Re: New SJ mod
 

Hmmm.. another nifty mod with which to waste my life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'd just like to suggest that shields could be a higher tech tree, maybe stalling the introduction of them to mid game. Then you could fill out the early game with mainly armors and low tech options. My favorite, and I've yet to see it would be ships encased in ice or ice fields. I imagine these would be fully and partial shielding.

just my 2 bits USD (but Canadian bits are becoming more valuable, so that's only 3 bits Cdn. instead of 4 bits Cdn.)

Re: New SJ mod
 

Regarding solid shields, I'm currently waffling between making them a racial tech, or just leaving them normal tech because they are fairly weak.

While I haven't actually thought about going into operational details, the ice fields would be a useful low-tech shield-like system.

-----

As for the moons & such, with the low cap on max training, I'm not worried.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Ok, I've got a half decent weapon tech tree set up now...

1) Researching Physics provides new warhead types; kinetic, chemical, nuclear, antimatter, polaron, quantum, ion, etc.
2) Researching Military Science provides new delivery mechanisms; projectile, pulse, beam, torpedo, missile.

Combine any two to produce a new weapon.
EG: Polaron + Beam = PPB
Kinetic + Projectile = DUC
Also, Chemical + Beam = Ripper beam
Nuclear + Beam = Incinerator Beam
Quantum + Beam = WMG
to reuse a few good names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Researching level one of both warhead and mechanism, will open the specific weapon branch.

1) The weapon branch provides cheaper weapons
2) Researching above level 1 in the warhead or delivery techs will increase firepower/range/accuracy/etc depending on what makes sense for the combo.

Re: New SJ mod
 

SJ, any idea of a completion date? This mod sounds good, and I'd like to play it when it's ready to d/l.

Re: New SJ mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second that, SJ your new MOD is going to be fantastic, I can't wait to play it.

Re: New SJ mod
 

I'll be posting the files once I've got the core done.

Not sure how long it'll take.

What I do know I need to still do:
- Decide on basic stats for the weapons (7by5 grid = 35 weapons)
- grid 'em up (3 areas, 6 levels)
- clean up the tech areas, make sure everything is researchable and delete unused ones.
- Run through the components and throw in some reasonable prices for everything.

The rest can wait, and there will be plenty of tweakage room.

Re: New SJ mod
 

All right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

Your tech gridder program will make actually generating all the comps take no time at all once you get them planned out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

Fyron why don't you say something mean or rude about SJs work.
Then we can here him defend his long hours of work and programing as you do with other modders (you have issue with).

SJ your work is outstanding BTW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thanks, I also look forward to the sj mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ January 27, 2004, 10:15: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

After late nights all weekend and a midterm exam monday, I've finally got a bit of time to breathe!

Time to try out the combat system with other people!

Tomorrow, Tuesday 17, at about 7:00pm EST, I'm going to be on IRC to arrange some fleet-action tactical combat.

Post questions and requests in the IRC tactical thread.
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...&f=23&t=010977

Re: New SJ mod
 

Mod update:
I've got base stats for the weapons, now.
Some nice pictures, animations, and even sounds!

Note:
Will add some fighter stuff next.
Once the Last patch is out, more of the ship weapons will be able to target fighters... beam weapons, mainly.
At the moment, only light missiles target fighters.

Re: New SJ mod
 

hi SJ,

Just had a quick snoop through the vehiclesize.txt on your new mod, and I have a few suggestions:

You are curretnly using the troopinfantry pic for both you light and heavy infantry. I suggest using Troopinfantry for light and eliteinfantry for heavy. There is a generic for eliteinfantry available in the proportional response pack.

Some shipsets are now coming out with minesmall/minemedium/minelarge, satellitesmall/satellitemedium/satellitelarge pics. You can use these without any shipsets resorting to generics whatsoever. Just change the appropriate lines to:

Primary bitmap: minesmall.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

Primary bitmap: minemedium.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

Primary bitmap: minelarge.bmp
secondary bitmap: mine.bmp

For traditional shipsets with only one mine image, that image will still serve all three sizes as before. However newer shipsets which include one or two extra mine images will use them.

Same for satellites, obviously, and drones as well if you feel like it.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Thanks.
I was using this table (http://www.sandman43.fsnet.co.uk/neostand.htm) to pull imagenames from, I suppose it is out of date now.

Re: New SJ mod
 

no, it's not out of date at all, it's just that there are a few more semi-standard image sizes out there as well.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Is there an easy place to find those yet?
A link, or perhaps a second table of images would be handy.

Re: New SJ mod
 

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/SJmod.zip

Now with basic weapons set up.

I still have to set up many of the component prices, and I'll be making a second pass over the supply usage to tweak the rapid-firing weapons downwards a bit.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Take a look here - if it appears broken, hit "refresh". It should work.

This is Mlmbd's neostandard++ imagelist. There are maybe 3 or 4 shipsets that include all of these, and numerous shipsets that include a select few of them. In addition, you have the Starlinerlarge image as used by Proportions mod, and at least a dozen of cargostations, cutters, light & heavy frigates, destroyers, mercships and stuff introduced by the adamant mod. These aren't particularly well supported by shipsets at the moment, but numbers are gradually growing. Finally there's the juggernaught image, which- oddly- isn't used in any mod that I'm aware of (although that doesn't mean much- I don't really keep up to date with the mod scene) but appears in a whole stack of Atrocities' shipsets and (I think) one or two others. I'd love to know where this originated.

So far I have resisted trying to nail all these down into any sort of new table or list, because frankly, I have too many other things to do, but it looks like maybe some kind of central reference would be valuable. Maybe this weekend, if I get time.

[ February 20, 2004, 08:48: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

Mounts for making component costs a square progression! SJ, you're a genius! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif The best I could do was give the hulls really huge up-front costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Now for the maintenance costs going up at a slower rate, are you going to have various Bridge components which can only be mounted on specific ship sizes? (e.g. Escort Bridge gives some amount to maintenance reduction, Frigate Bridge gives a bit more, etc.)

Oh, and is that a typo in the armor tonnages? 30 - 65 HP/kT is a LOT, even compared to Adamant light armor! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

Maintenance reduction is built into the hulls themselves, and can't be disabled by damage.
In fact, the scouts have +1000 or so maintenance, since their component costs are so low.

The armor is leaky, and though the average ship has about 10hp/kt, they will be disabled long before they are destroyed.
Still, its is designed to be a slow combat model, and the number of rounds has been increased to 90.

Kalashnikov's frigate managed to survive in the tactical combat with 50% damage to all systems...
It was ready to collapse at any moment, though, as most of its systems were down to the Last backups.

[ February 20, 2004, 21:00: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/sjmod.zip

Another update.
Troop stuff is mostly in, I still need to tweak the sizes and the descriptions a bit... I'll probably make it use some mounts to clean it up a bit.

Also adjusted planetary stats.
Hoo-boy.
A medium sized homeworld, packed to the ionosphere with tanks and infantry...
1.3 million hitpoints! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

Don't go too overboard on planet defenses - it might cause a classic case of "realism" ruining game play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

A destroyer-sized transport can carry 10% of that planet's stock, so it shouldn't be way off.
Of course, if both sides are using hordes of infantry like this, the battle would take forever.

Upgrade to tanks, and the firepower to hitpoints ratio starts climbing. Put some artillery pieces behind them, and your battles will be over quicker.

The idea is that infantry are small and cheap cannon fodder you can throw at the problem to hold off the enemy.

The same situation with Large troops gets 900k hitpoints, and dishes out up to 60k damage per turn.
The infantry-filled homeworld only deals about 5k damage.
It is the heavier (and much more expensive) units which really do the damage.

I'll probably turn up the damage factor to 100%, rather than staying with stock's 30%

[ February 23, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

With these kind of numbers I don't really feel the need to completely prevent ships from firing on planets.

It seems troops act as armor, though. Unfortunate, that.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Id set that level about 70% suicide looking at what youre proposing - also id would double the tech levels with troops you want at least 15 levels perhaps starting at 5Kt troops then 10Kt troops then 20Kt troops up to youre 900Kt make the upgrades spread out longer.

Id also like to see via SE4 updates troops being able to be put in limited numbers on uncolonized planets (just an idea to discuss) and before colonization is possible you would need to destroy them ?

Re: New SJ mod
 

Ok, no, not 900kt troops...
900,000 hitpoints worth of tanks that are 24kt in size each. Just 4-5 thousand tanks on the planet.
Certainly more that is practical to build in a typical game, except perhaps for a large steamroller fleet that is going around capturing planets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The infantry are 2kt each, and there were upwards of 40,000 of them on the planet.

