Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The NERC said the latter, I think.

[ August 18, 2003, 03:17: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Hmm, conflicting reasons being offered as to the cause eh? How long before the wacko conspiracy theories start to emerge? Anyone seen any already?

IE aliens zapped the power grid, the government was testing a new anti-alien superweapon, alien islamic fundamentalist terrorist warlocks cast a spell on the power station etc etc etc...

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Oh the conspiracy theorists and others started up as soon as the lights went out. Various Posts to Usenet started claiming terrorist action within a few hours, and that's probably why the strong denials of terrorism came out so quickly from the govt. And now people are saying it was necessary to cover for some 'secret' govt. project and things like that. Shrug... this is business as usual for the conspiracy theorists.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

The people in Ohio are now saying that there was a severe current flux prior to the circuit trip they suffered. According to them, it occurred repeatedly for several hours prior to the event. And they are again pointing the finger to the north. They way these guys cover their tails, they must have been politicians in their Last jobs.

Personally, I think Tesco was trying to bring his weapons platform on line and the phased polaron beam took down the grid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ August 18, 2003, 12:36: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

On a totally unrelated note:

Phoenix area gas stations run dry!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Major pipeline delivering 40% of gasoline ruptured 10 days ago.
Pipeline owners are meeting with EPA to expedite paper work to allow pressure testing. It could be two weeks before pipeline opens.
Gas Trucks are tied up in 10 hour long waiting lines at overwhelemd Tuscon gas terminal.

story:
http://www.phoenix360.com/news/index.asp?did=3291

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

i had nothing to do with it.

now, bwain ovemmphh mmphh mmphh.

please disregard that Last statement. plin...er, i mean i had no idea what i was talking about.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yesterday I was eating lunch at a fast food place across the street from a station that was out of gas. While I was eating, I noticed a gas truck pulling away from the station. Then I noticed that the station already had a huge line of cars waiting to get to the pumps. I joked with my wife that people must be following the tankers around. Then, this morning on the radio I heard that a tanker driver had called in to report that he was being followed by between 20 and 30 cars.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

The sad thing is that apparently many of the people who are buying gas are just topping off, contributing to the shortage. There is actually enough gasoline, it is just hard to distribute it fast enough, and people are buying substantially more gasoline now than when there wasn't a shortage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you blame them though? I can think of a few places I'd rather be then sitting on the side of the road in the Arizona desert out of gas and roasting in 114 degree teperatures. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

To get back to energy conservation...

Brazil went through a power shortage in 2001-2002. I won't get into the causes here but the fact is that the government should have seen it coming and didn't. To their credit, once they got going they handled things quite well. One of the measures was a residential energy quota of 200 kWh per house per month, with a BIG surcharge on any power spent over that amount.

At the time, we were spending way over that, which makes no sense since it's only two people in the house. My wife went completely paranoid with the light bulbs and such, but those don't use up that much power (neither does a computer, BTW). So we took a hard look at all our appliances and discovered the following :

- We had two refrigerators but we really only used one. Pulling the plug on one of them saved us around 40 kWh/month.

- My wife drinks coffee around the clock. She had an electric percolator which she kept on all day to keep the coffe warm. Doing it the old way - heating water on the gas stove and putting the coffee in a thermos bottle - saved us 130 kWh/month.

So it turns out we were just throwing a lot of power away, every month, day in and day out, without even noticing it. And the worst thing is, we weren't using it to make our lives better in any significant way.

So am I in favor of conservation ? Sure, if you do it rationally, the sacrifice involved is minimal.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

The actual power use of appliances can be surprisingly different than you expect, but that's a real shocker. Most households that don't use electric heat (a terrible waste of electricity, btw) spend the most on refrigerators as I recall. Lights may not use much individually but add up all the lights around a house and it gets to be quite a bit. Compact flourescents are a Good Thing. But you never know when some little appliance might have a very big appettite...

130 kw a month for COFFEE!? Wow...

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

The Australian media have reported 3 different causes to the black-out.
1 - Lightening - which I think they have now ruled out.
2 - An old overgrown tree snagged a main powerlines that was sagging, which caused a cascading effect tripping the safety switches.
3 - My favourite. A yet unknown terrorist group brain washed a squad of squirrels into making a suicide runs onto the major power lines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Woooww. I'm impressed. If your wife drinks coffee around the clock, isn't she hyped all the time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Politics happens in more jobs than just government--and it seems more vicious the smaller the stakes, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

200 kwh per month.

I think i could do it. Barely though. I average 15 kwh per day right now.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Maybe the U.S. should consider invading itself.

The billions spent fixing Iraq's power and water infrastructure would fix the U.S.' problems.

[ August 20, 2003, 02:57: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

I dunno... one civil war was plenty IMO. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

heh.. Canada could use a civil war.

I mean, we have had one.

It was a bar room brawl in which the only person arrested was an american mercenery who showed up late.

Gotta love Canadians.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Others have noticed the discrepancy between foreign aid and supporting the home front. There have been some remote counties and townships, like the Key Islands in Florida, that have 'declared independence' and fired some shots in the air, then immediately surrendered and requested reconstruction aid. Then there was that West Virginia community that requested foreign aid from the Soviet Union to fix a bridge in the 1980s...

