Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

For anyone that didn't get the news...

Ok, I am having a bad night. We have to wait on a new empire from
Nodachi. In addition, one player has raised a question about my changing the
game settings from 5K starting resources to 100K at the Last minute. He
feels that would have affected his empire setup. If anyone agrees with
this and would like to send me a revised empire file with the
understanding that it's to be a 100K start, I will use that for the restart.

Geoschmo

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

The game is restarted. Not sure why the mail isn't working. Must be related to the DNS problem. There is a new turn and a new news message.

I attempted a compromise and went with 20K starting resources. The people without natural merchants are going to have to plan their first few turns carefully, but at least there is a posibility now that they can keep their empire economy from crashing if they play it right. As I realized with 5K there was no chance. It simply was impossible to build a space port and a single mineral fac before the storage would be depleted.

I hope noone minds too much that I changed the settings without asking. The reason I didn't was that honestly I saw no reason to change your empire file so taking a poll to me would have been another uneccesary delay. In my mind anyone that took Natural Merchants would have still taken natural merchants, whether the starting resources were 5k, 20k, or 100k. Those that did not take natural merchants would have been screwed with a 5K start because of a simple mistake in empire setup. That's no fun for them, and no fun for anyone beating them either.

If I had this to do over again from the start I would probably give people 4 faciliites instead of zero.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

You can count me as one of those dips who didn't realize the value in taking the natural merchants trait. At least I know that all my spaceports will be useless to everyone when y'all capture them!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Email sent to catch everyone up to speed...

Players,

The game has been restarted, and the new turn is on PBW now. We are having an apparent DNS problem that is affecting the turn notice emails and the game news from being sent. Also, to get to the site and download your turn you will have to connect to http://69.3.206.249

Let me go through everything that happened step-by-step so noone has any confusion.

I created the first turn Last night. At the Last minute I realised that anyone that had decided not to choose the natural merchants racial trait would be totally screwed with this game as advertised because with only 5k starting resources you would not have enough to build even a space port and one mineral miner facilitiy. The result would be that your economy would crash and you could get next to nothing done. You'd have nothing in storage and 200 per turn coming in. At that rate it would take years (maybe decades) just to get enough mineral facilites built to be able to build a space yard while the players that happened to take natural merchants would be building up almost normally except for a few turns to rebuild their homeworlds.

I felt this was an unfair situation, so I decided to give everyone 100K starting resources. This would give you really 50K in storage to play with. I made this change at the Last minute and notified everyone by news along with the first turn.

I did not think anyone that had chosen natural merchants would decide to not take it just because they now had 100k to play with, and it was not my intention to allow every one that did not take it to change their mind after the game started since I was giving them more resources, they could avoid the econ crashing by a careful use of those resources in the first few turns. That is why I did not let everyone know before starting. I felt doing so would be an unneccesary delay in the game.

After the first turn went out I relized a couple people had duplicate shipsets. This I felt was sufficent reason for a restart and I sent a message asking those people to send me new empire files.

In the mean time one person expressed the opinion that I should have given people the opportunity to change their empires becuase of the higher amount of resources at start. I still don't understand it, but nonetheless I sent a message offering that opportunity. Noone, including that person, contacted me expressing a desire to do so.

This morning I restarted the game with the new shipsets and decided on a compromise and gave everyone 20K starting resources. This is enough that a non-Natural Merchant player will have enough to build enough facilities to prevent the economy from crashing, without giveing everybody full storage of resources.

I was not trying to take away the advantage of the natural resource trait. I still feel that it was a wise use of 1000 points for this game. But those players that decided not to take it at least now won't be totally screwed.

The game is ready to play now. I see no reason to do anymore restarts or allow anyone to revise their empire. To this point noone has revised their empires except for changing shipsets, so noone should feel that anyone has an advantage over them. Anyone that took Natural Merchants shuld not feel their choice has less value now, and no one that did not take natural merchants shuld feel they have no chance to compete now that they have 20K resources.

At least that's how I see it. If anyone disagrees and feels they should have another restart and a chance to revise their empire please let me know why and we will discuss it. Perhaps I am missing something that will help me see that point of view.

Otherwise, let's play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think you are a dip. Given enough resources at start to build a space port and a couple mineral faciliites not taking natural merchants equates to about a five turn head start for everybody else. That is big, but not everyone will agree that it's worth 1000 points. It depends on your play style, and how long you expect to Last in the game how much of a difference that five turns will make.

On the other hand, with only 5K reasources to start, natural merchants would have been an absolute neccesity. Without it you would not have enough to build a space port and a couple mineral facs and your economy dies. The result would be everybody that didn't take it would be dead in the water. I just don't see this as very fun, even for those of use that took it. It's a crudy way to win if your opponent can't even get off their homeworld.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

A while back, you implied that you had run games wherein the players started with *only* a set number of colony ships, and no planets.

