Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's true that the faster something happens the faster your reactions are. just measure your reactions on SE. You'll probably use measurements of at least 5 seconds. Now, check them out on say, Half-Life. Descisions are made sometimes in less than a second. And yet, your sense of time has also changed, which you'll notice if you pay enough attention.

I don't know what the efficience graph for speed vs reflexes might be, though.

[ April 05, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well as of course you know it's not the picture that makes us safer it's giving the guy a ticket so maybe he will slow down in the future.

If it is a taxation it is a taxation on you not me. I have no problem with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif In fact I'd encourage the government to do this. I like government services someone else is paying for.

Photo rader won't stop the guy doing 110 in the 100 zone (BTW this guy doing 110 will be the slowest guy on the road if you happen to be driving in Ontario) But it will stop the guy doing 130 or 140. (which is probably closer to the average speed people drive on the QEW and 400 highways)

IMO photo radar should be brough back and set to hand out tickets to anyone going more than about 10km/h over the speed limit

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's true that the faster something happens the faster your reactions are. just measure your reactions on SE. You'll probably use measurements of at least 5 seconds. Now, check them out on say, Half-Life. Descisions are made sometimes in less than a second. And yet, your sense of time has also changed, which you'll notice if you pay enough attention.

I don't know what the efficience graph for speed vs reflexes might be, though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like to see the proof of that. however even if true is the difference significant enough that a guy doing 130km/h when the moose is spoted crossing the road will be able to stop as quick as the guy doing 100km/h?

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My understanding was that this was a 7- and a 9-year old, and no sun was mentioned in the original example IIRC. Any 9-year old (or even 7-year old I would think) should be able to open windows and doors. If the car doesn't let people out then it is severely mis-designed, but I really doubt there are cars that let you imprison people in them to smother to death. Supposedly (and I'd like to see an actual article) the parent was cited for not just leaving their children alone. It's hard for me to imagine a neighborhood where it would be unsafe to leave 9-year-old kids in a grocery parking lot (assuming no deadly sunshine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ) yet there are enough police to justifiably harrass people.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

You can get people to wear seatbelt and helmets and not to endanger their children or themselves by educating them, and that's the correct way to do it. If officers see something they think is actually dangerous to themselves but not to others, of course they can go tell people about it. But local governments are using these gimicks as excuses to increase revenue by harassing the people they are supposed to serve. Fundamentally, people have the right to endanger themselves by not wearing protective gear. If parents feel safe enough about an area to leave their kids somewhere, and the police actually disagree, then they can guard the kids and go clue in the parents, but a citation (points for their quota and cash for the city coffers)?

As for the argument that society stands to lose terrible amounts of money because it provides emergency care which would cost more if people aren't punished for not wearing seatbelts and bike helmets... a couple of things. The main thing is that's a perverted money-grubbing point of view in itself, and two wrongs do not make a right. Society's sloppy choices of medical rules and economics do not justify intrusive laws to mitigate their expenses. One much better solution is to deny insurance and/or issue fines for medical expenses for injuries when the person was not using whatever safety equipment.

Even better would be to torpedo the current insurance rackets, but that's a whole other topic.

As for automatic speeding radar and cameras, that's Orwellian BS. Cameras all over everywhere are invasive. Finding people guilty by using an automatic device is also bad justice. Speed limits are also nonsense. Most speed limits are much lower than the actual safe limit for a reasonable vehicle in good conditions, yet the limit is applied as if it were some sort of edict from Hitler that must be obeyed. No. If police are there to serve and protect (rather than to torment and stuff the local coffers), then they should only be ticketing people who are actually doing something dangerous to others. There are plenty of actual dangerous drivers to catch. But there are way too many people being pulled over for doing say 70 in a 55, on a sunny day on a straight wide open highway in a high-performance car. Meanwhile some Winebago in the rain in traffic is held to the same mindless limit. It's simply unjust.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

I don't know the exact wording, but speed limits are not absolute. At least in CA the law is written that the fastest "safe speed" is allowed. So that Winnebago might get cited and that sports car might not.

Anyway I think that people who don't use helmets or seatbelts should suffer the same consequences as say drug Users. Whatever that may be.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean you think they should get the munchies? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">... with a driver who is alert, has resonable reflexes and no *******s cutting him off/ animals crossing the road/ patches of black ice or any other incident which may force him to take action to avoid an accident. In other words ideal conditions which is rarely the case.

Which of the following scenarios is more likely to result in an accident.

A - Micheal Schumacher is driving along on a nice sunny day at 140km/h in his Toyota Matrix when an old man in a hat crosses over the lane and stalls in his lane.

B - Ralph Schumacher is driving along on a nice sunny day at 100km/h in his Toyota Matrix when an old man in a hat crosses over the lane and stalls in his lane.

If you answer B then you have just justified the existance of speed limits. If you answered A then, well, you'd be wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Would you guys who seem to feel speed limits should be removed really feel safer out on the roads if there was no speed limit??

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't need to buy it, but my personal experience, and latest studies about that "microsleep" confirm that. Similar studies have confirmed the unability for fast reactions to unexpected situations if under dull routine. Considering speed there is, as always, a wide space between two extremes, and as always the optimums is in the middle here too.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, falling into a second-Lasting sleep causes something unexpected - at least for the driver after he reopens his eyes.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That it happens at all is more likely under certain circumstances than under others. Drivers are not roboters, so driving is not physics only.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That it happens at all is more likely under certain circumstances than under others. Drivers are not roboters, so driving is not physics only. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How can you even argue this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif ALL other factors being equal the guy drving faster is more likely to be unable to avoid an accident when some incedent occurs and if an accident is unavoidable is likely to have a much more serious accident. Please prove this wrong.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, a moose standing on a highway is one of the most common incidents that can happen while driving... Near-sleep and slow reactions cause a lot of dangerous situations that just wouldn't arise if the driver had better attention. THAT is the difference.
Some figures, rounded for ease of reading:
Traffic deaths USA 2002: > 40k, pop 290M
Germany, no speed limit, 130km/h ~ 80mph recommended but not really normal, traffic deaths 2002: < 7k, pop 80M.
Same percentages given, USA should have about 15k less deaths. Explain that with your simplistic "speed kills" theory.

[ April 05, 2004, 22:45: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I have driven on for example the Autobahn with no speed limit and apparently good drivers, and I felt no danger. Bad driving is the main cause of danger, in my experience, and rarely is the bad driving I see simply a case of someone exceeding a certain speed.

Moreover, I see technical speeding violations all the time, which are not at all dangerous. Often times the general traffic, even cement mixers and city busses, exceeds the speed limit by a fair degree, without causing any actual hazard. If they were all rigidly adhering to the inappropriately low speed limit, I tend to agree it would be more dangerous. Many of the speed limits were set back in the 50's-60's. Have you guys driven the cars from back then? More often than not they were huge lumbering beasts with attrociously blocked vision and awful handling, that feel like piloting a coal barge or something. If the limits were considered safe for those things, or for busses, 18-wheelers and winnebagos, then how can it be right to have cops hiding behind corners with laser speed traps to catch modern performance cars going 10-15 mph over those limits on open roads with no hazardous conditions at all? It's just a way to get money for the local coffers, and for rule-oriented bozos to chide and abuse reasonable citizens.

I don't think that speed limits shouldn't exist where they make sense and are enforced intelligently. People probably shouldn't drive 140 where there is a chance of anyone trying to cross the road. Good drivers though know their limits and don't let their control limits exceed their vision, etc.

There should be laws and police should bust people who are causing a hazard, but the standard is often applied rigidly to limits in cases where they don't have much if anything to do with safety.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, a moose standing on a highway is one of the most common incidents that can happen while driving... [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah the old "make fun of the other guy to proove your point" rebutal. The moose was just an example.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In your scenario, I don't think either skilled driver would be driving so fast in a situation where they couldn't see what was ahead of them and give themselves ample room to avoid an accident. In driving school it's called "leave yourself an out". As professional race drivers, if they didn't do this, probably neither one of them would have had any success in the sport.

So I agree only that if you assume a driver is driving wrecklessly, that going faster would be more dangerous. Except that if one of those skilled drivers were going 140 rather than 100, then given their skill, they would be doing so in a situation where they could see the full field ahead of their stopping/dodging distance.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How fast should they drive in this case and how do you stop them? Of course it's not the good drivers i'm worried about. Around here I think the bad drivers far outnumber the good ones.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was just pointing out that it was a very, very bad example. There are situations when the danger of something - or someone - unexpected appearing on the road, and I agree to the fact that speed saves lives then. But there are other situations where the dangers just lie elsewhere. Speed limits do not only don't make sense there, but are also nearly exclusively controlled there where they don't make sense, and you justify it with a situation that is totally rare and unlikely.
And besides, how about the figures I presented? Ah, the old "ignore the facts if they contradict your opinion" rebutal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

[ April 05, 2004, 23:03: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My God do people really drive like this were you live??? If so they are a heck of a lot better than the drivers around here. (PS the point of the driver names in my example was only to remove differences in driver skill from the example)

Personally I think the speed limits around here are a nice approximation of the safe driving speed. I would say anyone going more than about 20km faster than that IS driving recklessly. ie people more often than not zip down the road near were I live at 100-120km/h. This is a non-divided highway with lots of driveways and side street that front on to it. Personaly I think anything that would slow these guys down and make them pay is a good idea.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

booom

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was just pointing out that it was a very, very bad example. There are situations when the danger of something - or someone - unexpected appearing on the road, and I agree to the fact that speed saves lives then. But there are other situations where the dangers just lie elsewhere. Speed limits do not only don't make sense there, but are also nearly exclusively controlled there where they don't make sense, and you justify it with a situation that is totally rare and unlikely.
And besides, how about the figures I presented? Ah, the old "ignore the facts if they contradict your opinion" rebutal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Accidents are pretty much always caused because something unexpectantly appears in front of you. Oh sure the reason something unexpectantly appears in front of you could be cause the guy in front of you dozed off. but when you find yourself in this situation would you rather your car was going fast or slow?

Statistics can be used to prove anything. There could be numerous reason for the numbers you quote. It could be as simple as Germans are better drivers, have better designed roads, safer cars, better traffic laws etc etc etc. give me a budget and a year to study the issue and I'll get back to you.

[ April 05, 2004, 23:15: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How fast should they drive in this case and how do you stop them? Of course it's not the good drivers i'm worried about. Around here I think the bad drivers far outnumber the good ones. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In the case where there is a road crossing or limited sight distance, you should drive at a speed that allows you to stop before you reach the hazard or unseen area - don't get ahead of your stopping distance.

The bad drivers are definitely the problem, and ya, frequently US drivers aren't so hot, and there are a lot of bozos. I guess if you are failing to teach them to drive well, then rules are something of a substitute, but I still think the good drivers should not be punished for technical violations of outdated speed limits.

In PvK's utopia, while the existing 1950-70 defined speed limits could apply as a baseline, I would allow drivers to take optional qualification tests (without high fees) and related courses which would train them in safe driving above typical limits, and give them clearances to drive in the tested vehicle in good conditions at a certain degree over the speed limit. Drivers who noticed that certain posted limits seemed ludicrous could also point out any such locations for suggested re-review using a nice DOT web site.

Actual definitely hazardous driving would still be cause for arrest with fairly serious consequences and/or mandatory safe driving courses.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd prefer not at all finding myself in that situation. For instance not among drivers nearly dozing off while travelling totally empty highways on cruise control.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Start with regular, mandatory sight, hearing and reaction tests. Surprising how many especially older drivers who are blind as a mole insist that they do not need glasses, and especially not for driving. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ April 05, 2004, 23:27: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My God do people really drive like this were you live??? If so they are a heck of a lot better than the drivers around here. (PS the point of the driver names in my example was only to remove differences in driver skill from the example)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some do. Some don't. There are many bad drivers, and some outright dangerous ones. But the way to find the ones who need educating and perhaps punishment is not to measure their speed with a machine and apply it strictly to an out-dated speed limit that takes nothing else into account. The ones doing actually hazardous things are the ones who need talking to, and they are not so hard to detect.

