Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Woundwort, would you have by any chance a link about this assassination attempt you mentioned? I admit I never heard about this, no wonder given the location I am living in. Obviously I don't doubt your word, but I would like some details about this. Thanks in advance!

Actually, I believe Oleg was partially right. The war in Irak might have threatened the interests of an European country, France. France may have had some access to one of the pipelines in Irak, even during the economical blockage on Irak. There were some articles in France about this topic a few months ago, but of course, it would be hard to make sure of the truth beyond these articles.

About the violations of UN resolutions by Iraq: actually a few countries broke or failed to respect these resolutions more often than Iraq. So this cannot be used as a reason to explain the war , unless you would want to be involved military in other areas as well. However, these violations are not usually even considered, and few if not no action are taken in regard to these countries. It doesn't help the credibility of the UN, but this is a whole different topic.

[ December 14, 2003, 20:01: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Saddam is far and away a bigger bastard than Bin Laden. And the world is going to find out just how big of a bastard he is once the trial starts. They may not believe it, but the facts will be there.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting. Seeing as I disagree with half (or more) of the mainline Republican policies, I don't see how that is the case.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The President, that is GWB, was referring to the LACK of commitment by then President Clinton. Clinton tied the hands of the military and was not committed to the effort for which he had committed troops.

If you do not believe me, just ask any military or peace keeping officer who was there. They utterly hated Bill Clinton’s politics. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can look up the transcripts of the debate . . . and we can parse words. All I know is that GWB meant that the US should not get involved in any nation building.

What lack of commitment are you talking about - can you be more specific. Kosovo and Haiti were the only adventures that Clinton got us into and they were relative successes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">By all means look up the transcript. The lack of commitment that I am refering to is the fact that President Clinton would send troops, but the tie there hands politically so that they could do nothing to stop the atrocities they were witnessing. Again, just ask those who were there, and they will all tell you that they could have done more, but were prevented from doing so.

As far as nation building goes, Clinton did not declare war upon those nation, and did not send in troops to conquer them. With Iraq, we did conquer them, therefore under the articles of war, we must assist them in rebuilding.

Not to discount your views, but you have a lot to learn about how to communicate with poeple. You are far to argumentative and to me you appear to be out looking for a fight to justify your point of view. Just discuss the topic, don't declar war over it.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He strated this war not to free the Iraqi ppl, but for his own purposes. Why do I believe this?

1> That was not the stated goal from the start. WMD were not even the stated purpose from the start.

2>after the fall of baghdad the coalition didn't seem to give a toss about restoring order. They did nothing to stop the looting and destruction of hospitals, universities, police stations, religious buildings, ministries (oh, except the ministry of oil, that one was well guarded). They had no-one to police the streets except combat troops with absolutely no training or experience of that kind of work. I've seen footage of coalition troops 'policing' Baghdad, and believe me it's not nice.

3> Too much of the rebuilding money is being funnelled towards Bush and his cronies via Halliburton et al. It stinks. Shouldn't all those Iraqi enginneers and contractors (The ones who did an astonishing job rebuilding after the '91 war) get the jobs? It's their country, their money and their economy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The one thing ppl seem to have missed from this metaphor is that Saddam has been convicted by the legal system, put under parole and broken parole and everything else, which is fair enough, but then who goes and enforces the law? The police? No. The big, ugly, amphetamine freak down the road with the tattoos, collection of knuckledusters and (inexplicably) a slick British lawyer being used as a suppository.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I hope he also mentions who armed him to invade Iran back in the 80s... Bush and Blair are only too quick to take every opportunity to criticise him for "threatening his neighbours"

In summary:
Yes, he had to go, and yes, a war was probably the only way it was going to happen, but a honest, open war waged for the right reasons and with proper planning for what comes after.

But it's too late now, they've done it their way, and now they can deflect our attention away from the bits they don't want us to see, crow triumphantly over the rest and move onto the next one.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Uhhh, Somalia? That was such an utter debacle they made a movie about it.

