Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Well here is the JKPF Map, (although I don't like Wikipedia, this is just a copy-paste of the JKPF map). In the Ossetian War, there were many useful organization, ICRC, JKPF are but two of them, so their data is good and actually honest. Here's the JKPF map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/f/f7/SO1.jpg

That road to the North of Zemo Roka is the Roki Tunnel. The shaded area is the territorry held by Georgian civvies, but on the eve of the war the civvies were evacuated, and the shaded territorry was controlled by Georgian militia. The Russian had to (and did) punch through the shaded area, on their way to Tskhinvali. Some also took the road from Dzari. In our scenario, that's where the Russian are coming from. The main thrust of the the Georgian attack came from Gori. That should give you an idea how the attacks developed.

Well if the game is played right to left, I guess the map should be tilted 90 degrees. Also, the location I gave as coordinates was the border crossing on the very northern part of Tskhinvali. I was also thinking like Wulfir, that top is north, and that you could fight from top to bottom. So I assumed, mistakenly, that I would get10 kilometers, (5 apiece), not 8, (4 apiece) when I did the map. I guess to correct this, the location I gave is no longer the center of the map, but exactly one mile North of the center, or in this case left of the center, as the Georgians were the primary attackers, but it should still be as much a meeting engagement as possible.

Initially I thought Top was North, but now left is North - I tried to clarify the changes above, hopefully I didn't confuse anyone.

HAHA. Well it's magical for me the edito-noob.

Will captured units be displayed with the Green Flag, and function as normal units? What's the diff between captured and non captured units in an actual battle?

That's true, Red has it all. But I was hoping to use Red for Ossetia, and possibly any Russian units that I might end up modifying. Additionally, there were volunteers helping out South Ossetia - otherwise they wouldn't be able to field a 4,000 men army for 80,000 people. Additionally, the Georgian Army was modernized and rebuilt according to the NATO standard, whereas Red is, (with the exception of certain groups like Al Qaeda) is based on the Warsaw Pact standard.

Quick note on civilians, and why they're not included: despite both, the Russian and Western mass media crying about "massive civilian casualties" - these casualties were not much. No genocide, ethnic cleansing, or mass aggression took place. Saakashvili committed war crimes, but not mass atrocities. The super-pooper-mega casualty total is - 365 for Ossetia, 228 for Georgia, and some idiot trying to stop an Iskander with a camcorder. The Iskander won. And those casualties, for both sides, are heavily inflated, as both sides recorded militia into civilian casualties, and Saakashvili went one step further, recording the military dead into civilian casualties. Why not, when they're dead, they're civilians. The lowest count is 168 for Ossetia and 69 for Georgia. The real number is somewhere in between. To give you something to compare to, in post-Iraq Saddam, about 500 people die every day as a result of anarchy outside the Green Zone.

Civilians didn't do much to oppose Georgians or Russians. They ran, so it would be pointless to include civilians in our simulation, as they weren't killed en masse, and they didn't resist. Hmm, I can run, or I can shoot the tank shooting at me, hard call, I think I'll run.

(I'll post the weapon comparison chart I made tomorrow, if I hopefully find it.)

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

The diffrence between captured & Allies.
If use Allies they use there own exp & morlae in other words fight as normal.
ID flag shows their country.
If use captured manned crewed by your troops so use your troops exp & morale.
ID flag shows HQ country.

Therefore using captured can use red on both sides if want without the game giving one side Civil War ID flag as they will show under HQs ID flag.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Sorry for double post but you mentioned in first post OOB
.

My thoughts
First shows how games OOBs are pretty much right a lot of work goes into them.
For the Russians you could go with the standard setup I use if playing them.
In this case as BTR Companies

3X BTR Companies Page 2 about 8th from bottom.
1X BTR BTR Bn Support Company page 3 about 15th.
In fact you could use 3X BTR Co with MBT just below it to give each 4 tanks.
This is very close to your original & has the bonus of being set up already.
You lost 3 MGs & gained an ATGM & 3 Iglas
Gained RPG teams instead of snipers.
My view snipers the level you are talking = designated marksmen have standard rifles not sniper & you said COULD act independently.
Thats a lot of snipers even for an elite unit could allow a couple assuming Spetsnaz involved as think they were.

