Re: Why game is so easy?
 

I won't speak for Proportions other then to say it is the finest mod I have ever played.

====
With respect to AIC:

With OS* option the Population will grow 10 fold and reach 100% Production much faster then with the need for star liners building up population masses.

With MP* The research and other options gives the Facilities and additional Population Options that also will speed colony development http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But AIC may not be for you, Fyron, and this is ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Although Urban Centers are additional tools for AIC players to have, the game is not dependent on them (AT ALL)- - -
{{{unless you are playing AIC in Finite and the need for them is now great.}}}

In regards to the Home World, well all se4 is dependent early on for there Home Worlds survivability and that Population base it has to offer.

Many may say, that AIC Home Worlds yeild many more Options and Abilities then se4.

[ January 21, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Others would say that the restricted nature of colonies removes more options than that allows. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But yeah, AIC is too slow paced for me. This is why I suggested a Version not so dependant on the Proportions roots. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

OK, thanks Fyron, I will do more with options OS*, MP* and another...
Thanks for the input http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


JLS

[ January 21, 2004, 18:18: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

AIC is already far faster then Proportions. Cities are roughly 1/2 of cultural centers and can be build VERY FAST with extra option O1. Too fast for my taste BTW. With this option, ~100 turns with no big wars and one should be able to double or even triple the HW production output.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

100 turns? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Still extremely slow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Look how fast New York was built, even with nothing but Industrial Age technology! And Singapore. And Hong Kong. I think that 50 years is more than enough time to.. Oh, 500 turns? yeah, thats a bit boring. Maybe sacrifice a bit of realism in favor of playability.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Not only is the AI very tough and a real challenge in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

What I also like about AIC is that you have the option to get the population mass up with starliners at a nice slow easy paced game.

OR

AND what I really like about AIC is that you have the options to get the masses up with out Starliners for a more rapid pace game.

AIC has more Colony options then se4 and it only takes 1 year and 7 months (17 turns)to upgrade a city from a Settlement with about a population of only 30 and way less time at a higher population http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also with that 30 population it only takes 5 months (5turns)to build a Colonial Settlement and to upgrade that to a town about another 8months (8turns) or like I said 1.7 Years (17turns) at 30 pop and 2.4years at only 11 pop {{{this is how it is in AIC}}}.

In se4 after you build a few Mining Facilities on a 102% non-breathable planet what option do you have then for Colony development?
With AIC you can build Cities not only on that good of a planet (+100%) but even on a planet with 50% resources and still make a whooping profit.

So for example on a Planet I start by building the approprate or needed facilities and then with the Last slot build ONE Colonial Settlement and upgrade it to a City and then do another and another as you can see with AIC the Colonies do have the same options as se4 and with much, much more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I am not sure where 100 or 500turns comes from to build a simple city in AIC

But I can asure you it is much - much less then 50 turns, unless of coarse you have only 1 pop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
and then again only with ONE (1) Population in about 10 turns with no Starliners or even any Pop Transports adding pop to that Colony you can build that city in about 2.3 Years from a small Colonial Settlement of 11 pop= THATS ONLY 23 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The more Pop the more laborers the faster and more productive the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 17:28: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Puke's response was one of sarcasm... You have to factor in the fact that starting SE4 technology is a hell of a lot faster than industrial age technology, so building cities would not take as long as building New York did, but far less time.

Oleg was not talking about 100 turns for a city, but 100 turns to double or triple the production of the homeworld... this is the slowness I was refering to. 17 turns to begin producing resources on a colony is still extremely slow. And, you can indeed make a whopping profit with mineral miners on a 50% value planet in stock. Not as huge as on a 100% value planet, but still big.

[ January 22, 2004, 17:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see your point Oleg if you are just talking about Urban Centers - but with Apples to Apples.

The AIC Home World starts with about 12kt of minerals along with about every ability the se4 game has to offer.

It does not take nearly 100 years to get a Colony up to 12k with Minning Facilities, and it only takes 2 or 3 trade agreements to match most of the home world starting numbers, it only takes less then a few dozen SAT robo-miners to match that (about 4 trips with the AIC cargo launcher) it only takes several Minning vessels to match 12kt, it only takes severel bases to match 12kt.

One more thing, you did start your AIC game with a good amount of Resources, Research, Intel and tons of other special abilities with that AIC home world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining?

