Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

I know Narf, I was just playing with your Cheese. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

*snatches his cheese back and wipes it off*

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Ah man! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Just after I dropped it in the toilet too. (Narf, I would double check that before eating it.)

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

I think that the real reason why humans, earth, and/or the Americans are always first or victorious in the end is that simply, humans are making the movies, and most of the time it's in American movies. I don't think the paying audience would go see a movie in which the aliens come out on top (unless you're talking about Aliens from the Alien movies). We want to see us being the good guys and be able to win in the end.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

*throws the dirty cheese at Atrocities and goes to wash his hands*

brie? i don't think i've eaten brie before...

the humans don't have to loose, i'm just saying, couldn't the vulcans have thought up the federation?

[ January 02, 2004, 16:23: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

This topic has been discussed before many times on other forums. Mostly it has never been resolved as it is a good question.

I think the reason for the Federation and why it came from Earth is because of our history. We are a diverse culture and once we realized who each culture made the whole stronger when we all worked together, provided the premis for the Federation.

Gene R. I think used portions of The Forbidden Planet and other period sci-fi movies, books, comics, lore, and inspirations to create Star Trek. Not the Star Trek that we saw in 1967 - 69, as that was not his vision, but the first two season of STNG. (The worst seasons.)

We as humans are driven by conflict. Gene R. vision for star trek lacked that basic concept and it had to be added. If you look at all of the great episodes, they were all conflict driven. From Balance of Terror through Yestardays Enterprise and Best of Both Worlds. The Dominion War in DS9, and the Borg battles in Voyager. Conflict drives us as a race, and when we see it on the screen, tv, or read about it we become deeply inthrawaled.

To find conflict all you have to do is turn on your TV and watch the news. Our media is controlled by huge corperations that feed upon the personal human mysery, create conflict over mondain subjects, and sell nothing but filterd BS to us as news when in fact it is little more than made up crap based upon controversy and conflict.

So knowning that conflict is as important to our exsistance as water, air, food, and shelter, writers have always keyed their work around it.
That goes for books, comics, movies, and television.

And no one wants to see the Human Race beaten so we will more often than not, always win.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, but why would we be the most diverse culture in ST?

personally, i'd like to see a book written where earth joins a larger, well established galactic community as simply the newest member and not a victim or the most capable. there's an anthology series called Isaac's Universe that does this, but i havn't seen any new books in a while. that series, although it does focus on the humans, does a good job of portraying humans, not as an underdog, but as a newcomer, perhaps regarded with a little hesitation because there only the seventh race to develop space travel and there hadn't been a new race for, i think, thousands of years.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, but why would we be the most diverse culture in ST?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, in ST, most races that the Federation have encountered are of one race throughout that planet. Earth, on the other hand, has several skin colors, with almost 200 different countries and Languages. So, yes, we are culturely diverse. Maybe in a million years all people on earth maybe the same skin color if everyone on earth have mixed partnerships, but until that time comes, then we are a diverse culture.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, but ST is fiction. i'm saying it shouldn't have been written that way.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Actually... a number of alien species in ST have multiple "races." Vulcans most certainly do. Tuvok and Spock, anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

yeah, so, see? 2,000 years and the vulcan's should have come up with the federation. in fact, given that vulcan's(ignoring some horrible changes in later series) don't lie, they'd have a much better chance of making a federation than some unknown. granted, the presence of vulcan as one of the founding member's would help the humans, but...2,000 years...and nothing to show for it. yeah, right.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

The horrible binding to logic and divorce from all emotion that the Vulcans has causes them to not be very ingenius or creative and to be unwilling to take risks, basically because endangering yourself is illogical. Various vulcans have stated stuff like that in various series.

[ January 02, 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

however, Spock has shown himself willing to take calculated risks. granted, Spock is a special case.

but that still doesn't address 2,000 years of nothing.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Spock was half human. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">now, can we stop repeating? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 02, 2004, 19:27: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

The thing to keep in mind is that the Vulcan, according fan lor and cannon, were war like until they adopted the way of surek. After that they all just got along. They enjoyed their new found logic and way of life, and developed a holly than though attitude toward races that reminded them of who they once were. Kinda like how you are better than the loosers in your family.

In Enterprise the capitolized upon this.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Maybe we really are in a low-budget universe designed for easy comprehension by the lowest common denomenator audience. When we find alien races in space, maybe they will almost all be bipedal humanoids who speak English (but without indefinite articles).

Incidentally, when Gene Rod. did get a script in TOS, it tended to have some really awful elements. For example, the TOS episode where the turning point is when Kirk finds an old flag of the underground movement on the alien planet, and sees that it just happens to coincidentally be exactly like a flag of the USA. Naturally, this also goes hand-in-hand with them having come up with the same words as some of America's Founding Fathers, which he recites. Yep. Total coincidence. USA as universal truth and goodness. Yep.

Yep.

Yep yep yep.

PvK

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i'd put it another way. the vulcan race's culture got butured reapetadly and contineusly because some of the writer's couldn't stand the thought of a race that's smarter, stronger and faster than humans. mind you, i think all races would be equal. but they've slowing been making them less.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

:: Passes narf a wedge of room temp brie

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Back in the day, I don't think that would have played into it, but in TNG that could well be true.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

in my opinion, the start was when they introduced that vulcan mating ritual. first, if the anger really builds up it would make more sense for vulcans to have a punching bag and hit it every once in a while. second, it turns the whole vulcan self-control into a fake.

but i've ranted enough.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

It is not anger that builds up, but just emotions in general. It does not turn anything into a fake. In fact, it makes perfect sense. If you bottle up emotions (any of them), they tend to explode at some point. Some outlet is needed. Sex is a great outlet for many emotions.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

so, by that logic, the best solution is still a continuel release of emotions in areas where they don't interfere with reasoning. at the very least, the whole things jury-rigged.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Any release of emotion has the potential to interfere with logic and reason.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have to defend this one. This plot twist was explained in later episodes. There was a race of beings the went around creating duplicate worlds and transplating raced to those worlds for study. However something happened to the race and it was wiped out by another race. Both TOS and TNG, as well as episodes in DS9, mention races that did this.

[ January 03, 2004, 23:02: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">so, a more logical responce to me would be to spend a set hour in the equivalent of a mental breakdown.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">plot hole cover. mind you, i'm not saying there not needed sometimes, and in TOS it was all new. i don't think they where sure how to make aliens, not to mention a low effects budget. but, if there's aliens out there, a human may one day discuss the practical applications of pacifism with something that looks like the alien from the Alien movies.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Good points Narf.

I am a big advocate for going back and redoing all of TOS's special effects that can be redone.

But one thing is for certain, TOS had some cool things going on that no other show had at that time.

The series was by all mean revolutionary. Even George Lucas has commented on how it had influanced him. (Mirror Mirror)

The tri-corders, communicators, and phasers were all cool revoultionary ideas that for the most part have come to pass in one form or another with the notable exception of the phaser.

(The models of each of these are cool and I am proud to have many of them.)

The ships/sets/costumes were all futuristic looking, and even though the costumes by todays standards are laughable, the did server the purpose back then.

Enterprise is trying to do be TOS crossed with Voyager and that in my honest opinion is a big big huge fricking master mega mistake of gargantuan proportions. LEAVE voyager out of it, that show was so hidiously horrible that it gave Star Trek a bad name.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

[quote]Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:

Quote:

so, a more logical responce to me would be to spend a set hour in the equivalent of a mental breakdown.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sex is easier to stop afterwards and provides a biological function.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Voyager was a good series...

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron your my friend so I will not take that comment personally while I try to repres my urge to vomet.

*shakes violently*

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When is this mentioned in TOS?

PvK

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When is this mentioned in TOS?

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Atrocities' confusing Organians (sp?) with that progenitor alien on TNG.

