Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

The same with kings constantly stepping in and doing the work of their minions.

OffT, I still wanted to say this:
About the Communions thread. It was made clear on page 1 that it was an ironic thread. You cannot get more clearer than: "You guys missed the irony and thought this was a serious post.
... [drivel removed] ... you might want to check out other threads about user Sombre."

And if the mods want people to "make their own conclusions", please just post the PM's made between Sombre and the mods. It would clear up a lot. Probably prove that the Sombre camp isn't totally on the side of right. (As I still think that Sombre's pms where not all butterflies and sunshine, and if it was. Just saying "oops, we overreacted" is possible. People make mistakes).

But currently all that is being done is showing only one point of the argument. The (arguably bad for the Sombre camp) communions thread is revived. But the whole PM and "we have been watching him for some time" stuff is not. Bit Hypocritical. Either do nothing about the whole problem, and don't release any more details (as promised by Annette at first). Or provide transparency in this issue.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

'But....But... I'd have to prove them guilty first ? How unpractical...'

Henri the eigth, about his wives.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Im not exactly sure of the numbers here.
I highly expect that no one is going to enter these threads jumping up and down doing the happy dance over someone being banned. In fact, I dont remember that ever happening with any ban. On the other hand, I wouldnt necessarily chalk up the lack of comment by most of the forum to mean they are unhappy with what happened. If anything, I think it might be more reasonable to consider the silent majority to be silent for a reason.

We arent going to know how often or what level of complaints Shrapnel gets about someone. We arent going to know why they do things. This is not unusual here. Its not unusual on any corporate server.

If you want a way to move on, then just accept that Shrapnel has an idea of what type of forums they want. And they have that right. Its their forums, on their machines, being offered for free. You have a right to disagree (someplace else), or you can join the ones in question who appear to have voluntarily called down punishments on themselves.

Over the last year Ive been tempted to give up and I have often considered just creating my own forum on Dom3Minions. But we all know how that goes. I talk about it, Sombre comments on my talking about it, then Sombre actually does it. And.... here we are again. Sombre actually did what I just thought about. I wish both the old forum (here) and the new forum (there) well in their endeavors.

Hopefully this doesnt violate my NAP with Shrapnel

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

@Gandalf : Uh, is all this about my jokes ? Not like if I was militating for the ones or the others(but it is very true I find all this fuss very funny). But I'm not a very educated or serious person, mind you.

But you're very right, everyone should respect our hosts decision. I'll try to refrain from 'funny' interventions in the future, concerning subjects that most consider very serious indeed.

PS : Oh yeah, the stuff about salt on fresh wounds... Got it now. Hope we'll all laugth about it in near future.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Sure, it's Shrapnel's forum, and they can do what they want. But they should try to hold themselves to a higher standard. And it would be in their own self interest to do so, as it would look more professional.

Me, I'm just some guy. On the internet, you might expect a modicum of decency out of me. But maybe, as some guy, I'm a joker, or I get easily offended, or I think I know a lot. Some guys can often be irritating. But again, I think moderators for a business web site should not be acting like some guy. And because they have power, they should be extra careful about acting like just some guy. Because they're not - they have power, and they represent an institution. They should be better than that.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Que? Care to explain?

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

It’s a bit distressing how many people seem to think “they’re the rules, so you have to follow them”. “The rules” are just something somebody with some form of power wants you to do. In human interaction there are many forms of power and “the authorities” only wield the most obvious and blunt. Community leaders also wield a form of power, it’s more subtle but can be just as powerful. Obviously the stakes are dramatically lower, but this is really no different than the pattern of behavior you see mirrored in the real world. People tend to riot/protest because of perceived government oppression. It’s caused by a break between “we’ve got the guns so you’re gonna do what we say for your own good” and “you are not the leaders we follow, you’re just bullies with guns”.

This whole episode doesn’t really have much to do with the specifics of he said she said, it’s really about considerable annoyance at feeling bullied. “The Rules” conflicted with the unspoken and informal rules of the community. “Don’t break the rules unless you want the consequences of doing so” cuts both ways…it’s just community rules are enforced by a kind of group persona and aren’t clearly listed anywhere. The rule that was broken by the admins was “thou shall not do things whose net effect is to remove value from the community” as well as “treat people with the respect that they’ve earned”. The admins presumably think they violated neither of these things, but the problem is that between having hidden exchanges/private messages as well as just different perspectives the feeling by those who are angry is that they did. Then compounded it by saying “well, that’s just the way it is because I said so”.

