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- - Usmc oob (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=50382)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 825446)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 825441)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy1339 (Post 825433)

There were also good changes, such as that the M728's 165 mm gun actually fires HESH rounds now, but it seems like a lot of things were changed to make them less historically accurate than in previous versions.

Good point!
This is one I overlooked.
I don't have access to the exact weapon formulas used in the game, Don, Andy, what should the stats for a 165mm HESH round be?

As you say in post #9, you're the author of this OOB so you get to answer the questions. The quote in the first part acknowledges that the 165mm gun fired HESH rounds and that we have it set up as a HESH gun. This was done for winSPMBT v7 so that is a year and a half old news now and when it was changed to a HESH weapon in 2013 the specs were changed from what was there previously when it was set up as WC#7.

That said, the HESH issue is secondary to the main point of that paragraph and this is

Don

Once again I stand corrected the 165mm round is HESH.
I really need to learn to look before i type someday ... don't hold your breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 825446)

However I will confirm that some things *may* be off by a year or two as all the factors that make up picklists were taken into account. Right now the USMC picklist is the most complicated picklist in the game but it could have been at least twice the size it is now to accommodate all the little nit picking details like EXACTLY when weapons went in and out of service and the decision was made to pare it down to a more manageable size.

The first question I'd ask Sammy1339 is how long he served in the USMC and just where he " looked up " the info for the M202

Don

I'll state flat-out some things will be off by up to two years because when I did the picklists I decided that unless there was an overriding reason NONE of them would cover less then 5 years and in 90% of the cases I chose to have weapons and equipment become available early rather then late.
Most major things (tanks, aircraft, etc.) aren't available till their "proper" time-frame but a good many minor things (such as the M202) got fit in to the picklist nearest their real deployment date.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 825438)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy1339 (Post 825433)

- Although it's only cosmetic, the ordinary M16 rifle (used from 1962-1967) has disappeared, being replaced by the M16A1/A2. There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16, which is definitely not accurate. The M16 was gradually phased in.

- I find it really weird that all M16-equipped rifle squads until 1968 (unit #369) use the Stoner 63 as a SAW. This weapon was fielded only in very limited numbers, mostly with SEALs if I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure the marines used the M60 machinegun in this role, as was the case in earlier OOB's. I've noticed there are no more infantry squads with M60's.

Since (except for one experimental battalion) the USMC as a whole didn't adopt the M16 until 1967 there was no real reason to include the M16/AR15 as opposed to the M16A1.

If you look at the OOB you see the M16 appearing as early as 1963 (unit# 369) and the M14 around until 1970 (unit# 358).

I'm going to jump in here one last time then let Suhiir handle this.

It all very well to ***** about changes to the OOBs ( it's almost a "sport" played better by some than others........ ) but it does nothing for your credibility to complain about something when 2 MINUTES ( max ) with the tools we provide disprove a "theory". Case in point

Quote:

.......There's also an instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16

:doh:

Suhiir has addressed this but I will follow up on it..........maybe some of you reading this will learn something and not make the same mistake

-Open up MOBHack

- Click on "File" at the top left

- When the menu opens up click on " Database check utilities"

- Click on the "Weapons check" tab

- Find "M14 Rifle" ( weapon 14 )......... and this is what you will see

users of weapon ID 7 M14 Rifle:
243 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
328 - Recon Scouts - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 07/057 to 08/065
352 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 07/057 to 08/065
358 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
359 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
361 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
371 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
378 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
381 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
391 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
451 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
455 - Shelter Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
541 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
678 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
745 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 07/062 to 05/068
760 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
767 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
785 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
811 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
812 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
826 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/061
836 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/062 to 12/070
892 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066
976 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 07/058 to 12/066

and from that it can be clearly seen that the M14 is finally phased out at the end of 1970 in this OOB and that there are NOT ONE but NINE units that carry that weapon until the end of 1970

Then we look at the M16A1/A2 Rifle ( weapon #8 ) and find this:

users of weapon ID 8 M16A1/A2 Rifle:
223 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/090
224 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/074
231 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/091 to 12/094
241 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
244 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/075
245 - MEU HQ - uClass 055 : slot 1 - Available 01/076 to 12/085
308 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/095 to 12/120
327 - Recon Sct/Engr - uClass 141 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
331 - Recon FO/FAC - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/090 to 03/103
333 - Recon Engr Sec - uClass 141 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
338 - Recon FO/FAC - uClass 229 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/089
341 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/097
346 - Recon Team - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
347 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 01/098 to 03/103
350 - Recon Team - uClass 101 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
351 - Recon Team - uClass 098 : slot 1 - Available 09/065 to 12/074
362 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
363 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
364 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
369 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
372 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
379 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
382 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
383 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
384 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
386 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
387 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 1 - Available 04/103 to 12/105
389 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 1 - Available 04/103 to 12/105
392 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
393 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
394 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
397 - USMC Scout Team - uClass 241 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
452 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
453 - Bunker Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
456 - Shelter Bunker - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/105
542 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
543 - Foxholes MMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
679 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
680 - Bunker HMG - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
732 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/091 to 03/103
735 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 07/064 to 12/071
736 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/080
737 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/081 to 12/085
738 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/090
740 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 07/064 to 12/071
741 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/080
742 - SEAL Squad - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/081 to 12/085
743 - SEAL Fire Team - uClass 145 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
746 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 06/068 to 12/085
747 - SEAL Pathfinder - uClass 088 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
761 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
762 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
763 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
764 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105
768 - USMC Rifle Sqd - uClass 110 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
789 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
790 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
791 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
806 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
807 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
813 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
814 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
816 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
821 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
824 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
827 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
829 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
830 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/103 to 12/105
833 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/063 to 12/067
834 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
835 - USMC Fire Team - uClass 112 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/102
893 - USMC Fwd Obsr - uClass 243 : slot 1 - Available 01/075 to 12/085
977 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
978 - Foxholes Squad - uClass 000 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 12/105

We have established that the M14 was phased out in this OOB at the end of 1970 and if we carefully count the number of units that carry the M16 before that time you will find two dozen units with the rifle squads accounting for 2 ( 369 - Available 01/063 to 12/067 and 362 - Available 01/067 to 12/071

The tools to check these things are included with the game package and if they are used a lot of questions and misunderstandings can be answered / avoided, such as a "instantaneous change from the M14 to the M16"

Then there are the flamethrowers

users of weapon ID 119 Flamethrower:
111 - Flamethrower - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/046 to 12/066
121 - Flamethrower - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/072
377 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/046 to 06/058
378 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
380 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/046 to 06/058
381 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 07/058 to 12/070
407 - Assault Sec - uClass 040 : slot 2 - Available 01/046 to 12/049
408 - Assault Sec - uClass 040 : slot 2 - Available 01/050 to 06/058
409 - Flame/Demo Tm - uClass 244 : slot 1 - Available 01/065 to 12/066

and the M202

users of weapon ID 239 66mm Flame Rckt:
277 - M202 FlashTeam - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
379 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/067 to 12/085
382 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/067 to 12/071
383 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/072 to 12/085
384 - USMC Engr Sqd - uClass 171 : slot 3 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
386 - USMC Engr Team - uClass 020 : slot 3 - Available 01/086 to 03/103
418 - Flame/Demo Tm - uClass 244 : slot 1 - Available 01/067 to 12/074
889 - M202 FlashTeam - uClass 195 : slot 1 - Available 01/086 to 03/103

66mm Flame Rckt use starts the beginning of 1967 and the infantry flamethrower ends service at the end of 1972 so the assertion that

Quote:

Flamethrowers also disappear at the same time, which is incorrect.

is indeed INCORRECT as the flamethrowers and M202 co-exist for five years in this OOB and there is NO change in the flamethrower end date from the previous version of the USMC OOB ( unit 121 )

As to the date the USMC started using the 66mm Flame Rckt......... I'll let Suhiir deal with that. The previous version of the USMC started those in 1973

Don

Clearly I overstated my position, and I didn't realize that there was a conscious decision to fudge dates for the sake of simplicity. Thanks for all the attention you guys have given this. I have to withdraw most of my complaints (although when I referred to instantaneous changes of weapons, I meant for specific units, not all units. But this is a minor point anyway.)

I'd still like to tweak the availability of the M202, pushing its introduction up to 1969 and allowing some of the flamethrower-equipped units to expire later. Even though it's a light weapon I don't think it's that minor a thing: my experience from playing these couple scenarios was that you could take a platoon of unit 382, which has twelve shots of the rockets, and just spray them blindly into the jungle with z-fire, causing extremely high suppression that often makes enemy infantry rout without you ever having seen them, and then still have enough left to bust spider holes and whatnot. It's a pretty enormous improvement over committing half your company to suppressive fire so that you can march a 4-shot flamethrower unit up to 50 meter range under smoke cover, and about a third of the time watch it die instantly (or vainly try to "assault" the hole instead of firing its weapon - but that's a different issue.)

Although it's not really important or a matter of accuracy I'd also like to suggest a small change to the M50 Ontos. The platoon should be divided into two sections, one with three and one with two (and there is already a two-member Ontos section in the OOB.) I'd also really like to see a CS version with more HE rounds, which would better reflect its (de facto) role in Vietnam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy1339 (Post 825454)

...(although when I referred to instantaneous changes of weapons, I meant for specific units, not all units. But this is a minor point anyway.)

There is no way weapon changes for specific units can't be "instantaneous".
Each unit is assigned a "Unit Class", given weapons, and start/end dates (X1 and X2) when it's created. When date X1 comes up that unit, with those weapons becomes available, and on date X2 it ceases to exist.
If there happen to be multiple units, with different weapons, and the exact same "unit Class" and who's start/end date overlap X1 or X2 then you have a choice as to which weapons to use.

You seem to be under the impression weapons are given employment dates and units select the weapons they use. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy1339 (Post 825454)

I'd still like to tweak the availability of the M202, pushing its introduction up to 1969 and allowing some of the flamethrower-equipped units to expire later. Even though it's a light weapon I don't think it's that minor a thing: my experience from playing these couple scenarios was that you could take a platoon of unit 382, which has twelve shots of the rockets, and just spray them blindly into the jungle with z-fire, causing extremely high suppression that often makes enemy infantry rout without you ever having seen them, and then still have enough left to bust spider holes and whatnot. It's a pretty enormous improvement over committing half your company to suppressive fire so that you can march a 4-shot flamethrower unit up to 50 meter range under smoke cover, and about a third of the time watch it die instantly (or vainly try to "assault" the hole instead of firing its weapon - but that's a different issue.)

While the M202 could (and probably should, I'll look into how difficult that will be) be changed to an introduction date of 01/69 that's ONLY because there just happens to be a new picklist that starts at that date - doing the Vietnam units/picklist was the hardest part of the OOB rebuild.

I have to wonder about something.
If players choose to ignore real-world OOBs and take only the "best" possible units for a scenario (i.e. the famous "Tanks and Snipers" gameplay) What can be done on our end about it?
You are apparently using a LOT more M202s then would ever exist in an infantry company/battalion size formation and say the game is broken because you can do so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammy1339 (Post 825454)

Although it's not really important or a matter of accuracy I'd also like to suggest a small change to the M50 Ontos. The platoon should be divided into two sections, one with three and one with two (and there is already a two-member Ontos section in the OOB.) I'd also really like to see a CS version with more HE rounds, which would better reflect its (de facto) role in Vietnam.

While a CS version of the Ontos could be done (and was SERIOUSLY considered) for the reasons you state again it cames back to simplicity.
We have a single specific vehicle with a limited deployment history and an intended role. As it just so happens the battles in one specific part of the world have no real use for a vehicle with that role BUT by changing the ammo loadout of the vehicle it goes from nearly useless to fairly useful (I say "fairly" because the on-board ammo supply of the Ontos is very limited). The total number of units, covering all dates from 01/46 to 12/20 is limited to 999.
Is this vehicle, with that ammo loadout critical the the battles in that part of the world?
My answer was, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 825461)

FWIW--------- http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/m202.htm

Quote:

The M202 series of launchers was developed in the late 1960s as a replacement for the individual portable flamethrower in the US Army. The weapon was designed to provide the infantryman with a better means of neutralizing or destroying enemy gun emplacements and fortified positions. Initially, the complete system consisting of the XM202 launcher and a clip of 4 XM74 rockets, plus other associated equipment and additional ammunition, was designated as the XM191 Multi-Shot Portable Flame Weapon (MPFW). The US Army and the US Marine Corps both evaluated the XM191 system, including field testing in Southeast Asia by the USMC between July and October 1969. The decision to develop additional types of rockets, including the M96 rocket, led to the dropping of the complete system designation XM191 and the usage of the launcher designation and specific rocket designations separately.

Turns out the M202 issue was far easier to solve then I'd hoped.

Unit#277 M202 FlashTeam - Dates 08/69-12/85
Unit#379 USMC Engr Team - Dates 08/69-12/85
Unit#382 USMC Engr Sqd - Dates 08/69-12/71
Unit#409 Flame/Demo Tm - Dates 01/65-07/69
Unit#418 Flame/Demo Tm - Dates 08/69-12/74

Feel free to make these changes to your OOB.
I'll add them to the next official OOB revision/correction suggestions list I submit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 825463)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhiir (Post 825461)

FWIW--------- http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/m202.htm

Quote:

Yep, quoted that myself.
Too bad I didn't find it when I was doing the OOB revision.
Thanks Don!