Eight years of talking tough with Afganistan, and not doing anything more then lobbing an occasional cruise missle. That's exactly what people mean when they say a lack of commitment.

Haiti was a military success. How could it not be? Haiti was probably the only country in the world capable of putting up less of a fight then Grenada. But the operation was a failure in it's main objective, which was to detract attention from the Presidential daliances.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is exactly where I - and I think many other people - disagree. Remember your own words:

Quote:

We should never stand idle when human rights are being violated, and people are being appressed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a very hypocrite statement if you support actions violating human rights and oppressing people in cases where you think they are "justified". And it is a common ideology I encounter, the alleged motivation by morals, but the fact they rarely care for any other of the numerous dictatorships in the world and put their moral standards aside when it comes to their own actions.

Yes, I am glad that this dictatorship is over. But it had been possible to do it with other means. But that would have meant less profit for Haliburton etc.

Quote:

You must be speaking about the French, Germans, Russians, and those people here in the US that apposed the war.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Generalizing this way is like I would say that every war supporter is a greedy war profiteer with something like a good job at Haliburton. And this "these people enjoy human suffering" is outrageous and personally offending me.

I utterly despise people who think they are the utmost in moral authority and therefore take it as their god-given right to treat everyone having a different opinion like a piece of ****. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First, I do not believe what I said to be hipocritical. I think that you are distorting what I did say to fit your counter argument.

And I could careless if I have offended you. Your tone with me is far more offensive than anything I said. If you want to get down to brass tax over this, then what I said lacked a couple of words that would make it more politically correct for those with sensative eyes. So allow me to clarify my word as not to seem like a "moral authority" out to "treat everyone having a different opinion like a piece of ****" to use your words. (NOTE: I find your editorial comments to lack both credibility and professionalism.)

Oh kind sir, you must be speaking about those noble honest free loving French, Germans, Russians, and american people who justly opposed the vile George W. Bush and his genicidal war against the inocent and humbly kind leader of Iraq, Saddam.

How was that Roanon? Does that meet with your approval and opinion??

What I posted was no more or less right or wrong than what has been posted before by others. If you take me to task on what I say, I will do the same to you. That being said, I believe you owe me an apology.

[ December 14, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Uhhh, Somalia? That was such an utter debacle they made a movie about it.

Eight years of talking tough with Afganistan, and not doing anything more then lobbing an occasional cruise missle. That's exactly what people mean when they say a lack of commitment.

Haiti was a military success. How could it not be? Haiti was probably the only country in the world capable of putting up less of a fight then Grenada. But the operation was a failure in it's main objective, which was to detract attention from the Presidential daliances.

Geoschmo </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bush senior got us into Somalia.

[ December 14, 2003, 21:11: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

[quote]Originally posted by CNCRaymond:

Quote:

Not to discount your views, but you have a lot to learn about how to communicate with poeple. You are far to argumentative and to me you appear to be out looking for a fight to justify your point of view. Just discuss the topic, don't declar war over it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that's unfair. I've staked out a position and you merely disagree with it. When you disagree with my position it's discussion when I refute your position it's argumentative.

Still I have not attacked anyone. On the other hand you've gone out of your way twice to mention me and Fyron even called me "partisan" because he disagrees with all my postitions but of course he not a partisan - anyway Loser specifically asked for my opinions.

And yes I do believe Bush lied - no WMD have been found.

[ December 14, 2003, 21:10: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I think it was less right, but this is not the main point. You are personally attacking people just disagreeing with you and offending them. You even openly admit that you don't care if you do. There is someone here who owes some people an apology, Mr. I-am-the-moral-universe.

BTW, I do not care for political correctness. A hypocrite is a hypocrite, regardless how he puts his words. Implying I would do is another insult.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Woundwort, it seems to me that lots of people believed Iraq would be similar to Germany/Japan after WW2.

What USA really ended with is a new Liban.

Look at the facts : Kurds in the north with their own agenda. Sunnite in the center grieving for their lost power. Chia in the south who are about to be in power.

