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Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Renegade http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Right click 'my computer', hit properties, then the advanced tab then the performance button.

BTW, I used to work for M$ and IBM, and now do my own consulting business, database programming, hardware systems for large companies, etc etc

Trust me when I say, Ideally you want 2 gig's of total virtual ram - ie, if you have 512 meg ram, make your swap file 1.5 gig... Windows addresses up to 4 gig of ram, (32 bits), so some argue it should add to 4 gig... if you have the HD space, then go for it. (and yes, defrag before you do this - with swap disabled)

Also, on the VGA CARD issue... don't fall for the general directives of 'buy highest' or 'buy middle'... the companies rely on this, and you WILL get ripped off for the very top of the line, all the time.

Get at least an ATI 9500 PRO or better
Or get at least a GF 4200 ti or better
ati if you want direct x 9 pure support... but the TI series of GF 4's are nice... DO NOT buy MX variants of geforces http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

These cards are now fairly cheap, but use essentially the same architecture as the highest end cards... they just usually are clocked slower, and have slower memory. In many cases you can overclock to gain half the difference. My own 4200ti card easy runs at 4400 speeds

For those of you who insist on putting your own systems together, use GOOD quality stuff, ie, asus motherBoards, (msi and gigabyte are decent too), use 865 or 875 intel chipsets for the p4's and use nvidia chipsets for the amd's... (some other new sis and via amd chipsets are coming along nicely now as well, for a real low down, refer to tomshardware.com or anandtech.com)

Atrocities --- OMG, I feel so horrible after reading your experience... I wish I was around to help. Or you should have asked here...

Dell's with home warranties really are nice, the prices are reasonable but they do use decent components these days on their higher end stuff. You won't go wrong, you'll pay a bit more than homebuilt, but some say its worth it for the piece of mind.

If you connect to the internet, and use windows, ALWAYS update your computer from microsoft before you do anything else... too many hackers out there these days... if you're running XP, i'd suggest going to service pack 2 beta right away. If you run linux, then you don't need my advice really http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

The problem I am having with Farcry is that my card is over heating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It is not over cloaked so this should not be an issue but it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I need a water cooled case.

Any one here have any ideas on how to super cool a case cheaply?

Thanks cirvol, I wish you were around back then too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

I read that article Cirvol. The guy doesn't make a very compelling argument for building a box. At least not on an economic or performance basis. I am sure it was a good learning project for his kid and there's always something to be said for that. But the machine they ended up with wasn't any better then what they would have gotten in a pre-built for the same money. And he's not counting anything for an operating system.

So basically for the same money you can get the equvalent quality machine with a legit copy of an OS, already put together and ready to go. If you aren't just doing it for the fun of building it yourself, it doesn't really make sense.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

In alt.hacker we had a discussion about homemade cases. It was alot of fun. One was a "water cooled" case kindof. Remove the case on the computer. Take a big sheet of acrylic and bend it down over the computer, then across the table for 4-6 inches or so, then back up so you have a giant W with the computer in the middle. Its kindof hard to picture but after all the sealing and everything you get an aquarium than fits down over the top of the computer. Some air flow of course but mostly it was a heat exchange. The computer wants cooling and the aquarium wants heat. Plus seeing the computer running in the middle of the aquarium sounded cool.
(ouch I didnt mean that pun)

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

David Gervais and Cirvol.

Thanks very much, My pc has been quite cluttered recently and VERY slow. I tried what you suggested about Defragmenting and Virtual Memory and it has done wonders for it, and it hasn't crashed once yet. Thanks for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

So basically for the same money you can get the equvalent quality machine with a legit copy of an OS, already put together and ready to go. If you aren't just doing it for the fun of building it yourself, it doesn't really make sense.

In reality, this is not true. It might be for that Tom's Hardware article, but when you really go to build your own PC, you do save a lot of money and can get higher quality hardware (because you can choose what to get, rather than being stuck with the cheapest garbage the company selling you that prebuilt PC could find) when building the computer yourself (including the cost of the OS). The savings are not as large as they were a few years ago, but they still are large. Especially if you take advantage of rebates that appear for nearly every item from time to time, or go to computer fairs to get parts far cheaper than in stores such as Best Buy.

Of course, if you already own a copy of an OS and are building a new PC to replace the old one, you can use the OS CD you already have. There is no need to buy a second copy of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
David Gervais and Cirvol.

Thanks very much, My pc has been quite cluttered recently and VERY slow. I tried what you suggested about Defragmenting and Virtual Memory and it has done wonders for it, and it hasn't crashed once yet. Thanks for that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course.

[ June 03, 2004, 18:56: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

It's also been my experience for the Last few years at least that the cost savings in building you own is not that spectacular, and may not be there at all. Unless we are talking about building a machine as cheaply as possible, in which case you can scrounge around and find year or two old components or whatever. You can put a workable low-end machince together on the cheap pretty easy. Of course you can also buy a used year or two old pc at a flea market or on ebay for next to nothing. If you are trying to build a machine to play all the latest games then the savings just aren't there.

OS's shouldn't be sloufed off so easily either. Typically every time I've found myself looking to upgrade pc's the OS has been a lttle long in the tooth as well. Of course some people grow fond of the older OS's and don't want to upgrade, but hey, that's not me. And yeah, I know there are a lot of "creative" ways to come up with a copy of an OS. But that's why I qualified my statement with "legit". And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

I don't know... I have found the savings to be there in full force. Recently we purchased a PC for my sister. It cost around 500 dollars (plus moniter, which was about 80). A similar build of computer from, for example, Dell, was priced at around 900. And that was only with some of the parts of equivalent quality. Other stuff was worse in the Dell. This was obviously not a top of the line PC, but we could have gotten such for maybe 1/2 to 1/3 the price that Dell charged.

Quote:

And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

the thing with building your own PC is that each part has its own warranty, instead of the whole unit
Also, in my experiences, you can save a bit of money. Recently my motherboard died, after two years of faithful service (and it comes with a 3 year warranty by default)
I'm never going to buy OEM machines, unless for someone else or something really specialized that I couldn't make myself

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

LOL, you really shouldn't need a water cooled case... those are rather extreme.

Just add a fan which blows air over your video card's heatsink. Perhaps an extra casefan in case you have an unused fan 'port' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Btw people, tomshardware.com has a recent 'build your own' sub-$1000 gaming pc article http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its near the bottom of his front page... enjoy !

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is a good idea to defragment your hard drive once every 2 weeks or so. If you do it often, it doesn't take very long to do it each time. You do not need to disable the virtual memory swap file each time of course.

Ok, I may seem totally computer illiterate (I'm not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), but how do you disable the virtual memory swap file?? <hr /></blockquote>Cirvol answered this in a post below. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

*link to post*

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

What is your guys call on the 64 bit processors, go with or wait?

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And if you aren't trashing your old pc, and who does that when there are always family, friends, and home networks in need of backup computers, using the OS on the new pc isn't legit.

Only if you Subscribe to that unenforceable EULA gobleygook. It is not a legally binding contract in any way. I purchased the software, I can put it on as many of my computers as I want. Nothing "illegit" about it. Software is purchased by a user. Not by an individual computer. <hr /></blockquote>Actually, there are still copyright issues, even if EULA's are held unenforceable (as far as I know, they have never been challenged in court - until they have been, one cannot say for certain if the courts will hold EULA's as binding contracts or not) - if you purchase a book from the bookstore, you can read it at your house, you can let your neighbors read it at their house (or your house), but you can't read it at your house while you let your neighbors read it at their houses, as a book couldn't physically be in two places at once. As I recall (although I don't remember the source, so this may be false) the ruling on such readily copiable things as software, was that anything you would be capable of and permitted to do with a book, you are permitted to do with software - which means (assuming EULA's are held unenforceable in court, that is) you can install a single purchased OS on two machines, provided they aren't ever used simultaneously, as one physical book couldn't be in two places at once. Thus, you can't purchase one copy of Windows XP, install it on your custom machine (1), give your custom machine (1) away to your sister without doing anything to it, build another (2) and install your copy of Windows XP on it - the first machine is no longer under your control, so you can't be sure they won't be used simultaneously.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Well, there is QUITE a difference between the standard athlon 64 vs the FX model... (price reflects this as well - and as a result, the standard athlon 64 is a better buy for optimizing price/performance)

But, FX is sweet.

The nvidia nforce3-250 chipset seems like the sweetest one so far, again, do a bit of research at tomshardware.com. If you do any type of scientific research, (SETI@home, folding@home (my favorite)) then the athlon FX's are really really nice.

One caveat, they are about to switch to a new pin (and socket) layout, called the 939 - it might make sense to wait for these mobo's and cpu's before you purchase, (and for that matter, if you're upgrading your vga card, wait for PCI express - which will replace the AGP slot)

cheers,
Cirvol

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Atrocities:
The problem I am having with Farcry is that my card is over heating. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It is not over cloaked so this should not be an issue but it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I need a water cooled case.

Any one here have any ideas on how to super cool a case cheaply?

Thanks cirvol, I wish you were around back then too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, it is a common mod to do, what you have to do is find the right water cooling block that attaches to your particular parts (CPU and video card). After that all you need is to remove the regular heatsinks from both (might be tricky on the vcard) and attach them, with a tiny bit of silver heat gel (it really is optional, but a little won't hurt). Attaching the tubing is next, and all you need now is a pump and a resevoir, and a radiator. You can find premade kits at any PC mod site, or you can make your own if you're good with tools.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

guys, water cooling is OVERKILL, i swear

just take the heat sink off, make sure both surfaces are really smooth and flat, and use artec silver paste between them, and you'll be amazed at how well it works...

water cooling the card is just asking for trouble, honest

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Personally i'm of the belief that water + PC's = Trouble

A water cooled case just sounds practically insane considering what your computer is made of, and running on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Raging Deadstar:
Personally i'm of the belief that water + PC's = Trouble

A water cooled case just sounds practically insane considering what your computer is made of, and running on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Well, water cooling is only a step up from air. Next you have evaporative water cooling with a cooling tower. Then if you�re a real hard core OC�r, you can go with electronic chilling (pelts) and water. And for insane OC�ing, you can go with compressed gas (Vapochill).

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

The only reason for water cooling is the reduced noise. Air is perfectly ok and absolutely sufficient if there are enough and good fans, but more fans always = more noise, even if you buy expensive "silent" ones.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Well, any liquid is really a waste compared to using a peltier cooler...

peltier is pretty cheap, no worries of condensation and liquids spilling on your uber mobo+cpu, and a pretty cool tech-doodad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Back on the cost savings subject...
Building your own is not a big cost saver.
BUT... it gives you control over your system, esp the software.

Buld your own and you can have the OS CD, and a CD for each application.
So the OS can go on a smaller C: partition and be easily reinstalled without affecting application on D:.

Buy a built one, and you may have to pay extra for the OS CD.
Your application and OS may be tied up in a bundled CD set.
Forget about selective reinstalls, you may have to wipe the whole HD and start over.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics.

PPG is the poor mans pick for coolant, but water mixed with a good wetting agent is about as good as it gets. They usually add some color to help find the leaks and make it look cool too. <hr /></blockquote>What's PPG? Is it conducting fluid or not?

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirvol:
Well, any liquid is really a waste compared to using a peltier cooler...

peltier is pretty cheap, no worries of condensation and liquids spilling on your uber mobo+cpu, and a pretty cool tech-doodad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pelts can be a pain in the butt. Condensate from frost is an issue and they suck up a lot of amps.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Quote:

Originally posted by aiken:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thermodyne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aiken:
Interesting, is it possible to replace water with another cooling agent, spirit or glycerin for example?
Of course they're not so effective (lower specific heat characteristics) but not so dangerous for electronics.

Re: OT: Worst PC Decision

Ouch, rough story.
Revenge my friend is best served cold. You aren't the only person he sodomized, his list of clients would be numerous.
Likely would have beaten him down in his store and inserted an AGP card in his his incompatible A drive.
I'd rather spend 1500 on bail then waist it on some shyster lawyer.

There are more of these clowns out there then people realize. Just because someone has an A+ Certification, doesn't mean jack. Hell, I have one and I don't even work in the computer field.
Building your own computer doesn't mean it will cost less than a prebuilt machine. What it does mean is you'll have the ability to pick and choose brand name quality parts. That deal you see in the paper for a MB, fan, CPU, and Heatsink for 80 bucks isn't worth two dead flies.
Or how about some House brand generic RAM for your system?
Maybe one of them sweet 70 watt power supplies Gateway is known for will work in your game machine?
People slap this cheap crap together, then blame problems on the few name brand big items they focused on, such as their Nvida or ATI video card. Or how AMD/Pentium sucks because it conflicted with XYZ chipset.
Dells and Gateways are good for the payment plans and that's about it. A quality computer builder should be available within a day of down time. Quality parts have their own warantees as well. Case in point, I have two Western Digital 10,000 rpm hard drives in a RAID 0, they have 5 year factory warantees on each of them. So until 2008, I'm golden with them.
Hell, they even sell quality case and heatsink fans now with lifetime warantees.
If you're running into thermal issues, make sure you have a working fan that isn't caked with dirt. Same goes for the heatsink. Check to see that thermal grease has been applied between the processor and the heatsink. Make sure it was applied properly -- less is more.
Make sure you have a quality power supply able to handle the load of your system. Most burner issues are due to this alone. I recommend nothing less than 350 watts.
As of late for friends and family, I've been building systems on Windows XP Pro. This is typically the break down:
Pentium IV 2.4/2.8/3.0ghz Prescott core, 800mhz FSB

ABit MotherBoards IC7 series, highend gets IC7-MAX3, I prefer to use the IC7-MAX3 due to the decent onboard 5.1 Sound card, and a good gigbit lan card, duel RAID controlers along with the standard IDE headers. Lots of clearance even for the big Swiftech heatsinks.

512/1024mb RAM PC4000 (500mhz) 2.5 CAS GeIL/Corsair/Crucial/OCZ

Swifttech makes a great heatsink, Alpha's are okay as well. Swiftech's will accept larger fans. I put 92x92x25's on them.

Processor fans, go with Vantec. If you don't care about the noise, use the Tornado series, they are extremely loud though. Sounds like someone using a hair dryer in the other room, seriously. They move 84cfm though. Go with the stealth for a fan you can bearly hear. They push around 28cfm. More than enough with a good heatsink like the Swifttech. You need to strain to hear the computer turn on with the Stealth fan and a quiet PSU.

CRT monitors, usually 19 or 21 inch. Unless flatscreen is requested for looks. I like Viewsonic monitors.

For the hard drives, I like the Western Digital Raptor drives. 10,000 rpm, 8mb Cache. Only 37gb's though. They make a good C: drive. Additional hard drives with larger amounts of space can be used for non esential items or storage. My preference is to go with a RAID setup for extreme speed using the Raptors. IC7-MAX3 board comes equiped with the RAID support.

Name brand Power Supply Units (PSU's) are the way to go. No less than 350 watts. ENERMAX are good. They're shielded well, and don't have much power flux levels. They have a quiet line which are nice. If you have a few hard drives and/or a few CDROM/DVDROM's, you should go with the 425watt.

Video cards can be a touchy subject. Depending on what you are doing with the computer is typically what leads you to your choice. Nvidia and ATI are both good cards. Stay away from the budget line models. Even if you get a card that is a generation old, it is better to get the old high end unit. Don't spend over 300 - 350 on a card unless you've got money to burn. I run duel monitors on the Radeon ATI 9800 Pro 128mb ram. It hasn't met a game it couldn't whip with both screens at high resolution. Currently, going over 128mb or video ram is pointless. Very few games take advantage of this. Textures need to be more complicated (bigger) for this to help. Paying for this feature now is fruitless. The difference between 64 and 128 is nominal at best as well. Recently, its value is being slowly realized though.
Stay away from water and pelter cooling unless you know what you're doing. They aren't ment to be systems that run 24/7. Leaks can and will happen, just like the plumbing in your home.
A lot of times, adding blow holes and things of the sort do very little to the cooling of your system. Sometimes they actually hamper it. Instead of one smooth path for cool air to enter, and hot to exit, you create a turbulant area within the case which restricts airflow. Air must stay in one spot long enough to transfer heat to itself, before exiting the case. Think of how your thermostat works in your car.

To wrap it up, if you don't personally know someone who can build a quality system (not cheap) or can't build it yourself; go with a prebuilt name brand unit from a big seller like Gateway or Dell. Stay away from strip mall computer shops for builds, you're almost guaranteed to get some refurbished parts in the unit.
If anyone has any computer related questions, feel free to e-mail me or contact me on ICQ.
-Steve