With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities[/b], Metros, Megas, Huge Population Centers, Racial Culture Centers and New World Colonial Populaation Centers
All this along with the all the basic se4 Minning and other resource gathering facilities - all this along with dozens of other other neat speacle facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 22, 2004, 18:20: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was not sure what PUKE ment by

"Oh, 500 turns? yeah, thats a bit boring. Maybe sacrifice a bit of realism in favor of playability."

Thats why I posted

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ January 22, 2004, 18:09: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

I know what you posted... again, Puke was being sarcastic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining?

With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities, Metros, Megas, Huge Population Centers, Racial Culture Centers and New World Colonial Populaation Centers
All this along with the all the basic se4 Minning and other resource gathering facilities - all this along with dozens of other other neat speacle facilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have completely missed the point GLV... NOONE ever said anything about more or less options for colonizing planets, but about the length of time it takes to make colonies useful...

[ January 22, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito: GLV: I am not sure where 100 or 500turns comes from to build a simple city in AIC But I can asure you it is much - much less then 50 turns, unless of coarse you have only 1 pop and then again only with ONE (1) Population in about 10 turns with no Starliners or even any Pop Transports adding pop to that Colony you can build that city in about 2.3 Years from a small Colonial Settlement of 11 pop= THATS ONLY 23 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The more Pop the more laborers the faster and more productive the project http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Quote:

Yes, same with AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But can you build a se4 default Minning Facility when you are done robo-mining? With AIC you CAN and it will be a whopping profit with resources, Intel, Research and Storage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif And I like that Colony developement addition with AIC Colonial Settments, Comunities, Towns,Cities, b]Racial Cities

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/b]


This is great about AIC and Proportion colonies, you never run out of things to do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It does not take that long to build se4 basic resource extraction facilities in AIC, and 2.3 years for the AIC city sounds resonable to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I agree with Oleg I also like Star Liners but many others like the OS* trait option because the game does go at a much faster pace and you have but don't need Star Liners. But I really LOVE the AIC MP* options for MULTIPLAYER not only do you have more ships, bases faster research but you also have AIC Multiplayer HANDICAPPING http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Thanks Fyron, there is always more that can be done, and more will be done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Agreed Puke, it should take less then 50 years to build a City

Agreed GLV “Cities are not that time consuming to build/upgrade playing AIC; at less then 4years (FOUR) with AIC Cities” and when you want to further a small or even a mined out planet, Urban Development does come in very handy along with other options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Founding Fathers rarely build their Cities over the best crop land.


Agreed Fyron, "17 turns to begin producing resources on a colony is still extremely slow." However with AIC, it has always been; with only 9pop it only takes 3 turns (THREE) or less to build a resource extraction facilty and only 2 turns (TWO) or less for a research facility http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Additionally you are also Correct QB, if you build basic se4 resource extraction facilities in AIC (above) it does not take that long to max out a Colony; especially with the new OS* starting trait options.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 19:47: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is still extremely slow (including the necessity of getting 9 M pop on all planets in the first place...) for what they produce...

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

However Fyron, the time it takes to re-supply a Colony with Population relatively is the same time as with se4 when you have Pop transports on the way or with the Colony Ship (1 Turn) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 20:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Which REQUIRES population transports going to all planets to get them up and running, which slows things down tremendously....

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

But even without fresh pop as soon they land it is about 5turns (FIVE) for a resource Facility and 4turns (FOUR) for a research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Depending on your race, etc

[ January 24, 2004, 20:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly, this is why the AIC OS* FREE starting trait (OPTION) is so neat for those who do not like Star liners or micromanage se4 Pop Transports, it increases the game pace.

[ January 24, 2004, 20:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is still very slow, given the low amount of resources they produce!

[ January 24, 2004, 20:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

OK. Now you move to this statement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Fyron, AIC has always been designed with the intent to have less ships in play then se4.
This may make for a more manageable LAN and Multiplayer game… Some players may not like to manage tons and tons of ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

I think we are getting really far from the original point of the suggestion, to make a Version of AIC that is more akin to the stock game than to Proportions... none of the human player options come close. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Agreed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


Actually I do plan on this, as it states in the AIC Readme.