[ February 24, 2004, 15:04: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

I'm looking for a new PBW game. You should run a PBW test game with your mod. Perhaps 6-8 players...?

Re: New SJ mod
 

I don't think it'll be ready for PBW testing like that for 3-4 weeks at least.

(I've got midterms this week, and projects next week)

Re: New SJ mod
 

An update...
Hammered out a lot more details. Still have to grid the weapons out, but it should be playable now.

A few hours of playtesting on the way...

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/OldPir...mads/sjmod.zip

Re: New SJ mod
 

Alrighty.

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/OldPir...mads/sjmod.zip

First of all, I reccommend starting with medium tech.

The early game is much easier now, what with colony ships able to move speed 4 (5 with Propulsion experts)

Beware! Colonizers made out of 200kt ships will eat your budget like there is no tomorrow.
Get extra organics and rads extractors as soon as possible to cover your colonization bill, and don't send out too many at once.
You will want to get up to the 400kt hulls quickly. They may take longer to build, but they'll be much cheaper overall.

Also, make sure you've got supplies on your ships.
Engines don't provide any inherent storage.

Missiles have infinite range, but are relatively weak and suck down huge amounts of supply. Take care in choosing where to use them.

Point Defense:
Your only defense against missiles is a swarm of fighters (with anti-missile pods) and your armor.
Shoot down the defensive fighters with interceptors of your own. Then send in bombers to drop missiles down on the enemy ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On ship sizes:
Remember, while bigger is better, it is also much more expensive.
Build moderate to small ships in swarms as cannon fodder, and save up a fleet of medium-large hero ships for important operations.

Don't be afraid to add armor.
1/4 of your ship is not too much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Take care of your repair drones.
Don't leave them all on a planet where they could accidentally launch in response to an enemy scout.
Instead, store them in cargo bases, and move them to the planet when you need to launch them in large numbers.

Bases:
Use these like you would satellites. They are inexpensive to maintain, so you can fill the skies with 'em. Infinite ammo missile launchers are tempting, but remember that the enemy will be knocking on your hull before you can reload.

[ March 21, 2004, 03:36: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

Hey, i wasnt able to download your mod yet, but i guess its quite good. ANYWAY, can i play this mod VS AI ? If not, when will a PBW game be ready, i would like to join that one ASAP !

Go on, looking for further updates.

Re: New SJ mod
 

The AI don't currently play this, and they'll never play it well.

Decent designs should be possible, and a good tech path is doable. They won't be able to build a good mix of ships, though. Shouldn't be total pushovers, but they won't have the tactics to win much, and they won't be able to repair.

This is still beta...
Start up a single player game, and try out the tech... design a few ships and have a go at the simulator...
Then hit me with the list of bugs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

You changed the description of the Master Computer I, but not the II or III... and are they that much better than regular crew quarters, anyway?

Your hulls ought to have some backup pics - the general hull 2000 uses DreadnoughtHeavy as both its primary and secondary pics, so what if the player has no NeoStandard ships?

1kT armor? With THAT many hitpoints??? You don't seriously expect us to click hundreds of times on the armor icon for each battleship we design??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif How about some armor mounts... maybe a 10x cost, 5x hitpoints "Heavy Armor" and a 100x cost, 25x hitpoints "Ultra Armor"? (Similar to Adamant's armor only using mounts instead of separate components for the different levels of armor) Of course with those kinds of armor you would probably want to reduce the hitpoints per component of armor so it doesn't become nearly impenetrable like it is in stock SE4...

No multi-colony modules yet? They'd really cut down on micromanagement? How about the Colony Tech Mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Plasma Lance" is not capitalized properly... but ooh, those are some cool sounding troop weapons! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Torpedoes say their to-hit bonuses come from "continuous fire" instead of tracking ability! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

But you know, those weapons are EXACTLY what I've always wanted to do with a mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ion weapons sap shields? It's believable but not consistent with their behavior in SE4... and neither is it consistent with the Ionization Beam's description! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Speaking of which, those ion weapons also look rather weak, given that they damage only shields... or are shields that much weaker in this mod and ion weapons are designed as specialty weapons for boarding ships?

edit: No "engines only" or "weapons only" or other special damage types like that yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ March 23, 2004, 19:48: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

Any reason the Science Lab component require unreachable levels of Applied Research tech?
I was working on them, but couldn't get them to work. So I pulled them out for now.

You changed the description of the Master Computer I, but not the II or III... and are they that much better than regular crew quarters, anyway?
Fixed. And they reduce the lifesupport requirements as well, so you save 5 or 10kt of space (depending on level) per computer.

Your hulls ought to have some backup pics - the general hull 2000 uses DreadnoughtHeavy as both its primary and secondary pics, so what if the player has no NeoStandard ships?
Fixed

1kT armor? With THAT many hitpoints??? You don't seriously expect us to click hundreds of times on the armor icon for each battleship we design??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif How about some armor mounts... maybe a 10x cost, 5x hitpoints "Heavy Armor" and a 100x cost, 25x hitpoints "Ultra Armor"? (Similar to Adamant's armor only using mounts instead of separate components for the different levels of armor) Of course with those kinds of armor you would probably want to reduce the hitpoints per component of armor so it doesn't become nearly impenetrable like it is in stock SE4...
The armor is intended to have such a high hp/kt ratio. One of the main reasons is to make sure the internal components comprise an insignificant fraction of the total hitpoints of a ship.
The hitpoints of each armor segment needs to be proportional to the regular components as well, since that is what determines the leakyness... it also helps that every hit normally destroys at least one component.

No multi-colony modules yet? They'd really cut down on micromanagement? How about the Colony Tech Mod?
I don't expect that many players will be taking multiple colony techs, due to their cost, but it can't hurt.
The multi-modules will have the same price and size as a single.

"Plasma Lance" is not capitalized properly... but ooh, those are some cool sounding troop weapons!
Fixed.

Torpedoes say their to-hit bonuses come from "continuous fire" instead of tracking ability!
Fixed.
Accuracy bonus was too high, as well.

But you know, those weapons are EXACTLY what I've always wanted to do with a mod!
Glad you like it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ion weapons sap shields? It's believable but not consistent with their behavior in SE4... and neither is it consistent with the Ionization Beam's description! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Speaking of which, those ion weapons also look rather weak, given that they damage only shields... or are shields that much weaker in this mod and ion weapons are designed as specialty weapons for boarding ships?
Don't forget to account for size, too. The ion torpedo is only 20kt.
Given the leaky shields system, there will almost always be some shields still up, so you can knock them down with a cheap ion bLast, then hammer the hull with antimatter or something.
By alternating some small ion weapons between regular shots, you can negate much of the enemy's shield effects.

No "engines only" or "weapons only" or other special damage types like that yet?
Those damage types have too much skipping effect for this mod.
However, with appropriate armor components, I think it would be a fair addition...
Probably in the quantum weapon types, and if the regular armor could be made to count as engines without adding thrust. That would have about the right effect, I think.

The weapons would be doable in the same sort of way, but the side effects on the weapon list in combat would be horrible.
Still, with tactical combat typically being a disadvantage for the humans, it wouldn't be that bad.

-----

Note: Fighters can only attempt to shoot down missiles while under computer control AFAIK.
In tactical combat, this means turning on "Auto" for the rounds in which you need them to shoot down incoming missiles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 23, 2004, 21:45: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a cool idea SJ. The way you have set it up that is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New SJ mod
 

I also intend to reduce the number of combat rounds to about 30 or 40.
This will hopefully make blockade-storming a viable strategy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The idea being that even though bases are very inexpensive to maintain (1/4 the cost of a ship independent of relative size at medium tech), you won't be able to simply stack them up on warppoints and make the place impenetrable.

You will, of course be able to deal a significant amount of damage to an incoming fleet, but because of the huge armor everywhere, neither side will even come close to annihilating the other.
There will almost certainly be a very large number of survivors. If your targetting strategies are poor, you'll probably have a large number of undamaged enemy ships as well.
If you hurt most of them a little bit, they'll have to stick together and move slowly, instead of just abandoning the few crippled or destroyed ships and pressing on with a slightly smaller perfect-condition fleet.

Destroying a large fleet with another should involve a running battle with plenty of crippled ships falling by the wayside as you go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

That's my theory, anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I hope to be testing it a few weeks from now.