I am sorry to say so, but mark my words, the end of Saddam is not going to bring peace in Iraq. The end of Saddam is not going bring stability to this country.

But his end is going to make lots of people's sleep easier.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Your right, I have mentioned you twice, and that is because I was talking to you specifically.

I wanted to be clear that I enjoy and value opinions that differ from my own. You have a very strong sense of yours, and that is fantastic in my humble opinion. I just would enjoy reading them without all of the hostility.

Then again, I who am I to judge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You have made some excellent points and have stood your ground.

BTW, I think Geoschmo was talking about President Clinton and not GW senior. Just and FYI.

And you do remind me an awful lot of the guy I mentioned before. More power to you man. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I think it was less right, but this is not the main point. You are personally attacking people just disagreeing with you and offending them. You even openly admit that you don't care if you do. There is someone here who owes some people an apology, Mr. I-am-the-moral-universe.

BTW, I do not care for political correctness. A hypocrite is a hypocrite, regardless how he puts his words. Implying I would do is another insult. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This his how revisionist history is written. People like you twist the facts to suit your need in an effort to hide the truth of what you have said and done. In this case you claim that it was I who had insulted other people even though I have not. You insult me and then do a role reversal followed by a two step around the truth and attempt to paint your self as the innocent victim. You draw first blood by attacking me with an insult, followed by two more insults, as proof of your point of view. You then call me a hypocrite, twice, without the slightest clue as to the understanding or meaning of the word. You yield the word like a child would a toy sword but with far less skill. I shouldn't have to point out to you that what you have done, three plus times now, violates the terms of use of this forum. You can try and play the victim all you want, the truth is already known, and regardless as to whether or not you agree, you are the one in the wrong. You are the one who has been doing the insulting here, not I. You were the one to draw a conclusion and twist my words to suit your point of view. And then in defense, you insult me in an effort to add weight to your argument and then to validate what you have done, you claim that you are the victim having been offended by what I have posted. Now you're attempting to hide from your actions by playing a role reversal by posting these personally insulting accusations about me.

Like I said, you have no skill.

You see, I never attacked any one at any point. However, you did. I can quote you again if you like, but I think we have seen enough of your foul mouth for one day. And I openly admitted that I could careless if I offended you, not these “them” you speak of. And again you post a personal flame as the only defense for your position. I believe you now owe me two apologies.

And the Last time I looked, the “them” you speak of, had not appointed you their leader. So perhaps you should not speak for “them” any more.

[ December 14, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair enough.

I do concede, however, that writing "When Bush lied people died" was meant to generate a heated discussion and I am sorry if I offended anyone who believes that Bush told the truth.

And no I am not that other guy.

BTW: Yes Geo meant Clinton, but Bush Senior invaded Somalia. I truly believe things would not have been much different if Bush had won that election.

[ December 14, 2003, 21:37: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

"This his how revisionist history is written. You claim that it was I who had insulted other people even though I have not."

Excuse me? CNC? Which of you is the one that implied everyone who opposes the war enjoys human suffering? You. That is in my book an insult of the highest order.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I should point out that this quote was taken out of context as I was referring to the fact that I had been insulted, and the person who had done this insulting justified it by claiming his insults were in response to my having directly insulted him. Something I had not done.


However, I can see your point Phoenix. It was most certainly not intended as an insult, but I can see how it can be taken as one. A poor choice of wording on my part. I shall, in the future, attempt to be more precise.

[ December 14, 2003, 22:20: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, I will endeavor to be more precise in the future. I forget that people often take statements literally, and not in the spirt for which they were typed.

I should have been more specific, and I was not, I stand corrected, and do apologies if I have offend those people. However, the essence of what I said does stand true. If they opposed the war, then it can be said, even if it is proven to be inaccurate, that they supported the continued human suffering that the Iraqi people were enduring by not supporting action to stop that suffering.

[ December 14, 2003, 22:15: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

[quote]Originally posted by CNCRaymond:

Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D: [qb]I should point out that this quote was taken out of context as I was referring to the fact that I had been insulted, and the person who had done this insulting justified it by claiming his insults were in response to my having directly insulted him. Something I had not done. However, I can see your point Phoenix. It was most certainly not intended as an insult, but I can see how it can be taken as one. A poor choice of wording on my part. I shall, in the future, attempt to be more precise.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it wasn't. I fully understood what you were going for, and frankly insults are entirely perception. Which means that yes, he was responding to an insult, meant or not..

The second post was just to provide the proof without making people dig for it.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So by not supporting a specific action to stop "human suffering" (not necessarily of the Iraqis), a person is therefore guilty of not supporting any action to stop "human suffering"? That is flawed logic, I'm afraid. It is quite possible for someone to believe that war is not the way to end "human suffering", and that another path can be found.

To attempt a horrible analogy that takes things to extremes (and borrowing from all the wife-beating occuring earlier in the thread):
If I do not support vivisecting the husband for beating his wife, and thus removing the threat of the husband beating his wife, then I must support the continued beatings -- even if I merely support putting him in a small concrete room for a period of time, and restricting his activities after release from said room (ie, no alcohol, counseling, curfews, community service, whatever...).

Hmm, hope that made sense...

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Gees Roanon, didn’t you and I just have this song and dance. Now you are on the floor with someone else? I feel jealous, point is there had to be around a half dozen ways to put your opinion of CNCRaymond’s comments in a manner that was not insulting. Don’t start jumping on me (happy face) I am only pointing this out because I thought we had reached an agreement. I am sure being as eloquent and insightful as you are, you could soften the blow so that it does not look like you want to start a fight. Anyway, I still feel that you are cheating on me. Didn't I argue enough for you Last time dear? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just a joke,
don't stroke.

Let me also add CNC that you did come across wrong.

[ December 14, 2003, 22:41: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Guys... stop. Seriously. Mud has been slung on both sides. Let it die. This thread is heading nowhere but to a lockdown.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Ah, I have become the focus of angry comments. I will not run and hide from what I have said. If you all enjoy what you are posting them by all means, keep posting. I know I will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The truth is, I was not the one to personally insult someone, I was the one who was personally insulted. Twisting my words to suit your needs, does not justify your actions or comments. I have apologized for not being more precise in my comments, and if that is not good enough, then oh well, life goes on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

To many of you are far to inflamed by this topic and I agree that the best thing to do here is for you all to apologize for treating me with disrespect or to lock down this thread to prevent more of your unprofessional behavior and comments.

After all pointing out other points of view, whether or not I personally agree with them or not, is all that I have done. Attacking me for it just proves how valid those other points of view are. If that offends people, then perhaps they have a guilty conscience for not supporting the war effort. I do not know, and I really don't care if you defend your insulting behavior by piling on more insults. That is your right, even if it does violate the terms of use of this forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

If Roanon was offended by my comments, he should have handled it more professionally than to resort to the childish insulting behavior that he chose to conduct himself in. Justifying his behavior by saying I insulted him is at best warped logic.

Now that Phoenix has pointed out the error of my ways, I have posted an apology. The matter is now considered resolved in my opinion. But again, if you all wish to continue with this debate, I will be more than happy to oblige you.

Will, you make an excellent point in your post. Thank you for pointing out the warped logic of the statement. However, even though it is warped, people will saddly still chose to believe it.

[ December 14, 2003, 23:04: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Well, I don't think my comments were angry... I'm just pointing out the flawed logic in your statements, generalizing opposition to one thing as opposition to all things. I'm pretty sure the disrespecting comment wasn't directed at what I said, but just to make sure: There was no disrespect in my post, whether you saw it or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Overall guideline for forum-goers: If a generalization is posted that is insulting, try not to take it seriously; it will save all involved a headache http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

--edit: Fyron, aye, I did it seems... I was fairly sure that it wasn't directed at my comments, but I was just ensuring that everyone knew that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 14, 2003, 23:10: Message edited by: Will ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually... when you refute someones position in an overtly hostile manner, it is arumentative. If you drop the hostility, it will become discussion like most other people's responses.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It miust be nice knowing what everyone else thinks and believes. I have not actually posted anything that would support such a statement. What I have posted that I disagree with is your attitude and manner of "discussion".

And for the record, Bush did lie. It is called propaganda, part of waging war. Every war fought throughout history has been filled with propaganda. Propaganda is by its very nature at best a half-truth. You can not fault someone for employing propaganda. You can certainly fault them for their real reasons for going to war, but not just the fact that they lied. Lying is what being a leader is about.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Will, you posted concurrently with CNC's Last edit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Ah yes, Sorry about that Will, I made an edit to clarify my comments.

Will, you make an excellent point in your post. Thank you for pointing out the warped logic of the statement. However, even though it is warped, people will saddly still chose to believe it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ December 14, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: CNCRaymond ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No comment.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do I understand this correctly? Calling me childish is NOT an insult, because YOU are doing it?
If I was offended by your comments (yes I was) then I should have handled it more professionally than by saying you insulted me, which is at best warped logic?
I give up, I really cannot understand this logic, my fault probably.

[ December 14, 2003, 23:25: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you are wrong. I suppose we can't know for sure. But I believe that Clinton's lack of comitment to the troops in the field, and mishandling turned what could have been a succesful operation into an abject failure.

It's not uncommon for the President in charge when things go to hell to be blamed for the failure of the operation, rightly or wrongly. Nixon get's maligned for Vietnam, which was started by Johnson. Kennedy inherited the Bay of Pigs from Ike.

On the plus side I supported what Clinton was trying to do in Bosnia. I would have liked to see more effort, but at least they stuck it out till the end there, unlike Mogadishu.

Geoschmo

[ December 14, 2003, 23:43: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

For my part I am not claiming one insulted the other first. I am saying that it takes two to escalate the matter. You did apologize and that is fair enough. As to your viewpoint I hope I did not (was not trying to) insinuate either point is correct or wrong. I want to stay neutral.

My input is based on seeing one to many arguments started over what should be discussion. Did I say arguments? I meant fights. Have I been in a fight, heck yes my house is glass and I have stones in my pockets. It occurred to me (with the help of Roanon) that I needed to put those stones down and patch the broken glass, metaphorically speaking of course.

Roanon and CNC can take a lesson from Imperator Fyron and I. Imperator Fyron knows me as well as SJ, Atrocities, or Geo does, heck he knew me before I changed persona to President-Elect Shang. As I recall we have had more than one tiff ourselves (correct me if I am wrong) but we always calmed down and I think you two could do the same if you tried.

Even to this day Imperator Fyron and I do not see eye-to-eye, however we have come to understand one another as well as this board allows, now I feel very confident in reading his opinions and taking criticism from him concerning my conduct. I don’t expect you two (CNC, Roanon) to be friends or even agree. I am just asking that you try to calm down and debate in a non-insulting way. You both could have changed a few words out and said the same thing and not been so darn insulting.

I said it before and I will say it again, I want to stay neutral in this debate. But make no mistake if Imperator Fyron goes higher to have this thread locked I will back him all the way, that too is part of the mutual respect we have developed.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually... when you refute someones position in an overtly hostile manner, it is arumentative. If you drop the hostility, it will become discussion like most other people's responses.

Quote:

Fyron even called me "partisan" because he disagrees with all my postitions but of course he not a partisan

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It miust be nice knowing what everyone else thinks and believes. I have not actually posted anything that would support such a statement. What I have posted that I disagree with is your attitude and manner of "discussion".

And for the record, Bush did lie. It is called propaganda, part of waging war. Every war fought throughout history has been filled with propaganda. Propaganda is by its very nature at best a half-truth. You can not fault someone for employing propaganda. You can certainly fault them for their real reasons for going to war, but not just the fact that they lied. Lying is what being a leader is about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right Fyron I don't know what you think or believe all I know is what you write in this forum. My assumption is that you are being intellectually honest and what you write reflects what you think.

I have reread all my postings in this thread and there is not one hostile word leveled at anyone (on this forum). I think you may percieve them to be hostile because they are the opposite of your positions (that's what I think anyway). On the other hand I took the partisan comment to be hostility aimed at me.

So with that said I challenge you to find a position that I have staked where you DO agree with me. If we disagree on every political position written in this forum and I am a "partisan" then doesn't that make you a "partisan" too?

[ December 15, 2003, 00:13: Message edited by: rextorres ]

OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Go and Look. I think this will buy G.W. Bush another season as president.

[ December 14, 2003, 12:03: Message edited by: Karibu ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, I don't know about this Fyron. Personally I am not convinced that Bush lied about Iraq's WMD's. It very possible, if not likely, at this point Bush was very wrong about the threat of Iraqi WMD's. But being wrong and lying are two very different things.

If someone were to prove that Bush knew that Iraq had no legitimate WMD threat and that the war was only intended to line the pockets of Haliburton then I would say that goes way beyond propaganda. Propaganda is lying to gain tactical advantage over the enemy. This would be lying to your own people to cover up presidential malfeseance of a tremendous scale.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What a shame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

I don’t think that Bush lied; I think that Blair and he felt the threat was there. Saddam had enough time to conceal or destroy most evidence before the ground war kicked off. With him in custody it may lead to the uncovering of stashes that are still hidden. Only time will pan this one out.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Rex, I did not say your hostility is aimed at anyone in particular. The overall tone of your Messages is extremely dismissive of anyone that does not share your opinions. You can be hostile in general without a specific target in mind. I could rattle off a list of other adjectives that might be more appropriate than "hostile", but that would accomplish little. This is much more evident in the Military Buffs thread (as well as the tone of many of your Posts in these sorts of threads that have existed in the past) than in this thread, but the issue is being discussed here, not there.

As for your challenge, I do not have an opinion one way or another on many of these particular issues, so meeting it (as well as failing it) would be rather difficult.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

One SOB down and one bigger SOB to go!

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too early. People tend to forget what has happend more than half a year ago when voting. So this is really a reason to celebrate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suppose calling someone a "flag waver" could be considered an insult in some circles, but other than that I do not read any hostility in my tone in that thread either.

I did disagree with you in that thread as well though . . . so maybe that's why you are picking up hostility.

BTW: Can I quote what you've posted here next time you write an opinion.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the person you called "flag waver" was thrilled to death by it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Seriously though, it was a bit provacative. I am surprised he let it go without challenging you. If he is a flag waver, then you would have to provide proof, IE a picture of such, and since you cannot provide such proof, the alligation can be taken as I said, provocatively. In stead he simply let the comment go without comment. That says a lot about his character.

But all is good that ends good, so lets move on.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, I don't know about this Fyron. Personally I am not convinced that Bush lied about Iraq's WMD's. It very possible, if not likely, at this point Bush was very wrong about the threat of Iraqi WMD's. But being wrong and lying are two very different things.

If someone were to prove that Bush knew that Iraq had no legitimate WMD threat and that the war was only intended to line the pockets of Haliburton then I would say that goes way beyond propaganda. Propaganda is lying to gain tactical advantage over the enemy. This would be lying to your own people to cover up presidential malfeseance of a tremendous scale.

Geoschmo </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well spoken Geoschmo. Although Fyron does make a good point and one that can pass as he has described it. Bush may have been spreading propoganda knowing that it might not be accurate. That is something that he will have to answer for in time I think.

About this "Haliburton" can you provide more info. I only briefly heard about this the other day and have not been able to do a follow up. Thanks.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here are a few of your more hostile passages:

"Some people feel uncomfortable with this "revisionist" history because it doesn't show the US in the best light and in today's Jingoistic climate if your not 100% pro US your unpatriotic . . . I guess if it lets them sleep better at night good for them."