But I may hold off until se5 for its base http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 24, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not true. Use option OP1 and you will able to fill colonies with research centers or mineral miners VERY fast without shipping any population at all.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

We already went over that Oleg... even with that option, it still takes a long time to get productive colonies. 3 turns for piddly resource production per facility is not what I would call very fast.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

There are plenty of people that like playing with 1000s of ships. They are certainly manageable, that is what fleets are for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know about you, but that's when I start running out of individual names for my ships.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Well a few files of 1000 randomly generated names help a lot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And of course, so does stopping naming them all when you get that many.

I probably should have said "that is what fleets and auto-destination way points from build queues are for." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 25, 2004, 20:11: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

There really should be a drop box for ship names that connects to your design names file minus the names that are used...that would make my life easier!

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Indeed it would! But it would make savegames a lot bigger to store the names you already used, or would have a noticeable delay every time you open the drop box, as it would have to search every single entry... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

I experimented a little and think it is possible to get AIC games almost the same momentum as an unmoded game (first 30-40 turns will be slow still). Basically, your race setup should have O1 and MP options. Pour racial points into Propulsion Experts and max out research and construction. Research Fast Colonizers and contr-terran engines ASAP. That will give colony ships speed 5 - almost like normal game. O1 option will remove the need for population transports. MP will give you Research centers and Miners with 50% extra output - to compensate for slower building rate. Finally, construction bonuses/penalties add up, not multiply. That means if you have -75% from low population and +25% from the race ability, fresh colony will have only -50% construction. Ten turns later with O1 and it will build basic buildings in 2 turns ! Of course, if you run into xenophobic AI, all plans off.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

First 30-40 turns being overly slow is generally very detrimental to PBW games... and forcing everyone to have vastly similar empires just to play is not a good plan. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

Fyron, the production scale for AIC is not to have tons and tons of ships in play, it designed with the intent to have a manageable amount of Ships for LAN, Multiplayer and for those that only want 36 or less to 600+ of War Ships per player possible for that AIC game. (Depending on AIC/Stock map and size the players want)

With the new introduction for the AIC Players OPTIONS to have FQM maps with many more asteroids in play; allows the OPTION for the above ship numbers to double even triple or more for both the AI and the Human Players. (Depending on FQM map and size the players want)


The scale of AIC may not be for you Fyron. However there are many players that like this manageable pace and scale. Not to say AIC will not be packed with even more future options and enhancements with its AIC MP* starting options.

With AIC Finite economics and the ability for the AIC AI to build and afford 20000 plus ships or bases with ease; when I port AIC to se4 and/or se5 base and raising Human Player and AI Players production levels will have the scale of ships in the TENS of thousands that you refer to. I am unsure who would want to play such a monster, but I will start HUGH with rapid fire growth and then scale it back if needed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In the mean time; I do enjoy playing your Adamant, TDM, P&N, DevNull and most especially Atrocities Star Trek MOD (great job Will) for all there beauty, detail, scope, internal operations and its grandeur . I have learned so much from you Fyron and all the Sys-opps on this Forum.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 25, 2004, 14:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

fyron.... kwok names each ship differently.

you will never see adjate 0075 on his ships...

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sometimes I'll name support ships (repair, supply, resource, transports) with numbers, for example UJFS Replak 01, or UJFS Suplik 01. But all military ships get names for sure!

Sometimes I think it takes longer naming the ships than giving orders in some PBW games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm... duh... that is exactly what he said... Nothing I said would indicate otherwise.

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try the AI Campaign MOD.
The AIC AI is awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Be warned (Play the AIC at NO or just a LOW AI bonus at first.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In AIC I can beat the AI in a medium setting, but it is very rare.
If you set the Computer to Medium or Hi in AIC it will be more of a chalange then you want. This setting is used in AIC Multiplayer games.

[ January 26, 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gag me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif you are too much of a politician JLS.

Just – Stir it up (little da# da#) Stir it up, ya http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 13:22: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ten turns later with O1 and it will build basic buildings in 2 turns !
I like your idea Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

And regarding AIC zeno races, if you run into a Human Player that does not want you to pass the same is also true, good thing there are only 2 xenos players in AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 26, 2004, 12:59: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: Why game is so easy?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron says TDM is in error and needs fixing still.
But thats just Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


There are a lot of new mods on the Forum or they can be found at the se4.com web site. You should find no conflict of interests at the se4 main site.

[ January 27, 2004, 11:13: Message edited by: QBrigid ]