I can also customize, if you have a use for it, the female archer sprite I put up in the Avernum mod thread.

Re: Cinggis Qayan, Wrath of the Khans
 

A note on the recurve bows: I had assumed (given the history and geography of the Ashdod/Hinnom/Gath source material) that the greatbows they used would be recurves. Their piccy looks sort of recurved, for that matter. If that assumption is correct, Qayanate bows shouldn't be quite up to those stats (Ashdod giants would presumably treat a 166 pound pull as a child's toy).

As far as vanguards etc. go: Their attack values drop (obviously enough) because you're using two weapons with a combined length of 6. Making the light lance a #bonus or adding some ambidexterity would fix this, as others have noted. The mental image of a horseman using a sabre and light lance while simultaneously getting effective use out of a buckler seems a little odd, though. My initial idea had been the creation of a sort of 'medium lance', with the lance's function of breaking on the first hit and the #bonus tag. I don't know if that's possible, though.

Mages: You're right on the button when you refer to Pythium. They and Mictlan are existing models of pantheonic faiths within the game. Pythium handles worshippers of something other than the Pretender by giving them the heretic tag, while Mictlan gives different sects the task of worshipping different aspects of the Pretender. Either works nicely. They're also (I think) a good model of the sort of mage power a magically diverse nation should have.

By the way, why does the Quyan light scale they use have 0 enc? It doesn't matter for the cavalry, and the infantry are definitely under-encumbered given their levels of protection.

PS: Don't worry about the colonel thing. It certainly doesn't mean I'm any kind of expert.