Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have not read the articles of the Geneva convention, so I cannot comment on each of them in particualar. However, with just my passing knowledge of them, I think I'd have to disagree with your statement.

Just taking as an example a war where one country has a tremendous military advantage over the other. The conventional war will be over in days, but the guerilla conflict could Last for a long time. The weaker force would have to break the will of the larger force, as they cannot hope to win a military victory. To break their will, they would almost assuredly have to commit atrocities against the soldiers of the invading army before the invading army can break the will of the people.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Interesting notes about Germany: Nazism was voted into power with less than 50% of the votes. The stance was rebuilding the economy and protection from things outside of the country. Early changes were in defense of national security. It was only later when they discovered that "temporary actions" werent being removed that many started getting nervous.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then it's better to die or just give up the fight. If my country were invaded and I were fighting a guerilla resistance, I would kill enemy soldiers at every opportunity and using whatever sneaky methods were available to me, but to commit human rights abuses beyond that..?

Well, if I were to win by such methods then I would no longer be the same person at the end of it and the country would no longer be the same country I had tried to defend. It would not be a worthwhile victory.

Maybe I would feel differently if I were in that situation, but that wouldn't make it right.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's hypocritical. 'You listen to me, but I won't listen to you.'

[ May 19, 2004, 20:15: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

good point narf. unfortunately, he's not listening...

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then it's better to die or just give up the fight. If my country were invaded and I were fighting a guerilla resistance, I would kill enemy soldiers at every opportunity and using whatever sneaky methods were available to me, but to commit human rights abuses beyond that..?

Well, if I were to win by such methods then I would no longer be the same person at the end of it and the country would no longer be the same country I had tried to defend. It would not be a worthwhile victory.

Maybe I would feel differently if I were in that situation, but that wouldn't make it right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I hear you, Dogscoff. I certainly wouldn't want to find out.
Maybe that's why they say war changes people. I'll have to ponder that.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you are right. It is the precicion and efficiency that makes germans to the worst criminals in this time (and the fact that they loose the conflict). But i don't understand why and how my generation of german adults is responsible for this crime. To criticise Israelian politics brings you automaticaly near to the position of Antisemitism, even though many of israelian doings are not so far from what Stalin has do with ethnical minorities in russia. And why do the USA protect this behaviour?

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Blaming Germans today for what past generations did is as stupid as antisemitism blaming jews for what their ancient ancestors might have once done.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

I have to say that I've thought about this subject quite a bit. And I've come to the conclusion that if my home country was invaded, I would kill enemy soldiers at any opportunity, while remaining hidden, if possible. However, I would not force them to suffer before they died. Their death would be clean and (relatively) painless. A quick shot.

Now that might sound a little scary to some of you, but I would do whatever it took to protect my friends and family....within limits. It is not worth degrading and dehumanizing yourself to expel an enemy from your homeland. In the end, you would end up being a worse person than if you had died.

Personally, I would rather die than commit atrocities against any other human being.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Like many such "moral" questions, the reason for doing the right thing is often not just "to be good" or even "to be able to live with oneself".

In this example, commiting attrocities as the occupied underdog resistance fighter may be very likely to result in terrible retribution upon one's own people (a typical historical result) - likely worse than non-attrocious resistance would. When the enemy has your people at their mercy, it's not the best time to play "who can inflict the worst attrocities". Even if somehow the enemy would not reciprocate, the tactical value of attrocity is often minimal, or even negative. In fact, a common and ancient propaganda technique (though also, not a wise one in the end) is to lie about the attrocities of the enemy, to promote fearlessness and determination in one's own people.

PvK

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It may sound 'cute' now, but if they start the process to amend the Constitution so foreign-born people can be President it'll be paranoia time.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Hmm....A Canadian president....I can see possibilities here.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

THAT COULD BE ME!! BE AFRAID, BE VERY VERY VERY AFRAID!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, but since I am neither American let alone californian and I would have voted for him anyway I am not particularly worried.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">'And so in closing, on this, the Last day of my term, I'm surrendering the United States of America to Canada...'

Nah. I would never do that. You can let me be president. Really.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

If I, a Tasmanian, became President I would round up all the native inhabitants (ie. Americans) and send them to live in Hawaii (which even then is too hospitable). Then move all the Tasmanians to America where we could use the reources and Land without having to worry about any indigenous people, just like here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The island would sink.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too bad all treaties have to be ratified by the Senate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too bad all treaties have to be ratified by the Senate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I would disolve the senate the day before.

Did I say that out load?

Oops.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

{quote]
Well, I would disolve the senate the day before.
[/quote]

Of course to do that you'd need to be granted "special emergency powers" in a carefully-engineered national crisis.

I can't decide whether to draw a parallel to Attack of the Clones, Babylon 5 or modern-day USA...

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hear ye http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Why should I love my country?

It is nothing but a place.

It's the place I am from.

This chair is where I am sitting, but I do not love it.

I am not free because of my country.

I am free because of the people who lived in my country before me.

They gave up their lives to gain their freedom.

Someone after them gave up their life to keep that freedom.

Now I give up my freedom to save my life.

Someday someone will give up their life to get that freedom back.

Because they are from my country.

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Beautifully put Geo. Did you write that yourself or were you quoting?

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

I wrote it. But it's not an original thought. I might have picked up parts from other places and don't remember.

[ June 03, 2004, 16:43: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huh?

To save your life from what? The authorities backing up the dim wits and slime bags who imposed the Patriot Act, which gave them the authority to cancel your freedom or make you disappear without due process?

PvK

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

I was born here.
I was raised here.
I was educated here.
I made friends here.
I got married here.
I had children here.
I spent all my life here.
and I will die here.

throughout my life, a second class citizen,
because of color, race, language, or religion.

I tell you God this is not right.
When will the world see the true light.
We are a single human race.
and prejudice is man's disgrace.

-unknown author

Re: OT: Free speech?
 

Why "love a country"? Because its like many other "love"s. You automatically love your parents, love your car, love your pets, love your country. Not because the love grew out of reason. But because loving it means its there until a reason is given to not love it anymore.

Most people on this planet are going to love their country unless they have read extensively or traveled. No one is going to be able to tell them not to.