Quote:

Personally I think the speed limits around here are a nice approximation of the safe driving speed. I would say anyone going more than about 20km faster than that IS driving recklessly. ie people more often than not zip down the road near were I live at 100-120km/h. This is a non-divided highway with lots of driveways and side street that front on to it. Personaly I think anything that would slow these guys down and make them pay is a good idea.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're probably right about your situation. I've driven in British Columbia and Alberta and I usually didn't think the limits were much lower than appropriate. But I also didn't notice much over-enforcement. I did notice a few maniac drivers, but generally they seemed pretty competant and safe. There are some radar/camera speed trap warnings, which I do think is generally a bad idea unless really necessary, but even there the traffic seemed to be courageously pushing past the limit to what seemed like a safe degree.

My impression is that in Canada the police are usually pretty good about giving you something like 10 kph + 10% of the posted limit leeway to exceed, which is usually pretty reasonable. A UK officer friend also says that's their guideline. There are many places in the USA though where 5 mph over will get you a ticket, even when the limit is inappropriate and the conditions are utterly harmless.

Again though, I'm not saying there shouldn't be limits at all, or that all limits should be increased. I'm mainly saying people shouldn't be cited for just exceeding a limit safely. Get the actually hazardous folks, and leave the letter-of-the-law-breakers alone.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

Comparing traffic deaths as a percentage of a nation's population is flawed and leads one to wrong conclusion. One could probably find some third world country that would make Germany's fatality rate look as bad as the US's being compared to Germany's simply because so few of the population have cars. What is more relevant is the deaths per million miles driven. This puts everything on a more even playing field for statistical comparsion. I don't have the stats handy, but when looked at that way, the US fares much better. One factor in the US death rate is simply that the population puts itself at risk more than the rest of the world by driving more miles (the result of cheap gas and no public transportation).

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

How about we keep hazardous driving arrests, throw out speeding tickets, and just drive a lot less. Let's build beautiful medieval European style pedestrian oriented cities, and turn the sprawling suburban communities and strip malls back into wilderness!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yea that's probably about right. The rest of your post I pretty much agree with too.

Just in case it got lost in all the Posts I don't think we should have photo radar set to catch guys doing 105 in a 100 zone. It should be set at some point maybe 10-20 over the posted limit. Pretty much the same tolerances the cops use. And there are many places were setting it up would be an unjust cash grab (a 30km/h limit on a major downtown through road in Vancouver comes to mind. Clearly a case were the speed limit is set not for safty but to raise cash)

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was 55 back in the 70s during that OPEC blockade, but it has been 65 for quite some time now, with 70 or 75 in some rarely traveled areas.

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

Oh but PvK these laws are in place to protect you from your freedoms.

In a society that has to have warning lables on electricle appliances warning people not to use them in the shower or bath should say it all.

A free society is a dumb one, so we need these laws to save us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ April 05, 2004, 12:57: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

PVK that would be hard in many parts of NA.

Most of Canada is designed around the car.

I am lucky that I have only a 20 KM communite so I can ride my bike ( I wear a helmet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

But I know of one guy who has a 180 KM communite

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

Heh. Sure, but that's not exactly suburban sprawl. Living in the countryside is one thing. Replacing the countryside with non-stop pedestrian-hostile automobile-dependant clone housing is another.

I think downtown Vancouver B.C. is very nice, though the huge eastward expanse - Burnaby and (egad) Metrotown http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif are pretty nightmarish.

Mainly I was thinking of what has happened around Seattle (where I grew up, and am currently) in the Last 20 years. The population multiplied, and many forests have been sacrificed to "developments" with attrocious modern clone housing in cul-de-sacs and strip malls - communities for automobiles. Dreadful.

PvK

Re: OT: What Has The World Come To
 

Ok, how to word this.

Why is it that people who simply leave there children in their locked Mini van to watch scooby doo would warrent being arrested, sighted for child neglect and abandonment, have their children taken from them, and their lives virtually destroyed while nothing is said or done about the parenting skill of people like the Ozborne's? (sp)

[ April 06, 2004, 04:44: Message edited by: Atrocities ]