The price of ONE aircraft carrier battlegroup ($80 billion over it's full life time of operation & maintenance) would just about cover all of the bridge repairs we need in this country, for example.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Energy usage is quite different from country to country, depending on whether you use electricity for cooking, heating, A/C or water heating. For Brazil, it's a very reasonable value, I'd even say generous - we don't need heating, most houses don't have A/C and we use gas for cooking.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This sounds specific. I'm guessing it's either an inside joke or some bit of history that kids in the States missed out on. Enlighten us?

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

yea true words.

I need heating in the winter... And I try not to run the AC in the summer.

I am in the process of converting my stove/oven & washer/dryer to gas.

That will really cut the rate down.

Usually the only stuff I run at home all the time is the fridge and freezer. The Computer now I turn it off when not in use.

Other than that it is lights on at night while in the room. And the rest of the stuff only when it is being used.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This sounds specific. I'm guessing it's either an inside joke or some bit of history that kids in the States missed out on. Enlighten us?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the closed thing Canada came to a Civil war might be the Riel Rebellion. Not a whole lot bigger than a bar room brawl.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

RE: Gas supply interruption in Arizona

To help mitigate the gasoline distribution problem in Phoenix, buisness leaders in the valley are encouraging employees who can carpool, use public transportation, work flexible hours or telecommute (with agreement from his/her manager) to do so. We're also suggesting the use of Online meetings and teleconferencing in place of travel.
In a meeting yesterday at Governor Napolitano's office, businesses were briefed on the following updates:

· Testing of the repaired pipeline is beginning today, and despite an initial failure reported in the media, Kinder Morgan asserts the pipeline will be back in operation this weekend.
· If tests are successful and gasoline begins flowing, it will take several days to restore the area's supply to normal and to stem panic buying; meanwhile, efforts continue to increase incoming supply via trucks.
· The governor has requested permission from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to temporarily allow the use of more generally available fuel blends in Phoenix; in addition, long-term plans include petitioning for modification of Arizona's State Implementation Plan (SIP) for air quality and removal of the requirement that we use a "boutique" fuel blend.
· As a result of price gouging, the governor, attorney general and the state legislature will introduce anti-gouging legislation in the 2004 legislative session. Currently, there is no Arizona law regulating the price of gasoline.
· 60 - 65 percent of valley-wide gas stations are not open or operating. After refueling, gas supplies Last only five to six hours.
· The governor is requesting 60 percent of the state employees in Maricopa County to telecommute, and is requesting county and city governments do the same.


Below are some helpful resources:

· Updates on the gas supply interruption: http://www.azcentral.com.
· Governor Napolitano's updates: http://www.governor.state.az.us.
· To find gas stations, which currently are open: http://kfyi.com/main.html.
· For the best (and worst) gas prices in Arizona: http://www.arizonagasprices.com.

We appreciate everyone's effort to support our community during this period of inconvenience.

[ August 20, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

DavidG, exactly what I was refering to.
LOL

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

What I want to know about the gas situation is this:

-its claimed that the pipeline breaking is the cause of the problem, and that fixing it will resolve the problem
-it is ALSO claimed that we have the same amount of gas on hand as usual, and the problem is getting it to the stations

So how exactly will fixing a pipeline- which of course does NOT delive to individual stations- fix this situation?

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Phoenix-D

Pipelines can carry fuel more efficently over longer distances than trucks can. Think of it as a railroad carrying a lot of heavy freight to a depot. The trucks deliver the fuel from the local terminal (depot) to the local stations.

Shuttng down the pipeline will shut down the local Phoenix terminal. Now the trucks have to drive to Tuscon to pick up the same gas, but there is not as many filling (pump) spots at that terminal.

Other distributers do not have more of Phoenix's special EPA approved blend, so they are not much help.

Who ever said there is the same amount of gas as before is lying and trying to avoid a panic. There will be less than before, but it is enough to get by on, if we all conserve.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

One truck operating out of a terminal in Phoenix can service more stations in Phoneix then the same truck operating out of a terminal in Tuscon in the same amount of time. So to get the same amount of gas to the Phoenix stations you have to add a whole lot more trucks or drive teh same trucks more hours in the day. This can't be done because normally people don't have fleets of fuel trucks sitting around doing nothing, they are servicing other comunities. And since you can't add mroe hours to the day then you end up with less gas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Other gas distributers are unwilling to make Phoenix's summer blend (which contains MTBE).
If they tried they would have a problem come October 2nd when we switch to our winter blend.

The MTBE has been dropped by other states because of aquafer contamination and it is a suspected carcinagen.
Phoenix has been struggling to meet the EPA ozone requirements.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

WoW!!!
I got the Last word in!!!

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry Wardad, I can't let you get away with the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fuel supplies in the Phoenix area seem to have pretty much stabilized, with no lines and most stations having gasoline. Now if the price would drop down below $2 a gallon....