"Atrocities - dropping the a-bomb wasn't meant to save civilian lives - I guess it's hard for flag wavers to admit that the U.S. was already killing hundred of thousands of civilian lives - not admitting THIS is revisionist. "

"That the bomb ended the war is a myth that we Americans like to tell ourselves. The US was already killing 100,000s of civilians every night from fire bombings in the capital cities so please don't give me any altruistic crap about saving innocent civilian lives."

All of these have an explicity provokative tone to them. Hence, hostility. There is no need for the tone of these. You could have avoided a lot of problems by wording them better.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Disagreement does not equate hostility. The hardest mistakes to recognize are your own.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I am ever as hostile as you are at times, feel free to.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No comment.

Quote:

If Roanon was offended by my comments, he should have handled it more professionally than to resort to the childish insulting behavior that he chose to conduct himself in. Justifying his behavior by saying I insulted him is at best warped logic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do I understand this correctly? Calling me childish is NOT an insult, because YOU are doing it?
If I was offended by your comments (yes I was) then I should have handled it more professionally than by saying you insulted me, which is at best warped logic?
I give up, I really cannot understand this logic, my fault probably. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No you do not understand me correctly. I did not call you childish, I called your behavior childish and insulting. But you can take it any way you want. And thank you for your apology if that is indeed what you have done here; "I give up, I really cannot understand this logic, my fault probably." If not, oh well, life goes on.

However, in the intrest of putting this behind us and moving forward with other topics, I, for having inadvertantly offending you with my words, offer my apologies.

I do not believe you to be a bad person, and if I have inadvertantly implied that you are, well that was not my intent.

Besides, what would I have gained by dilibrately insulting a member of this forum? Naw, I feel that you are more emotionally connected to the topic than I, therefore far more invested in what is said.

If you have no futher objects, shall we consider this the end?

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Nicely put CNC, Roanon?

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Thanks Fyron - If saying something is "Altruistic Crap" and lamenting that one can't voice his opinions because of the climate in America today is "hostile" then you have a very thin skin. I can point to a number of posting in this thread alone that are way more provocative than that.

Anyways, I thought you wrote that, "I do not have an opinion one way or another on many of these particular issues".

[ December 15, 2003, 02:39: Message edited by: rextorres ]

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

If you don't see anything wrong with the way you have been posting, there is little I can do to help you.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

I don't know what the record is for Posts in a single topic in one day is, but I feel this one has got to be in the contention. 96 Posts in less than 12 hours. Not bad. And we owe this all to the Capture of Saddam.

Again, congrats to the US military, There allies, and the Iraqi People.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

Fyron and Rex I think both of you have made your good points and both of you have made statements that are over the line. Let's try to get the conversation off of who is hostile and who is not and get back to discussing the issues, or just drop it all together.

Try to find a way to disagree with the substance of each other's comments without critisizing the manner in which they are made.

Geoschmo

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blair definitely did. Anyone remember that plagiarised college thesis that had "Iraqi" search/replaced for "terrorist" and was then presented by the government as an "intelligence report"?

As for the Halliburton thing...There are a zillion sites out there tracking the tentacles of Bush's money, but on a slightly different note here's a link I like to post from time to time: http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/20...g_archive.html
Read the posting of August 28th for an interesting angle on the distribution of these rebuilding contracts. Spend a while reading some of the more recent Posts as well. As far as I'm concerned these Iraqi blogs are the only place for ppl like us to know what's actually going on inside the country.

Re: OT: Saddam Hussein Arrested
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't misunderstand me. I know full well that after the fact Haliburton is making a killing off of the contracts for Iraqi construction. This is a bit disturbing to me as well, however, it's not unheard of for people in powerful postions to have powerful friends. But the fact that Haliburton is benefitting from the war does not by itself prove that the war was started to benefit Haliburton. That's the accusation being made by many in opposition to the war. But I have seen nothing that comes cloes to proving it.