Sure, the powers that be have the power of force, but you can’t build/maintain a community with that. Presumably that’s the entire purpose for having these forums so there are limits to what they can do short of pulling the plug and saying screw the whole thing. I doubt they’d admit it, but I think that if it was possible to secretly go back and undo this whole affair that would be a no brainer. You just can’t do the equivalent of tossing a community leader in a jail with no (public) trial without expecting the equivalent of riots/protests and considerable collateral damage. That’s the consequence of this being a very mature community that’s developed over a considerable time. I guess we’ll see now how bad the fallout damage is.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Sombre his not seemingly opposed to the use of brute force, if you read carefully his interventions. At least some of them are a little brutal.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Just putting it in Dom terms. Anyone who has been slapped here basically ends up with a Non-Aggression Pact of some sort. Its fairly common as part of the process here to get a small lecture where you promise not to do it again, or not to bait/troll that person again, or not to incite mutiny/riots again. Ive just always jokingly referred to mine as a NAP like we have in the game. (altho referring to the NAP is in itself kindof a slight violation of the NAP)

We dont know of course since Shrapnel does not make such things public. But I think its fairly obvious that some of the people we are talking about had ups and downs in their attitudes here which made me highly suspect that they also were operating under a NAP with Shrapnel and so I purposely tried to avoid making it any harder on them.

@TwoBits
I disagree. I disagree that they should because I disagree that they did not do it in the first place. Nor that there would be any huge benefit in it. I recognize your opinions in the matter but I wouldnt necessarily say they should be stated as facts as though the entire forum would see it that way. If this bothers you alot I will point to the title beneath my avatar. I disagree with that also but it has helped in the past with discussions like this to note who has what titles.
:)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Having been a bystander through most of this and owner of these forums, here is my take.

Having talked to everyone involved I can assure you that Shrapnel Games, the admins and the moderators feel the same way.

Agreed, but bluntness is so easily misinterpreted. In the process of expressing their opinions with bluntness they ran people (mainly new members, but also some regulars) off of these forums. This is not the way Shrapnel Games wants these forums to operate. And the escalating bluntness was where we drew the line.

Pushing the limits - that is what we are no longer willing to tolerate. And yes, they were important to the community. And still are. They are free to continue to make mods, find a community that is willing to put up with their behavior, and support Dominions.

We said originally that we would consider having them back, but that they must follow the rules. This is the disconnect to me. Sombre was banned because he was given this choice. The moderators asked him to follow the rules and play nice. His reponse was I will continue in the way I always have and ignore your requests asking me to change my behavior.

You know. The admins and moderators just yesterday had a discussion about this. Should we have an open door policy when it comes to forum discipline? I am still of the opinion that what people say in PMs should remain private unless they give their consent. And I still believe that contacting people by PM and asking them to follow the rules is a better choice than making every instance of this public.

And once the documentation is shared, there will still be two sides, as we have seem through this whole fiasco. Is it not true that whatever we shared would be open to interpretation? I think so. The ban to Sombre came because we interpreted what he said. In the last eleven years, this isn't the first time something like this has happened. We went into the ban on Sombre totally knowing that 'people would be left with a bad taste in their mouth'.

It is sad that it came to that. But predictable.

This seems to be a sticking point for alot of people. The three banned after Sombre, well they wanted to be banned and were. Temp bans only work with people who are willing to change. Sombre indicated he wouldn't change (yes, that is how we interpreted what he said). Why temp ban someone who told you he would ignore your descipline measures? To make the community feel better? See I don't believe it would have made the community any happier. After we got to the permanent ban, we would be right back here doing this anyway.

Does anything along these lines ever make a company look professional? My guess is no. But you know what? Do you really think we would be any more professional if we posted details about a users behavior that would potentially reflect negatively on him after he's been banned and not allowed to make posts in his own defense? That allowing people to run off other forum members, allowing name calling and the use of profane language, etc. is going to make us look more professional.

The bottom line. We did what we did not out of anger. Not because we disliked people. And definitly not to make people angry. We took action because we felt we had to. Every day Shrapnel Games makes decisions. Usually they are right, but sometimes they are wrong. But you know, you go into it with your eyes wide open and you live with the consequences.

Thanks for listening.