It's funny how fast the prices go up when there is a shortage (or even the slightest hint of a possible problem), and how s l o w l y they come down when there is plenty of gas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ha yea!!! Reminds me of the crap coffee crop they had in I think about 1994. Time Hortons (massive coffee chain here in Canada) prices jumped like you'd expect and then NEVER went back down. A couple years ago they raised their prices again and the were so proud of themselves that this was the first price increase thet've had for like 6 or 7 years. Gee are we supposed to be pleased that you've been over charging us for 7 years???

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Ha Ha !
We had one of those outages too here in finland, yesterday night about 20:30 local time.

I guess we just HAVE to mimic EVERYthing the americans do rofl ...

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry Wardad, I can't let you get away with the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fuel supplies in the Phoenix area seem to have pretty much stabilized, with no lines and most stations having gasoline. Now if the price would drop down below $2 a gallon....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah right... I don't see the prices dropping any time soon, at least not by a significant amount... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ August 25, 2003, 09:16: Message edited by: Xaren Hypr ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Ok, Now I have the Last word. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you trying to do turn this into on of those nonsense threads??? You know statments like that just beg people to respond. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

The Phoenix gas situation has eased.
Mostly due to a temporary measure putting aside the requirements for our unique anti-pollution summer blend.
Now many distributors can help truck in gas from many directions.
On a really sad note, the tanker drivers will be allowed to work a 70 hour week. There are still hours-per-day driving restrictions. With two drivers, and a sleeping cab, the trucks can cover a lot of ground.

We are paying a lot more now.
It may not be gouging, at least by the little guy. Truckers get paid overtime. Gas stations have fixed expenses, rent, mortgage, utilites, insurance, and were selling less of a product that cost them more.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Oh great now our gas prices are going up! Guess what they're blaming it on? It's hard to understand how a broken pipe way down there can cause our prices to go up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Oh sure David G.... you you you it's always about you!!!

One lousy pipe between Tuscon and Phoenix and you think you you you...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

LAST WOORD http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's amazing isn't it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif And even though our gas shortage is pretty much a non-issue now, one of the outlying stations that I had to stop at this morning just raised its prices by six cents a gallon (sometime within the Last 4 days). I think they realized that they could squeeze a little more out of us, since they had been at $1.999 Last week when things were bad (they are about 5 miles out of town), and the in-town stations are running between $2.069 and $2.259 for the same gas.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

That would be price gouging. I don't think there are laws against price gouging or certain banking practices to protect the consumer. I think those laws are to prevent anger mobs from lynching business owners and bankers.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

My favourite part of US gas prices is the 9/10ths cent they always tack on the end. Always 9/10ths, not ever anything else. I suppose most people just think 1.569 is 1.56, when it's really 1.57!

Then again, it's always funny to watch people who drive around looking for the best deal. "Oh, it's only $0.753/L here and $0.764/L at the other station". That's like a whole savings there of maybe $0.50 for a full tank, and to make it worse they're driving a full-size SUV!

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are no price gouging laws in AZ. That may change after this, but I think caution should be exercized in their creation, as it would be easy to create laws that would adversely affect the market-driven economy that we live by. I guess we will see what happens....

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Better a hobbled economy than a dead gas station attendant.

(Not that I think it'd get that bad, on either end.)

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Kwok, us Canadians do have one thing to thank American Commerce for.

XX.99

Ever wonder why everything has that lovely 99 cents tacked on at the end?

Same reason for the 9 tenths.

American business realised that most people see 24.99 and think "Oh wow, 24 bucks."
The AVERAGE consumer is stupid enough to think just that.

It might be a buck difference, but factor in tax (which Canada pays more of), and factor in a dollar here, a dollar there, and yet another dollar over there too.... and thats a lot of money.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Yeah, when you go to the store, there are a lot of prices like $0.99, $1.99, $99.99, and so on. Maybe we should have a 99-cent coin?

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd like a $1.06 coin to pay the 6.5% sales tax on all those $.99's.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

6.5% tax?
LUCKY BASTARD.

15% tax up here.

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

What annoys me is the dollar store that has to add on tax to make it more than a buck.

Would it kill them to actually make the price I pay an exact multiple of one dollar, when the whole store is based on that premise?

Instead of simply tossing Loonies and bills around, you have to dig in for the little coins http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Bleh.

[ August 27, 2003, 04:24: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

hey they are selling t-shirts and hats

http://www.cafeshops.com/blackoutblame

Re: Massive Power Outage
 

Actualy... you'd be supprised how many Americans dont think thats a joke.

I spent 3 months in Pennsylvania. The north eastern part of it, so I was near NY state and NJ. And you would be amazed at the amount of people I encountered in that area who viewed canada poorly, hated it, or anything in between. More than liked Canada, thats for sure.

In fact, the people I was with, yes I met them here in Toronto, but they came just for a band that was playing here, even though they hate the place.

My experiences in the US really brought my opinion of the american populace down by many many levels.

Now though, I do find people on the Interenet to be less "I'm from this country, yours sucks." Hence I can survive here happily.

And if I hear one "head flapping Canadian" comment (in reference to South Park's portrayal of canadians) I will take serious offence.