[ March 24, 2004, 00:31: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

In the vs self game I played for a bit, the battles were very back and forth.

Both sides started one jump from each other, and the fleets of ships would end up dying in huge numbers at the warppoint. First one side would push through and win, crippling most of the enemy. Then the other side would retreat the damaged ships and push back with a fresh fleet.
The original side would be damaged and low on supplies, and take heavy damage. Then they would retreat to make room for the next wave.
Out of the 50 ships involved for each assault, no more than about 3 to 5 would actually die in the 90 rounds of combat.
Most of the ship deaths were from 0-move ships that got stuck in the kill zone for multiple battles.

Plenty of assault fleets would get past the battlezone to drop more troops everywhere, and the low-tech ground combat dragged on with rioting.

-----

I've made a bunch of bugfixes, and added some big city facilities for starting out on your homeworld.

Resource income has been dropped for a more reasonable fleet size. The homeworld should be able to support about 20 warships.

I've also decided to allow a repair facility. It is an extension of the Resupply Depot available at repair level 3.
Most of your repairs will still be done by drones, but if you have a low-value planet to burn, you can get 1 repair per facility slot per turn.

-----

I'll be rearranging a few techs once this beta game is over too...
I need to fix the wierd mix of techs you get for each level of physics. (Chemical weapons... and shields at the same time?)

Re: New SJ mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These should work as advertised (mostly), what problem were you having?

[ April 08, 2004, 00:51: Message edited by: spoon ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These should work as advertised (mostly), what problem were you having? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I couldn't see the research points actually getting used.

I just gave it another shot, but I'm not getting anything. Its probably some silly little typo, but I can't see what it is.

Re: New SJ mod
 

When you test it, be sure to check the Research Points Available field up at the top of the main Research Screen (F8). For whatever reason, the points don't show up on the Score screen. Ditto with the Intel Generation components (well, they show up on the main Intel screen...). The resource generation components (mins, rads, and orgs) don't show up anywhere, but they are being generated nonetheless...

Re: New SJ mod
 

Fyron helped me get this one.

It was a typo in the ability name.

Re: New SJ mod
 

A much improved Version now available:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...ods/SJmodBeta/
The betadist.zip is the newest, and now includes mines.

Just need to grid tech the weapons, and playtest more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 28, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

Well, the map analyser is taking longer than I'd hoped.

I think I'll just go with a simple SE3 style weapons for now, get the popmodifiers out and clean up a bit before posting it to PBW for some real playing without me having to process every turn.

Re: New SJ mod
 

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...miscellaneous/

Here's an update.
Possible name for SJmod: Gritty Economics

The stuff you've already seen, plus refined weapons, and a very new economics model.

Minerals are still here, but organics and rads are out.
Replacing them are workers and energy.

Build any of a wide variety of power plants to charge up your energy stores, and build up the training and support facilities for your spaceworkers.

Facilities also have maintenance, so you have to keep things balanced.
If you build way too many mineral miners without the infrastructure to back it up, you'll find your empire experiencing blackouts and worker shortages.

Re: New SJ mod
 

SJ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Excellent economics based mod. Outstanding concepts.

Re: New SJ mod
 

hmm, Gritty Economics Model = GEM Mod. Nice name.

Re: New SJ mod
 

How about a link the one below is broken

Re: New SJ mod
 

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...miscellaneous/
(as in my most recent post before this one)

I deleted the older copy.

PS:
I'll be updating that file in an hour or so.
Just gonna have lunch and then tidy up the tech tree arrangement.

[ May 29, 2004, 17:13: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Re: New SJ mod
 

Hi, SJ I have starange effects useing your mod: I've started a new game but all systems in the map are unnamed! So all planet have the same names: I, II, III etc

Re: New SJ mod
 

Oh, right... that's on my todo list too.
Either choose a small quadrant, or steal a large systemnames.txt from somewhere until I update it.

BTW, the AIs cannot play this.
If you can't find a friend to play against, running both of two sides on a small map will make the dynamics fairly clear.

Just running one side against nobody works too, and you can explore the tech tree faster.

Re: New SJ mod
 

Another strange thing - colony modules mounts affect other components too, making them 2 times smaller than usually.

And change names and description for Robo-Farmers and Robo-Rad Extractors. Where's no org and rads now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 29, 2004, 17:58: Message edited by: aiken ]