Easy purchase then in my view
3x BTR Co with MBT
If wish could remove RPG teams by assigning away but I would leave them.
1x BTR Bn Support Co, if you wish just delete the Iglas section.
Any spare tanks can be tacked onto this for command & control or if enough buy a tank co.
if you want a couple of snipers tac them onto Bn Support or change a RPG team in a couple of BTR Cos.
This pretty much gives what you are after for minimal work & C&C is setup all thats left I think is arty.
Buy a FOO (first unit after HQ best place or very last unit) which you have not mentioned.
If bought SPA Battalion bottom of page 2 you could spirit FOO vehicle away or change it to a second foot FOO if wanted.
Delete the formations it comes with & add the correct ones then assign C&C to him or your Support Co
Switch tank models if want.

Just produced what you want for minimal work less time than it took to write this pretty much straight out of the box with C&C sorted & minimal editor work.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Ahh, perfect, thank you. So I could just use Czech and Ukrainian tanks as captured. I was wondering how to do that, now I know.

All Russian units used in combat had Chechen War experience. The Russian Army adapts through warfare, thus the Russian Army heading into Ossetia to support the peacekeepers and civvies, was geared towards fighting infantry, and had weaponry to reflect that. This also explains Georgia's tank casualties. Out of a force of 180 tanks, Georgia lost about 95; 30 (give or take a few) to air strikes/Iskander/Tochka strikes, (with cluster munition warheads for the latter two) 21 destroyed by RPGs, AGSs and ATGMs, and 44 captured by outmanuevring and suppression fire. The "give or take a few" is due to Russian Air Force, that didn't track the casualties they inflicted, and the Georgians didn't report it either.

Even today, the Russian dug in, so it will be upto Georgia to again try to attack Abkhazia and/or South Ossetia, but I doubt they'll try it again. (BTW, in 2006, I said this war was going to happen.) Interestingly enough, parts of the Russian Intel that I read, indicated that Georgia was going to attack after the Olympics, or even on the last few days of the Olympics. So the Russian units trained, were hoping to watch the Olympics, but a war erupted instead. It also shows why the Russians were semi-prepared when the war began. But that could also have just been a rumor.

About the snipers - you're right, they should be marksmen, thank you for catching that. In fact they should be marksmen for both sides.

In terms of Bn Support, the Russians didn't have the luxury of having separate BTRs for the machine guns, as they were cramming their troops through the Roki Tunnel. Iglas also rode with infantry in this war.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...9/01/roki4.jpg

(BTW I love how the forum just reduces my pics to perfect size, so I don't have to deal with the resize crap.)

As you can see, it has only two lanes. Only one could be used to move the army in, as another was kept open for emergenices, VDV, SpN, convoys of wounded coming back, etc. Additionally the road is small until it reachest the city of Java, Ossetia's temporary HQ for the Ossetian War. And it couldn't be blown up, as it was protected by the SpN and MIG fighters early on in the war. Could a plane bombing on August 7th have succeeded? It's hard to tell when the MIGs were up in the air and patrolling. From what I've read, Mercs tried to blow it up from the ground, and ran into SpN.

Tanks operated independently, and the Russians don't like to split their tanks and use them as infantry support, unless they have to.

FOO belongs with artillery units, and I will eventually introduce arty units into the ORBAT, as well as tank battalions. Since I am doing /10 they will be introduced as companies. Mortars were usually assigned by company commanders, and didn't use forward observers.

The Russians had 2 Arty BDEs (the 292nd of the 58th army and the 50th of the 42nd division) the 292nd having MSTA-S and the 50th having Akatsiya (2S3M1) and five Bns, one for each regiment, with 135th having MSTA-S and the rest having Akatsiyas. However not all of these fought.

Also arty isn't all that's left. There were also Scouting Bns, SpN, VDV....

Anyways, here's the weapon comparison: mobile Arty for Georgia: 12 Akatsiya, 24 Dana (Czech Design), 6 Pion, and 7 more in Tbilisi as reserves, consisting of Akatsiya, 3 Giantsit, 2 Dana and MSTA-S. (Tbilisi ones were not used in the Ossetian War.) The Russian Mobile Arty consisted of 47 MSTA-S (36 from the 292nd and 11 from the 135th) 86 Akatsiya (12 from each remaining RGMT, 12 from Ossetian OOB and 36 from the 50th). However out of these only 32 MSTA-S and 74 Akatsiya were used. The Ossetians also had 12 Gvozdikas.

For the towed arty, the Georgians had 90 D-30s and 11 MSTA-B. 72 D-30s (18 from each RGMT, -18 from the 5th) and 11 MSTA-B were used. The Russians had 38 D-30 and 3 M-30. However due to logistical constraints, (i.e. you want to move in mobile arty before towed arty) meaning that only 12 D-30s were used. All towed arty was towed by the MT-LB Tyagach.

In terms of the rocket arty, the Georgians had 16 Grad BM-21, 8 GradLar, 4 Orkan, 2 Uragan and 12 RM-70. However there was a technical problem with the Orkans, or they didn't arrive on time, or something, but they weren't used, until it was pointless to use them. The Russians had 38 BM-21 Grad, 4 BM-30 Smerch and 4 BM-27 Uragan. Out of these, the Russian used 30 BM-21, and 8 Smerch and Uragan.

Totals for Arty are: 163 for Georgia and 156 for Russia. Although AT-Arty was used, it did not make virtually any impact.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4830/ossetssia.jpg

Would it be correct to assume this is the area where the major action will take place...?

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Sort of. There were several major actions in the Battle of Tskhinvali. The one were are focusing on had the Russians use the road, as you highlighted, and then do a flank, to attack directly from the North, while the Georgians attacked from the South. If you look at the map really closely, you'll notice a break between the shaded area (Georgian held) and Tskhinvali. The Georgians did not have a proper rear guard, thus allowing the Russians to use that thin strip of land for attacking.

The battle developed within Tskhinvali itself, whereas your arrows meet West of Tskhinvali.

And thank you for making me clear that up. I should've stated it much earlier in my posts. (Also, if Right attacks Left, then North = Left and South = Right. Although it really should be a battle engagement).


Currently I'm working on getting the Recon units for both sides in, that should be in my next post.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Quite possibly Recon should be trimmed back or ignored completly they are doing just that. If they get caught in a fight quite likely to be seperate from the main force.
I may well be wrong here as a civillian but true recon is a seperate thing I think of the scouts we use in game as a squad trained to split & cover more ground.
More scouting for contact than true Recon who probably gave you the local & are now trying to figure out force makeup etc.
So thinking is might have left a few behind to keep an eye on but the rest have moved on.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

Ah OK, so the Focal Point will be Tskhinvali itself...

Will there be any objectives outside the urban area?

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

That's most likely true, but since we're doing a mini-version of the entire war, I'll give both sides Recon, and let the leaders decide what to do with them. However, I will only give each side a single Recon Co, so they won't be able to affect the battle in a major way, and it's very feasible that 1 Recon Co for each side made it to Tskhinvali.

The Russians employed 2 Recon Battalions and 5 Recon Companies. Since this is a mini-map, I will simply use 1 Recon company to represent that. The Recon Company has 115 men, 4 BMP-2, 4 BRM-1K, 1BMP-1KSh, 1 R-145BM (or command vehicle) and 2 BTR-80.

HQ + Command vehicle - 8 men
1st Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2
2nd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BMP-2
3rd Platoon - 6 units * 3 men on 2 BTR-80 (with AA Guns)
4 BRM-1K - 24 men
Support units - 25 men, BMP-1KSh

Good website for BRM-1K Specs, although I think they're already in our ORBATs. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3360.html


For the Georgians, they had 4 Recon Co. of 101 men and 8 BTR-80, as well as a Recon Battalion of 1070 men. However most of the Recon Battalion units were manned by local militias. Taking into account what Imp suggested earlier, I propose giving the Georgians a single Recon Co of 101 men and 8 BTR-80. I am fairly sure that they also scout vehicles.

HQ + Command Vehicle - 8 men
1st Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
2nd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
3rd Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
4th Platoon - 4 units of 4 men + 2 BTR-80
Support units - 13 men (med + supply)


The task of the Georgians was to capture the city, the task of the Russians was to liberate it. On the one hand, I was tempted to say that there were some objectives outside of the city, such as the surrounding heights. But upon a closer examination of the map, I found that it was mostly flat. There were no objectives outside the city, except for those of military necessity, but I'm not finding any. If you are - let me know, and we can take a look, and get advice from the WinSPMBT community if the objectives are valuable enough. The main objective should definetely be the Capitol Building, Ossetia's "White House" if you will, where some of the government was still located when the fighting began.

Just think of it as a mini-Stalingrad.

Re: Ossetian War Scenario - Info + Help Request
 

I'm a bit confused as to the actual layout of the game map. :)

Basically do you want a 200x160 urban map based on Thiskinvali or a map encompassing most of Ossetia..., shrunk to fit 200x160 size...