[ January 04, 2004, 21:37: Message edited by: TerranC ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron your my friend so I will not take that comment personally while I try to repres my urge to vomet.

*shakes violently* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron was right to tell it "was", because it "is not". About dead say only good or nothing. In contrast, ST:OS IS a good show.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Word games, eh? Voyager is a good show.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When is this mentioned in TOS?

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't have a specific episode log for you. Sorry man. You'll have to watch them all over again.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

It was an ancient race called the "Preservers" who went around transplanting humanoid races from planet to planet and saving them from extinction. They were mentioned in episode 58, "The Paradise Syndrome". You know, the one where Captain Kirk is stuck on a planet inhabited by Native Americans, and he loses his memory and gets married while the Enterprise tries to stop an asteroid from hitting the planet.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Another "astounding" episode. That's gonna hurt to re-watch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks.

PvK

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

There were other episodes as well, the Indian one, where Kirk looses his memorie. The Corbonie Manuaver were we discover that there was a really ancient race of exploriers. The Doomsday Machine ws another good episode.

By all counts the Quadrant that Earth and the other races are in is filled with younger races. The Dominion was founded 10,000 years before man walked the earth, and the Borg are realatively a young race at 2,000 years old. (The Borg are explained in better detail in Shatners Star Trek books. Most are rather good and explain a lot about Star Trek V & VI and his death scene in Star Trek VII. A good read.)

No one knew what happened to the Enterprise A after she was decommissioned. She was given away and later destroyed.

What about the loop holes? Scotty knew Kirk had been lost to the Nexus, but when he was rescued from the transported buffer in TNG era, his first words were about Kirk coming to rescue him. Ever think about that? Tis explained somewhere, Scotty actually goes back in time, "after" he his ship crashes on the Dysonsphere. He removes any record of the ships loss from all federation data banks and goes on with his life up to the point where Kirk is lost. He knew the future, but could not tell any one, that is why he knew that Kirk was gone after the accident on Enterprise B.

What ever happened to Spock and the Romulan Rebels? Did they ever succeed?

These kind of question are what books are for. The actors that played these parts are now too old to base movies off of.

What about Savik? Checkov became Commander And Chief Starfleet, but what about Sulu?

NOTE to Fyron: One of the many reasons I hated voyager was that story they did where Tuvok was on the Excelcior at the time that ST VI was occuring and they killed off a character that you can clearly see in the back ground in the final bridge shot of Sulu's good bye to Kirk. Voyage lacked on many levels consistant detail and story continuity with the other series and movies. (The character that should have been used was the one played by Christan Slater.)

Don't get me wrong there were some fine episodes of Voyager, but not very many.

[ January 05, 2004, 06:23: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

AT, no Star Trek series has good continuity. Voyager was no exception. Actually counting the different fill ins they used as random crew members is just being anally retentive and serves no real purpose. Who the hell cares that they did not use the exact same fill ins every single time? Big deal. Star Trek is rife with holes. The only thing that is consistent in Star Trek is that it is not consistent.

[ January 05, 2004, 06:25: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Very true, but Voyager really blew it out of proportion.

I think that Voyager could have been a lot better, but the one thing that got me was that no one cared to pay attention to the details.

A count was kept of the crew members seen on the show, and after seven years that count was over 200 while the ship only had a crew of something like 135.

The ship looked as new as the day it was crissoned despite not having resources to reapir hull damage.

The Shuttles craft count. They blew up quite a few. (This was eventually touched on in one episode where they mentioned they were building replacements.) Good catch.

The fact that they had replactor rationing when they could eat all the food they wanted in the Holo-suites.

I could go on.

The point is despite having the potential, voyager became far less than it could have become.

STNG was very consistant, as was DS9. Enterprise is also doing an ok job but who knows what will happen there.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well has any one looked yet?

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Enterprise wrecked any consistency with anything in other ST series. It is a good thing they dropped the Star Trek from its title... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

TNG had a number of inconsistencies as well... though it was often far more silly than necessary... a kid as a bridge crewman? Yeah... sure... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I said before, that is just being anally retentive. Who the hell cares that they used different extras? It doesn't matter. It would have been much more expensive to keep the same extras throughout the entire 7 year run. Actual named crewmen don't come close to 135.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They found plenty of resources. Anything on the hull plating could be replicated from any source matter, including intermittent dust particiles in space. All it takes is some time and energy. When they were in extended periods of fighting and had no time to replicate and repair, the ship accrued plenty of battle damage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that was mentioned fairly early on...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Food in the holo suites is holographic, and could not be eaten to gain nutrients. If it were made to actually be editable and digestible, it would require the use of replicators, and would use up some of the crewman's replicator rations. There is no inconsistency there at all.

[ January 05, 2004, 06:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Oh man you have just bitten off more than you can chew.... Do you really want to get into a debate about these points with me?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Who care are the people who watch the show and try to understand the inconsistancy and lack of detail that something as stupendious as this breeches. They are out in the middle of no where, yet they manage to show they had over 200 crew memeber, over 200 of them, even thought they had only 135 or so? This is a HUGE fricking plot foul up and yes they should have paid closer attention to this. Cost be damned, it completely underminded the credibility of the show.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Although this was lightly touched on in a few episodes, it more often than not resulted in them loosing more than they had gained. The little that they did explain gaining could not support the grand effort that you have depicted while the ship still was operating under repulator rations.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In regard to the shuttles, it was not mentioned until season seven. Before that it was a plot hole that kept coming up over and over again so finally the producers/writers decided to handle it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And we are back again to the old continuity factor.

Holo suites and replacators are a spin off of Transporter technology according to Trek Cannon. The food in a holo suite is the same food that a replacator creates. They drink in holo suites, they can eat in them, they can have sex in them. The food and drink are as real as if they came from a replacator. The show made a point to stress that holo suites run off of a differant power source than the replicators. This was a huge hole continuity wise because it was established in both STGN and DS9 that holosuites can generate replicated food. This was never explained in Voyager thus it is one of those things that are open to debate.

Voyager blew the hell out of common sense continuity. Enterprise is walking a very fine line, but the series is not yet complete and they do have an out. Do to the temperal cold war, all of the events in Enterprise may never actually happen in the end. We simply do not know yet.

About the kid on the bridge of Enterprise in TNG, well you gotta remember that the first two season of TNG sucked horribly because Gene was running things. He might have been a gifted man and the creater of Star Trek, but he could not write an episode worth watching. This gets back to the conflict thing I mentioned earlier.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Wait wait, are you actually complaining that Voyager used to many different extras? Not actual named characters but just the people walking by in the hallways. Dude, they are just scenery. Think of them as mobile plants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have to agree with Fyron here. That attitude is bit over the top. I mean plot holes are one thing, but really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Next are we going to start complaining that the show was actually filmed on a soundstage in Burbank and the producers didn't actually build a lifesized working Voyager starship and shoot the show on location in space? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Or perhaps they should have used an actual Vulcan actor to play Tu'Vok, instead of a human in latex ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well has any one looked yet? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those are truly awesome ships man. I wish I could do stuff like that. By the way, you said you used DOGA for that stuff? Is it a freeware program, and if so can I get the site for it off of you? Thanks

Renegade 13

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Atrocities, great ships, finish the damn set and get them on the download site.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They reproduce http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well when you put it that way.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif it does seem kinda dumb.

Re: Do you like Klingons?
 

Renegade, DOGA is available for download from: http://www.doga.co.jp/english/ and there are addon packs also available. Look in the third sticky thread from the top, toward the bottom of the info post for DOGA links.

I recommend that you pay the $40.00 bucks and registar DOGA.

I will work on the set as I get time and once it is finished I will be more than happy to make it available for those who want it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And thanks for the complements guys.