I am interested in starting a game like that (I always have been, really) but not sure how exactly such a game would be created. Camn you tell me how I would go about doing that? For that matter, how did you make it so the TGE III game starts like it does?

Thanks,

Alarik

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Sigh.....

Only turn 2 and already past the turn deadline.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Start the game and control all human empires. Build 3 colony ships, then scrap everything on the HW, space the people, and abandon it. Then, once all empires have just the 3 colony ships, put it on PBW and get going.

With TGE III, Geo used a mod to generate turn one that made the HW planets have 1 max pop and 0 max facility spaces, so they start out empty. Then, he processed a turn with stock SE4 to get it back to stock and uploaded that as the first turn on PBW.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sigh.....
Me miss autoturns.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

I am SO looking forward to next turn. I think I'll have...A facility!

woo hoo!

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

and you'll say 'NI!' until you get one?

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

No, but I will talk incessantly about shrubbery and herrings. Especially the ones in cream sauce. Yummy!


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

alarik, I'm figuring I'll have a spaceyard by some time late next week, or the week following that...Woohoo!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

you're just trying to scare me...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

At the rate the game is progressing, two of the first three turns having already fallen behind schedule, it'll be next month before I see my first shipyard.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

I am trying to keep up with it. New turn available now. Only a couple hours late. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Since you missed my question in the PBW thread... when is the timed processing part of automatic turn processing going to be turned back on for PBW?

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't know yet.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you please add me too. I've tried e-mailimg this request, but it must not have made it.
Thanks

Electrum

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you please add me too. I've tried e-mailimg this request, but it must not have made it.
Thanks

Electrum </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(1) I'll need to get approval of Gandalph and Alneyan and Geoschmo (currently, the only other rated players) since the game has started. They need to email me their private vote. I'll need a unanimous vote to let you count the game. Since the game has barely started, there might not be much disagreement

(2) Please click the link in my siggy and test sending me a message. If it doesn't work, I need to know. Thanks!

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you please add me too. I've tried e-mailimg this request, but it must not have made it.
Thanks

Electrum </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(1) I'll need to get approval of Gandalph and Alneyan and Geoschmo (currently, the only other rated players) since the game has started. They need to email me their private vote. I'll need a unanimous vote to let you count the game. Since the game has barely started, there might not be much disagreement

(2) Please click the link in my siggy and test sending me a message. If it doesn't work, I need to know. Thanks! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sent out another E-mail (this makes 4). Please let me know if it comes through.
Thanks

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

How big are the turn files i wouldnt mind a play by web game.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Turn files vary in size immensely. Some are as small as 100 kb, and as large as 700kb or so. But my PBW experience is limited, as I've just gotten into it recently. So those figures could be off a bit.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Let me ask something :

For all the rated players, they have to win the game alone, not as an alliance right ?
If a rated player wins the game in an alliance with a non rated player, this game won't count for him rating wise.

Which means a player applying to be rated cannot be trusted for an alliance in the long term.
Did I get it right ?

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, as far as Ratings for that game go you ignore any none rated players in the game when calculating results. So if a rated player teams up with non-rated players and wins the game he still gets full credit for the win.

However, I am not sure how Slynky would handle a game where a couple of rated players teamed up together for the victory. I imagine he has some calulation for team victories, but I am not sure how it works.


EDIT: I may have spoken too soon. The Ratings rules say it has to be Last man standing. I think you could still team with a non-rated player since they aren't considered for Ratings puprposes, but I guess you can't team with a rated player. At least not all the way to the end.

Geoschmo

[ January 15, 2004, 11:15: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

I'd just be happy if the turns could run http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif . Last turn took me about 20 seconds to do.

(Why oh why do I get into these games with so many players you can ALWAYS be sure the turn will run late because SOMEONE will always be negligent about doing their turn on time?)

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Once again, sorry about that. Turn is running now.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

All the rated players have responded and the results are unanimous: It's OK for Electrum to count this game as a rated game.

Thanks for taking the time to message me, guys.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Actually, the joke is on me. Apparently, the "Experiment" is seeing how many consequetive turns a game can have that are beyond the time limit.

Now, for a lot of people, I guess it's no big deal. But for me, unless someone is going on a trip or vacation or their PC has broken (or some kind of excuse), a lackadaisical approach to completing turns on time tends to ruin the game for me a bit. Take the pleasure out of it, if you get my drift. I fail to understand why people sign up for games and can't even make the deadlines of the single-digit turns...where it takes about a half a minute to complete a turn.

So, knowing that things will only get worse, I'd like to advertise my position for takeover. I can't enjoy a game where I am eternally irked by continued lateness.

It's a good position...I've been in 1st place since the start of the game. Someone should take it over so that I don't have to pull out of the game (and therefore "hurt" the game for the other players).

