Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

That is all fine. It still does not have anything to do with telekinesis, which is a projection of force powered by mental (psionic) energy from the being doing the telekinesis.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Explain why the shields could block mental force, then. (hell, explain why they could block -any- force, aside from maybe electromagnetic)

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the context, it would appear that Pax is suggesting that in his view of how the currently commonly considered imaginary field of telekenesis, the energy generated by the psis' is transmitted through a mechanism that skips distances and interviening matter/energy/whatever in a similar manner to quantum tunneling or the unknown mechanism of quantum pairings; thus skipping shields.

Likewise, from the context it would appear that you are suggesting that in your view of how the currently commonly considered imaginary field of telekenesis, the energy generated by the psis' is transmitted through a mechanism that does not skip distances and interviening matter/energy/whatever.

As the existance of telekenesis is currently open to debate, and thus the mechanism hasn't been studied (assuming that it exists in the first place in order to have a mechanisim) and is thus unknown, debating based on realism wether or not this possibly nonexistant force could get through a shield that is currently only hypothesized is laughable. Or, as Geo put it:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So ... you have proof of this "fact", perhaps ... ? You can describe to us the precise energy type, the mechanics of the resultant wave form, it's mechanism of generation, and the physics and mechanics of it's propagation through matter, EM fields, and/or vacuum? Maybe even shed some light on the biological and/or technological structures neccessary to generate such effects and waveforms, complete with working schematics?

If so, then please, do tell ...

Prove to us that quantum tunelling is not as equally valid for energy as it is for matter. Then prove that the energy wave-form(s) associated with the use of telekinetic or psychokinetic events does not, and can not, utilise quantum tunnelling, or any similar phenomenon.

Of course, you can't. I've refuted your claim that only magic can allow such a thing to happen, with real-world current-technology examples of actual, hard science.

You are relying solely on newtonian physics for your argument; I am delving into the possibilities inherent in quantum physics for mine. Therein lies the downfall of your argument: quantum physics always trumps newtonian physics. The only factor they have in common would be, AFAIK, the First Law of Thermodynamics.

It is IMO entirely feasible, and scientifically possible, that the TKProjector randomly re-balances kinetic energy in the target -- taking some FROM one place, and adding it TO another place -- and that several aspects of quantum mechanics governs the means and methods by which this is acomplished.

I have therefor posited that such is the mechanism by which telekinesis works, ergo, shields are about as useful against a powerful (or in this case, artificial and/or artificially amplified) telekinetic as a papier-mache hull would be against a Shard Cannon X. Which is to say, not at all.

So, I say again -- if you dislike it this much, why not simply not play this particular mod ... ?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, and I'm working form half-remembered stuff here, but I remember one of the Voyager satellites had to have several course corrections after bouncing off of Jupiter's EM field. Sunward, the planets' EM fields are compressed by the constant pressure of the solar wind; my understanding is, this creates areas of exceptionally strong EM flux, in layers of "shells", around the planets.

In the case of a giant like Jupiter, these can have a very real effect on even relatively-massive physical objects. At least twice, perhaps more often, that Voyager satellite I mentioned had it's course deflected away from Jupiter, neccessitating several repeated tries to cross that point in Jupiter's EM field before the flyby could be managed.

So in the least, it's possible for an EM-based field to deflect energy and/or physical objects ... if the field is strong enough, and it's density is somehow compressed sufficiently.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly, unequivocably, and precisely correct.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I knew this thread had too many Posts to be a mod or PBW discussion anymore. Some of you guys jump topics more than Cecilia jumps hippies.

[edit: to != too]

[ July 28, 2003, 18:37: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fyron, rather then just restating your original objections, why not actually address the comments made by others to refute your statements? Answer then my previous question.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you aren't going to at least attempt to back up your objections to Pax's mod with some reasonable explanations, please don't continue to clutter up the thread with argumentative and nonsensical Posts. People are getting a little tired of it.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I can get from his comments is that the shields aren't blocking the mental energy, but the physical force being manifested by the mental energy. And in a limited way this does make some sense. For example, if I were trying to argue Fyron's point for him I would suggest the following:

Geoschmo speaking for Fyron based on his comments...The telekinesis weapon can simply be thought of as another type of energy beam weapon. Where normally you have a gun using some physical process to generate a physical stream of anti-protons or phased polarons, you have a living sentient being using mental enrgy to generate a stream of some kind of damaging force. The force that actually is created is not mental energy, it's created by mental energy, and thus shuld be blocked by shields. Unless the force is being created with some shield skipping properties, such as phased polarons, and that is not implicitly stated.

Now, the glaring hole in the logic of the above statement is that the physical force being created from mental energy has to start somewhere. If we assume it starts from the point of the being with the mental energy, then reasonably as Fyron says it would be blocked by shields. However if this were the case it would also reasonably be blocked by the inner hull of the ship the being is sitting in and punch a hole in it equivalent to it's destructive force on teh way out. Your ship would take as much damage as the enemies, and your psychics would be vented into space every time they used their powers. The three ways to get around this are to say that
1. The psychic is strapped to the hull. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
2. The telekinetic projector component that is installed on the ship is some kind of special material that allows physical forces to pass through it without damaging it, but only in one direction. (out)
3. The mental force does not actually create the physical force at the point of the psychic, but at some other point along the target line between the psychic and teh target.

Fyron either believes 2, or 3 and makes the assumption that the point the mental energy creates the physical force is outside of the targets shielding. Or he believes some other process is at work that I have not considered and he has yet to explain it to us.

If he believes 3 he has not explained why it is unreasonable to assume the mental energy cretaes the physical force at the point of the target, underneath the tragets shielding.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

But why we assune you are trying to directly push enemy ship ? Psycic can arguable focus on the bulet or a handfull of anti protons and accelerate them toward enemy ! The reason may be the short range of telekinetic power. It can easily go down witha distance.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Oleg's point about mental powers being limited in range is quite valid...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lets see... projects a battering ram of telekinetic force... This means that the projector projects the force, not some sort of mentalic wave that moves to the ship which projects the force. Force is most certainly stopped by the shields, as evidenced by most other weapons.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It sort of is - again, you're discussing theoretical technology based on something that is currently commonly considered imaginary. The question of "is it valid, or not?" depends on which piece of fiction one looks at. For some, it is; for others, it isn't. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lets see... projects a battering ram of telekinetic force... This means that the projector projects the force, not some sort of mentalic wave that moves to the ship which projects the force. Force is most certainly stopped by the shields, as evidenced by most other weapons.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At worst, that just means he needs to change the description for his mod. However, it doesn't say where the battering ram starts. Unless shields hug the hull perfectly, there's no particular reason why the force can't form inside the target's shields to batter at the hull.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

The projector projects the battering ram. It obviously starts at the projector.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not at all - a projecter, pretty much by definition, produces something at a distant locale.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

No. It produces it immediately, and projects it to a distant locale. A movie projector creates the patterns of light and then projects those patterns accross the intervening space to the screen. It does not create the patterns of light at the screen. This can be seen by moving something in the way, which blocks the path of the light, and so it does not appear on the screen.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, but a movie projector doesn't exactly produce patterns of light, it produces images; most modern projectors must be adjusted for the distance to the screen in order for the image to form properly. The image doesn't form until the pattern of light hits a screen. The ability to stop images from forming properly is a side effect of the principals modern movie projectors run on, not something inherent in the concept of a projector. A telekenetic projector would (obviously) run on different principals. As such equipment is currently fictional, and the principles it would hypothetically run on are unknown if they exist, one can't say with certainty that a different currently fictional piece of equipment (shields) would stop those hypothesised principles from performing their task. If Pax wants the TK Projectors in his fiction to skip shields, they can.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

The movie projector creates patterns of light. Whether those patterns of light form (meaningful) images or not is not determined by the projector itself, but by the position of the screen and the optical receivers of the veiwers.

Again, the TKP specifically states that it creates a battering ram of force and projects it to the target.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps for movie projectors, sure. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it says:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The two are a bit different; yours specifies where the force forms to an extent; the original does not.

However, it's interesting how all you debate against is the specifics of how I defined a movie projector, while not addressing:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For that matter, you have dropped other sub-threads of this discussion as well:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It sort of is - again, you're discussing theoretical technology based on something that is currently commonly considered imaginary. The question of "is it valid, or not?" depends on which piece of fiction one looks at. For some, it is; for others, it isn't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Likewise, you seem to have dropped Geo's points (reply 56) on the holes in not skipping things would cause problems (although that is related to my comments on Oleg's point), and Geo's point on where the force originates once past the inital breach of physics (reply 55 and 47). Further, you seem to have neglected commenting on something else I said "At worst, that just means he needs to change the description for his mod." (referring, of course, to the description for the TK projector. With that possibility open, your arguments based on the TK projector's description don't hold much water.)

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Jack, don't start this garbage again. My Posts implicitly responded to Geo's and yours. Not every sub thread needed to be responded to.

The component description says it projects a battering ram of force, which means it creates that bettering ram and then sends it off to the target. I am going to stop going around in circles and repeating myself, as it is getting tiring. If you do not want to see my point, that is your problem, not mine.

[ July 28, 2003, 21:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And now you are resorting to insults? Interesting. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, you don't implicitly respond to them. For example, you again refer to the description of the component, while I had already said "At worst, that just means he needs to change the description for his mod." While that is just one I dig up as an example, you haven't addressed it at all. The others I listed a post or two ago haven't been addressed either. You may think you have, but you haven't.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Go read Pax's thread on his small ship mod...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ July 28, 2003, 21:45: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Ok Jack, appears that Fyron is agreeing with you in this case. Since both of you are of the opinion that a simple fix is to change the description of the component.

This horse is dead, we are making glue.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, so you responded in a different thread, and expected me to follow your jump? Strange. Ah well, at least we agree on a possible solution. That works for me.

Hmm, I see Geo posted before I could respond. Ah well.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

So. Back to the original subject.

If one is simply cutting out anything above Frigate or Destroyer size, that means much of stellar manipulation will be gone, too.

As well, the Ship Construction tech would need to be rebalanced to reflect the shorter track it's on, and the relatively-larger impact a single level of it can have on a game. Base construction too, since you don't really want 1500kT bases facing fleets of 200kT-300kT ships ... or do you?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I think he did want 1500 (and 2500) kT bases against 200 kT ships. It might not be that great of and idea though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then you should extend the same courtesy to others and take the current discussion elsewhere as well. It certainly is not what I started this thread to discuss.

Also, to whomever changed the title of my post: that was very crass.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Slick, you never made a request to move the discussion. That is the difference here. Had you requested it, I would have happily obliged. Topic drift is the norm, you know.

[ July 28, 2003, 22:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I am requesting it.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then you should extend the same courtesy to others and take the current discussion elsewhere as well. It certainly is not what I started this thread to discuss.

Also, to whomever changed the title of my post: that was very crass.

Slick.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, that wasn't meant to be crass. We do that sometimes when topics drift severly from their original subject so that when people walk into them expecting to discuss the topic stated in the title they aren't totally confused. It's a moderator thing. No offense was intended.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Slick, the discussion is over, so... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I have decided to go ahead and give this idea a try. The game is up on PBW waiting for players.

Attack of the Ankle Biters
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

So everybody join the game, and maybe if we actually talk about the game for a while in this thread Slick won't be able to fight the urge to join the game himself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif You dirty guy! I promised myself I wouldn't play this game due to RL, and now it looks like you are gonna force me. GRRR!!! I'll play on one condition not mentioned in your setup: if the turn length is 48 hrs (or more) I'll play. There, are you happy??!! You made me do it. I can't believe you made me do it! In fairness to the other players getting my turns in on time, I'd need the 48 hrs occasionally. On a normal turn, I could get them in at least daily, though.

You twisted, evil, manipulating, ...well actually pretty super guy...

What say you?

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

You already set it up for 48 hrs!!!!

You dirty, rotten, sneaky...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

*trots off to create his empire*

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Great idea!

Count me in. The real challenge is working through various racial techs to work out the impact of only having little ships... sounds of deep pondering.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

3 in a row. Not like me at all. Needless to say that I haven't played this type of game yet, and this is not a complaint, but I think the game will be ruled by Transport Carriers. We'll see how it actually turns out, but I think everyone will gravitate to fighters due to the cargo capacity of the transports. Either way it will be fun and a learning experience.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Just signed up, is Intel going to allowed or not?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, well I can run some tests and see how they stack up. It's only room for three more launch bays over a frigate and it's slower becasue of the engine limit. I am thinking a couple dozen frigate wraships with one PDC each ought to be able to handle a large number of fighter. But I could be wrong. We could limit people to small fighters as well if we think they are going to dominate that badly. But I don't know. I could be wrong of course but fighters are just so suceptable to PDC, I just can't imagine them dominating anything. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hadn't planned on taking out intel. At this point it's in. That could change before game start but if it does I will give you an opportunity to adjust your empire file of course.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I'll probably join tonight if that's ok. This sounds like it will be an interesting game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No problem. I have it set for 20 players at the moment, although I likely wont wait for 20. We'll leave it open a few days. I only really want people that are interested in the idea and will stick with it so I am not going to beat the bushes to drum up players or anything.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

So as it stands, the restrictions will be per gentleman's agreement? I have no problem with that.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Would it be too much trouble to quick-n-dirty mod that? I'm asking because I really don't know.

I'll join for sure if the restrictions are firmed up, but I'll probably join anyway.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the controlling factor here will be people's willingness to use a mod. I have no problem setting one up, the changes involved are simple. And I know the guy who put's them on PBW. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But if using a mod means we turn off some people that don't like using mods we can try to do it as a GA. But if anyone misses a bunch of turns the AI is going to screw things up a bit.

By the way I ran some tests of transport carriers. One transport with five engines and all bay I's can hold 14 small fighters or 8 large fighters. Two frigates with two DUC V's, one PDC V, one combat sensor and one ecm each can deal with 14 small fighters with DUC 3's with little or no damage to the Frigates. 8 large fighters with more DUC 3's and combat sensors and ecm can seriuosly damage or kill one of the frigates, but the second one still gets them and the carrier. And though the maintenance on a transport carrier is a little lower then two frigates, the cost and time to build and collect the fighters should offset that.

With better fighter bays you could cram more fighters on, or someone might be able to design a slightly better fighter then I can. But the difference if any will be one of a minor degree I think. And facing a fighter heavy race a player could always throw a few fighter killer frigates in each fleet with fewer guns and more PDC.

So I think unless someone comes up with some factor I am missing we are safe with transports in the game. Fighters will be more of a factor then they are in the regular game, but shouldn't dominate.

Geoschmo

[ July 29, 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Well, as others might remember, I'm one not prone to mods. So, I'd prefer the gentleman's agreement. After all, I think all the ship discussions are verifiable during play. So, unless I'm overlooking something, ungentlemanly people can be caught.

As to AI doing something if a turn is missed, that's the player's loss. I.e., if the AI researched destroyers, just don't build one. IF the AI later builds a destroyer, you must scrap it. If one misses so many turns that the AI researches, builds and moves a destroyer into play, THAT player shouldn't be playing any more anyway (IMHO). If a player drops, can't the position be "scrapped"?

Finally, I'd suggest limiting fighters to smalls. Bad enough they are around 1/3 the size of a frigate already.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I wouldn't object to that if everyone thinks it's a good idea. But actually a small fighter is less then a tenth of the size of a frigate (15Kt). Large fighter is only an eigth the size (25Kt). Are you thinking of drones maybe? Small ones are half the size of a frigate. And the large ones are almost as big as the frigate, and no maintenance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif That's why I felt it prudent to limit them to small only.

The platforms and bases I thought should be limited because of the mounts that the larger sizes get. Too powerful for 200Kt ships to face I believe.

The medium and large fighters don't get mounts, and aren't so big that I think they are a problem. But if everyone wants them out that is fine too.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I wouldn't object to that if everyone thinks it's a good idea. But actually a small fighter is less then a tenth of the size of a frigate (15Kt). Large fighter is only an eigth the size (25Kt). Are you thinking of drones maybe? Small ones are half the size of a frigate. And the large ones are almost as big as the frigate, and no maintenance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif That's why I felt it prudent to limit them to small only.

The platforms and bases I thought should be limited because of the mounts that the larger sizes get. Too powerful for 200Kt ships to face I believe.

The medium and large fighters don't get mounts, and aren't so big that I think they are a problem. But if everyone wants them out that is fine too.

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I'm almost ashamed of what weight unit I was thinking when I wrote that (well, if you insist...a satellite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif )

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I considered limiting sattelites, but decided against it. They medium and large ones do have mounts, but not even as good as the small WP and base mounts. And even the large ones aren't that big. Plus since there is no way to build bases on warp points anymore, someone may want to use some sats there for defense. But if people think we should limit the sats I don't have a problem doing it. I am open to suggestions for limiting more stuff. I just don't want to get into allowing more stuff as that gets away from the original idea IMHO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Geoschmo

[ July 29, 2003, 18:39: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

If everyone uses the None AI type, then there should not be a problem with missing turns and the AI screwing things up. It won't design or build ships, or do research. Very simple solution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or they can just check the box in the minister screen that AI should not make changes during simultaneous games. I have been getting away from telling people to use the "None" files since the NoAI mod is now obsolete.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Is there now a firm NO on the whole 'mod' question?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I see this game as much a research project as for fun. I also have no problems with majority decision. I vote for no limits on fighters.

Slick.