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

If it's a problem Slynky, just withdraw now. The Last couple turns have been held up by Goodops. Don't know him. This is the first game I've seen him in. If he misses any more I'll boot him. But if we are holding you up, by all means do what you have to do. I'll just let the AI play for anyone that wants to quit and it won't hold us up at all.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Update:

During the SY build, I've fallen to 4th place. (not wanting to be accused of false advertising http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not necessarily holding me up. It's just that it's going to be a slow tedius game in the beginning. Originally, it was posted at 24-hour TA time, I think. But changed to 36 'cause some people requested a longer time. And, we can't seem to meet that.

I guess it's just the anal-retentive part of me that gets irritated by this sort of thing. People who make a committment and don't keep it (for a reason I don't know about, admittedly). I find I enjoy games much more where the players always get the turn done on time.

Now, just so people don't think I'm some sort of butthole, Master Belisarius posted that he needed to be gone for week and our game was put on hold. I have no problem with that sort of thing at all.

Anyway, I don't want to pull. I'll wait till someone volunteers to take the position over. I'd hate for the AI to scrap the SY that is building in order to make something else http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Well anyway, I doubt you are going to find a replecment. With as many people as this game has pretty much anybody that wanted in got in. I don't want anyone to be unhappy with the game. If it's intolerable for you don't felel like you are going to let anyone down by jumping out. Some people wanted AI anyway. This way they will get them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I sent a news email just now to try and encourage people to play or drop out. Did you get it? I didn't get it myself. Not sure if the problem is sending or me not receiving.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It has nothing to do with negligence in the vast majority of cases, but with real life issues that cause everyone to not have the same amount of free time to devote to gaming that you do. Not everyone has the same schedule.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but Slynky's point is still valid. If people can't play turns at that rate they shouldn't join the game in the first place. Or if something comes up they can let everybody else know. Just not playing and not saying anything is not cool at all.

But this is a problem that really has no solution. All we can do is deal with it.

Geoschmo

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I got it. I appreciate your efforts at trying to keep the game on schedule. I know it's aggravating.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Yes, they do not have the time to play their turn, but they will always have the time to go email everyone that they will not be able to play their turn for X hours or whatever? That is just not practical in most situations for short delays.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but Slynky's point is still valid. If people can't play turns at that rate they shouldn't join the game in the first place. Or if something comes up they can let everybody else know. Just not playing and not saying anything is not cool at all.

But this is a problem that really has no solution. All we can do is deal with it.

Geoschmo </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I gotta echo Geo's comment. I try to forcast my real life needs with PBW games and join accordingly. Those who know me know I'm rarely late with a turn (maybe once in 500 turns). But, as Geo said, there's no real solution. Which is why I said I'd rather turn the position over to another player. And also why I said in an earlier post, "Why oh why...". ('cause they just sound so interesting but I need to keep telling myself, "DON'T get in games with more than 6 people!"... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For short delays I don't think anyone would mind Fyron. In this case though we are looking at a guy who hasn't played in three days and hasn't left a message. And you don't have to email everyone, but you could let the game owner know.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

So boot him and get over it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for letting me in.
Slynky. Did you ever get my e-mail?

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Well, Goodoops withdrew. As soon as Gandalph plays his turn we'll get another one. Tweleve hours? Is it possible? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for letting me in.
Slynky. Did you ever get my e-mail? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never did get an email. If the email isn't successful...you should get a "kickback" message. Are you saying it just goes into "space" and that's the Last you "see" of it?

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for letting me in.
Slynky. Did you ever get my e-mail? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never did get an email. If the email isn't successful...you should get a "kickback" message. Are you saying it just goes into "space" and that's the Last you "see" of it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pretty much! I've tried sending to myself (an alternate account) to make sure my settings were OK and it went through.
Go figure!

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

If you need someone to take over an empire in this game, I'm willing to give it a go....Greybeard

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Well, someone took over for Goodoops already. But if we get another opening I'll try to remember to let you know.

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I advertised my position several days ago. It's still up for takeover if you're interested. I believe it's an above-average empire (one colony down, a ship coming off the line this turn, a tech breakthru this turn, and what appears to be a good location on the map).

You're welcome to it. (I don't think there is anything wrong with the position, I should just never join games with lots of people...though this one has been running OK lately)

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I advertised my position several days ago. It's still up for takeover if you're interested. I believe it's an above-average empire (one colony down, a ship coming off the line this turn, a tech breakthru this turn, and what appears to be a good location on the map).

You're welcome to it. (I don't think there is anything wrong with the position, I should just never join games with lots of people...though this one has been running OK lately) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would be honored to take over for you. I will check the open games list and apply when the postion is open...Greybeard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

There she is, Greybeard. Have fun!

Re: New PBW game - Great Experiment 3
 

Woohoo!! I'm about to launch my first ship! Look out universe, here we come!

To infinity....And beyond!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif