Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Thanks - those two do look like typos. What I get for rushing.

I don't have ICQ where I am at the moment.

I will be changing the homeworld CC to something in the neighborhood of what you suggested. My Last guess was HW CC would provide 1000 research and a 10x research multiplier. By my math, trying to take what SE4 actually does into account (assuming happy and later jubilent happiness, and use of a system computer complex eventually), this gives about 21000 research to start with, and has the potential to grow to about 106640 if you filled your whole homeworld with Research Megaplex III's. With only half-filled, research would be about 61070. I may tweak that a bit, though.

As for the other values you listed, they are pretty close to what currently exists.

The spaceport cities costs and abilities are more or less the same as their corresponsing city... plus a spaceport and resupply depot. I give them a minor side-effect boost on research, but I don't see why their research bonus should any better than the same size city, plus a point or two.

I'm also not sure why a city would provide an intel multiplier. It seems to me like a civilian community presents intel challenges as much or as or more than it would help. Did you have a rationale in mind for that?

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, I think I've found good values for the homeworld research:

Cultural Center research multiplier x 10
Cultural Center research generation 1000 (x 10)

This gives a starting research base of 21000.

If half the remaining (medium) homeworld slots are devoted to research Megacomplex III's, this gives a research generation of about 61000. If you fill the HW with research megaplex III's, the generation base reaches about 107,000, but of course at a huge cost in resources and lost income.

This potential is offset by reduced trade value compared to 2.5 (20% -> 10%), the resource sacrifice, the increased research costs in 3.0, and now, tweaked research and construction costs for the megaplexes.

My impression is this is about right. Let me know if this seems off to anyone.

I'm not so certain what to do about the mineral generation. My inclination is to leave it at 30x, or maybe drop it to 20-25x. At 30x, you start at about 45-50K mins, and can increase that eventually to about 200K without concentrating homeworld slots, or go up to about 500K if you dump everything else and fill up on Min Mine Megaplex III's.

Seems ok to me. But again, if this seems off, speak now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I am thinking though that these multipliers will mean we don't need to double the resource values of planets, as we'd discussed earlier in this thread.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Not sure if this is it, but a system percent modifier ability stacks with a planet percent modifier ability. If you build a stock game robotoid factory III and system robotoid factory III, you do not get an overall 60% bonus, but instead a 69% bonus.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, in my mind, the multiplier and increased stats of the colonial facilities represent the many offices and labs helped by the well devleoped infrastructure.

It would seem odd that a homeworld would have lots of research labs, but not a single intelligence agency office anywhere, thats why it seems reasonable to have intel bonus as well.

Not to mention game balance, as those who focus on intel could also benefit from these buildings then, not only those who focus on research.

About that list of modifiers, and generally the colonial facilities:
I think there should be a bigger difference between spaceport Versions and normal ones, plus i have my concerns about the high end colonial facilities.

See, i know its about proportions, but is there actually anyone, who ever built a colony cultural center?

Even arcologies cost at least about 8 years (77 turns), considering you have a 4500 organics and radioactive build rate, which at this moment you'll only get on a full medium planet, with jubilant morale and the highest level temporal spaceyard.

The next highest building, a colony world cultural center would take 533 turns at the same build rate.

Well, i may be wrong, but i dont see the point of having it so high.

Its unlikely likely that i'll ever have just 100 turns to spare, not to mention 533.

I really think, the construction costs should be reworked so that the most expensive building you want players to build can fit into say 100-150 turns considering the highest tech level construction equipment and the best moral/population bonuses (on normal planets).

Other building costs could then be modified to match that.

Well, thats what i think at least.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hey PvK,

I like the starting base numbers, but I feel that the higher end numbers you mentioned may be a bit high. Under 2.5 using a computer complex III, robotoid factory III, and system facilities III, the HW would cap out at about 95-100k mineral production and 45k research. These numbers werer large enough to make the homeworld the singlemost vuluable planet in any empire. By increasig these numbers to the potential described above, HW's would now eclipse any colony world, and would be quite capable of standing on their own.

I'm kind of grogy right now - can't think of a good arguement. However, I like proportions for its "epic" feel - slow construction, looooong research times, etc. A homeworld as powerful as you describe just seems a bit off to me.

Thanks,
-Hippo

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Do not forget, that the colony worlds now also get a nice research / mining boost from cities / metropolises and the like.

So one arcology on a planet gives a 200% research rate bonus, effectively resulting in 3x the normal research that planet would give.

Well, taking a closer look at it, you will probably not have that many arcologies, because of the time it takes to build them, but the potential is there.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Actually, I am pretty sure PvK removed those from being feasible in an earlier Version, but left them in to maintain savegame compatibility. They are not meant to be built normally any longer, so they have the same build cost as the normal cultural centers.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

So I suppose the CWCC's can be safely taken out now, as the 2.X savegames won't be compatible with the new 3.X savegames? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hey csebal,

That's partly the point - I liked the slower pace http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I always felt that the stock game allowed or the generation of too many minerals and reserach points too quickly. I'm just pointing out that I hope the new values don't "speed things up" a manner drasticaly faster than 2.5 (I found the pacing there exquisite).

-Hippo

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, i like the slower pace as well, but i dont see a point in having anything in the game that costs 200+ turns to build, even with the highest tech available.

I just mentioned, that there is a reasonable timeframe for constructing buildings, and they should all fit into that timeframe using the tech level players will most probably have by the time they are supposed to use the building.

See, if a metropolis takes 50 turns to build with top level construction facilities, then and i dont think many will build it, not to mention, that by the time you'll have that top level construction stuff, you could/should care about arcologies instead.

So lets make it clear, i dont want to make things build in a turn or a year, but i dont see a point in having my facility list cluttered with stuff, that takes so long, se5 comes out by the time it gets even near completion.

Thats my point.
Then again, there are two other aspects:
- First, i realize that im just one of the many Users of this mod, so my opinion weights little on the global scale.
- Then there is the 2nd Proportions game on PBW, which i would really like to begin ASAP, so it may not be the time to make ground breaking changes to the mod.

Lets just say, i keep throwing up ideas and comments like this hoping, that they help to make the mod better. Arguing about it can make the mod better as well, as it gives PvK more opinions to base his choices on.

Thats it on my side.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I kinda like the idea of CWCCs, they are the Last step of making a new planet truly part of my culture for me.

As for myself, i always modded my own proportions, to make CWCC the Last colonial step after arcology, with a cost of 650k resources, and somewhat reduced stats to be in-line with the cost/stats of other facilities.

I think CWCCs could stay in 3.0 as well, but they should have lower cost and lower stats. They could be given the same tech reqs as arcologies, with higher construction and industry levels

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Thanks very much to all of you for your enthusiastic comments and questions and suggestions on the mod! It's very nice, and I do appreciate both cheers and frowns. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

It seems to be about time for me to re-state some of the reasons for the values of the large cultural facilities.

In 3.0 there are two kinds of Cultural Center, homeworld and colony. In 2.5 there were as well, but they were identical except in name. In 3.0, the colony Version costs a lot less (2.4 million x 3 types) while the homeworld Version costs 4 million x 3 types, and has even better values.

As in earlier Versions, these costs are so high because you are NOT supposed to consider building them, unless you are trying an extreme stategy or an extremely long-term (and peaceful) game. In fact, the main reason they used to cost so LITTLE, was because when you started with a bunch of them, you might consider SCRAPPING one for the resources (which more than one player has done when they failed to manage their budget properly).

With one available at 2.4 (x3) million, however, it is possible to consider actually building one as a long-term strategy or goal, which is kind of an amusing tease, so I have left that in.

To explain further, Proportions is kind of a counterpoint to the things that don't make sense in the default game mechanics. One main thing that does not make sense is the way that research facilities add directly to one giant empire research pool. That only makes sense for something like a big basic computer problem that is already understood and can be divided amongst computers. Real estate space is not the obstacle to research rate, but the stock game makes it so. So the point of a cultural center is that it should be unique to the homeworld and NOT reproducable... or at least, not without extreme difficulty. Creating a new CC does not represent simply building up a new planetary infrastructure, but also developing new technologies that work well on a completely alien planet (with different gravity, pressure, atmosphere, flora and fauna, weather, temperature, seasons, etc), and perhaps even more importantly, developing a new _civilization_ which is different enough from your original civilization, to see things from a different perspective, so that it can in fact make a huge increase to your empire's abilities, beyond just adding some more factories and labs.

So that's basically why Cultural Centers are nearly unbuildable, on purpose.

Arcologies are massive undertakings themselves, vast pinacles of futuristic community construction, so it makes sense that they take at least 10 years or so to build on a good planet without miraculous technology and/or many millions of people or droids hard at work. On a good planet, they will eventually be worth it, too, especially thanks to the multipliers, but again it is a big investment of time and research. Perhaps unwise to do during war time... unless it will be a 20-year war or a low-intensity one. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither will an arcology be.

Again, these things are included as the far end of the spectrum of short- to long-term non-military investments. They are not supposed to be done routinely, and they are not supposed to necessarily be a good idea, especially in a crisis. An MP game of Proportions should probably generally represent something of a time of crisis. Starting on a new map without running any turns for history, it represents the initial wave of expansion and colonization by several empires at the same time. The priority is probably to claim as much territory as possible, and perhaps to conquer an alien homeworld or establish an alliance to guarantee that the future will turn out well. Building new civilizations or wonders of architecture may not be the wisest investment during such a time. That's not a reason to not include them as a possible choice, however.

The intermediate cultural facilities offer a spectrum of investment levels to choose between, and I think now with the multipliers, there are now much better (and in fact, good) reasons to consider some which were of more dubious value in 2.5. For particular examples, the Settlements and Communities used to be kind of cheap but not very helpful in 2.5, but in 3.0 their multipliers offer a good reason to use them on production or research colonies that in 2.5 might not have wanted any cultural facility, and they also offer Organic multipliers which the _urban_ cultural facilities do not. The increased scarcity and needs for Organics in 3.0 also make Agrarian facilities much more desirable than in 2.5.

Similarly, some of the higher technology items may also turn out to be very inefficient investments in most cases. Again, this is intentional. Not every new invention makes older designs obsolete, or is the best thing to use. Some inventions may offer unique abilities, but be impractically expensive or large or whatever. But the option remains, and in some cases, items which seem pointless may find situations where they can be put to good use, or provide a solution that would otherwise be impossible. Players should find many more occasions to think about what levels of technology to develop and to deploy, instead of simply in what order to max out which technology, as is often the case in the unmodded game.

I hope that helps explain and makes good clear sense.

(Also, I hope people are planning to continue playing after SEV comes out.)

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hey csebal,

You misunderstood - I agree with you on most of what you said. Rather, my comments were directed towards your earlier observation that Arcologies would offer 200% research bonuses, allowing for 3x normal research on a colony. I was simply commenting on how I liked the current proportions numbers for research and mineral production.

-Hippo

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I see. Yes, the homeworld and cities represent not only offices and infrastructure, but the many complex advantages of a livable environment, civilization, etc. Good luck getting your best scientists to be happy about shipping out and working on Outer Pudab VIII, in an office inside a pressure dome where the days are 20 years long, and the nearest civilization is months away by spaceship. Also, their ability to colaborate with their peers throughout the empire (without being intercepted) will be reduced.

The Cultural Centers do include intelligence agencies of some sort, represented by their intrinsic generation. Also it occurs to me that the larger a civilian presence on a colony, the easier it will be for agents to hide and observe things and plot and so on. So I see such facilities as a disadvantage to intel operations, as well as an advantage. That didn't used to seem representable in SE4, but maybe there is a way in 1.91. Hmm. Anyway I will take a look and see.
Yes, though I find it interesting that Intel facilities are currently something that work about like they used to in the old game - if you put a lot of them on colonies, you can get strong intel forces, but especially in the preview 3.0, it makes sense to put them on the lesser-developed planets - covert bases and all that.
I don't see why. Spaceport Versions represent planning and co-location, not more developed urban facilities. The big advantage is they save you two slots on the planet, which can then be used for other things which can be helped by the urban facility's modifiers, etc. It requires longer to build them, though, and so there are planning and efficiency considerations, depending on what you build on the planet and in what order. But since you can have either one Spaceport City facility, or a Spaceport facility and a Resupply facility and a City facility, for essentially the same time and cost, and they represent the same things, only arranged differently, I don't see how it would make sense to give the Spaceport Cities much advantage in performance over a city. I just gave them a +1 or so to add a little detail/interest, to represent the slight effect of convenient colocation, desirability, attention, whatever.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Hippocrates said: I like the 2.5 pacing too. I think the net effect will be similar. Remember it takes a LONG time to build an arcology. The new values do allow a lot more production and research on both colonies on the homeworld, however there are also several things that slow this down:

* Maximum trade income is halved. This used to often be a major part of an empire's income and research, and still will be, but it's about half as strong now.

* Most research costs are up about 50% or in some cases much more, and extend to higher levels, and/or were split into multiple tech areas.

* Many of the larger facilities and components now cost more, and especially more rads and orgs, and org and rad production on the homeworld is rather less than it was in 2.5, so they will become more valuable earlier on.

* With the halved org and rad construction rates, most of the cultural facilities can take about twice as long to build.

So some things have been multiplied up, while others have been divided down. Net result will be faster in some ways, slower in others, and with I think more range for different approaches.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Before reading trough the new Posts, here is it..

i was playing with the preview, then i just figured it out:

- research center II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 2 => 1
Computers 0 => 2
- research center III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 3 => 1
Computers 0 => 4

- research complex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 0 => 1
- research complex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 1 => 3
- research complex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 2 => 5

- research megaplex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
- research megaplex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 3
Computers 2 => 4
- research megaplex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 4
Computers 2 => 6

This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.

Well, its kinda late here, so in case im not clear enough, just tell, and i'll try to explain it this morning.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

[quote:PvK]
I don't see why. Spaceport Versions represent planning and co-location, not more developed urban facilities. The big advantage is they save you two slots on the planet, which can then be used for other things which can be helped by the urban facility's modifiers, etc. It requires longer to build them, though, and so there are planning and efficiency considerations, depending on what you build on the planet and in what order. But since you can have either one Spaceport City facility, or a Spaceport facility and a Resupply facility and a City facility, for essentially the same time and cost, and they represent the same things, only arranged differently, I don't see how it would make sense to give the Spaceport Cities much advantage in performance over a city. I just gave them a +1 or so to add a little detail/interest, to represent the slight effect of convenient colocation, desirability, attention, whatever.

PvK

[/quote]

Well, just take a look at the basic history and how ports affected economy, wars, trade, science, development, basically everything. A colony with a spaceport has the opportunity to become a major interstellar hub for traffic going trough the region.

Other than that, the offered services as well. In my modified Version (i alway modify everything i get my hands on, thats where all the stupid ideas come from http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif), minor spaceports only give spaceports, while everything above spaceport city (excluding city and major city) gives a resupply depo as well (they also have an increasing repair capacity). This is supposed to simulate the ability to deal with the supply / maintenance of passing ships.

of course, their price is significantly higher than the price of the normal facility.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Spaceport access is by planet (actually by system), not by facility. Without a spaceport, zero resources, research or intel points reach the empire.

You seem to be imagining Spaceport City as a very different thing than I am.

To me, a City on a colony with a Spaceport in the system has very nearly as good spaceport access as a Spaceport City. It's just a matter of useful/optimal space/infrastructure utilization. The Spaceport City is a City with a Spaceport integrated into it from the planning stage. The effect is on the number of slots used, which is really a major effect, without altering the generation or multipliers of the city at all.

In developing a colony on an alien planet, it seems to me there would be local details, both indigenous and evolutionary as the planet goes through stages of development, where it would be more or less efficient to build population and spaceports and infrastructure. The choice between building a Spaceport City first, or building spaceport and then a city, or other combinations at different times, abstractly represent those.

However you imagine it, though, it is pretty clear that having two extra facility slots on a planet is a major advantage, especially once a multiplier is in place. On the other hand, having a space port available immediately is also a big advantage.

Perhaps what you meant is that having a spaceport on a planet, as opposed to using a spaceport from some other planet, should have an advantage for that planet? In that case, that's something I hadn't really considered, and I do think that is a good point and would be something to work into the economics. It would add an (annoying ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif) decision about whether or not you should add space ports to every planet or not. I still wouldn't make it something special for Space Port Cities, but for all spaceports - add some planetary modifiers and/or production from all spaceports. Hmm.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

The logic of the current system is that the complexes and megacomplexes are not _better_ Versions of the standard facilities. Instead, they are massive industrial Versions of the standard facilties. That's why the costs are as they are, and why the tech requirement is mainly Industry, rather than Research. Quality versus quantity. Sophistication versus brute force. The levels required are now a bit different (more difficult), but I think I will keep the concept. If I wanted linear increase I would just have Facility I-IX require Research 1-9 or Mining 1-9.

I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

My point is, that because spaceport Versions of colonial facilities only cost a little more than tha spaceportless one, it makes no sense to build those.

In my mind, the spaceported Version is a stepping stone towards the next bigger facility, and as such it should have a significantly increased price, and somewhat better stats (well, you are right in that the two extra facilities may be an advantage enough).

Anyway, what im arguing about is, that they should be placed further apart in price, making it actually a hard choice of what to build.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, you do not really need to delay your research even for upgrades. You would have to build a facility belonging to the same family (Research Center I for example), do the research for the upgrade of Research Complex I, launch the upgrade on one planet, save the upgrade in the queue, and go on with your research in Industry. If you only want Research Complexes rather than Megacomplexes, you will then fill the queue with this Research Complex upgrade. At least, I would believe it would work.

I would rather not be able to directly upgrade to Megacomplexes myself. Besides this, I do prefer the current principle behind homeworld facilities and cities over the previous one, but didn't have the time to delve into how they work yet.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Again, very good to know! Thanks!

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

You can even use this to add the upgrade order to the new queue before the facilities are even built (assuming you already have a Fill Queue). Additionally, you can use this method to upgrade only X facilities at a time, and leave all others unupgraded. Very handy to get some upgraded before the others when you have say 10 facilities to upgrade, to start getting extra points sooner... No need to upgrade all 12 cities at once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

spotted another one

religious buildings, while some of them give the same bonuses as value improvement and condition improvement plants, have extremely cheap tech / resource costs.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I'll double-check the religious facilities (and I think I already tweaked them a little recently), but in general yes they may be much cheaper in terms of resources than equivalent mundane facilities. The main requirement for an effective temple, it seems to me, is devotion, rather than high-tech materials. This is represented and balanced via empire start points (paying for the Devoutly Religious trait), rather than by resource costs. Note that the main power of the Religious trait in the unmodded game, the talisman, is much reduced in effect, cheapness, and ease of access, compared to the unmodded game. So I think having temples cheaper in resource cost than mundane facilities is ok in general.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Egad - you people are tricky! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Unfortunately, these loopholes somewhat undermine certain aspects of the design aimed at less tricky players. I'm glad there is _a_ way to upgrade one facility at a time, but it is an unfortunately complex way to have to do it.
I guess once you know how to use the Fill Queue feature, and if you manage to set them up at the right time, then you have an easy enough way to do it. Geez.

Ok. I guess I should ask though: Is there a way to fake out the system so you don't even have to build the facility you are upgrading from? I know the AI (used to?) be able to upgrade facilities while they were being built. Can a sneaky player do that too, essentially halving the cost of practically any facility that can be upgraded to?

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, i havent seen the final stats, and i certainly agree, that they should be cheaper, but in my Version (preview)

the nature shrine stats look like this:
+ Nature Shrine I
2k/6k/2k resources / 1% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement plant I (100k each) + Climate Control Facility I (8k each)

--- so 108k resources vs 6k resources for the same 1% (in build time, this is say 5 turns vs 80

+ Nature Shrine II
4k/12k/4k resources / 2% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement plant II (200k each) + Climate Control Facility II (10k each)

--- 210k vs 12k resources

Nature Shrine III
10k/30k/10k resources / 3% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement Plant III (400k each) + Climate Control Facility III (12k)

--- wow, 412k vs 30k

I think you got my point, if thats not enough, we can add, that nature shrine is system wide, so you only need one for the entire system, instead of two normal facilities every planet. Well, this also means, you can only have one affecting the system at a time, but considering the build costs of the normal facilities, its unlikely, one will ever build one, not to mention multiple ones.

Should religious facilities be cheaper? definitely, are they cheaper now? Nope - they are practically free.

Would they cost half of the price of the regular one, we could argue about it being fair or not, personally i think, that the system wide ability, and that its basically a 2-in-1 structure justifies an even higher price than the normal facilities have.

Lets not forget, that is rather easy to reach research wise (at least it was Last time i checked), and that the 1500 points the trait costs you is not paid for 'free value improvement on every of your planets', but for 'access to otherwise restricted technology'.


Sorry if my post sounded a bit like ranting, but i had a hard day behind me, and had to release the steam valves somewhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif if you feel insulted by my post / tone / whatever, please acceppt my apologies, its not meant to flame or insult anyone.

-- EDIT:
Reading trough the post a second time, it is half as worse as i expected. Lets just say, my built-in cooling system works like nothing else. It also had a terrible grammar and some weird typos, which im too lazy to locate and correct

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

No problem csebal.

We may have some different premises about balance. When a technology requires a unique trait, OR when a competing technology has a superior/different ability (here, is stackable), OR when a competing technology offers the best end result but at a much higher cost, then I see these as qualitative factors that can obviate the need for quantitative balance.

Additionally, when an ability seems to accomplish a task that might reasonably be imagined as nearly impossible (like increasing the value of a planet, changing its atmosphere type, or creating a ring or sphereworld, or creating a new Cultural Center i.e. civilization that can nearly double the research rate of an entire empire) then I think a designer might assign costs which in fact make the accomplishment impractical or nearly impossible. They can then serve as goals or rarely-broken boundaries.

I.e.:

* 1500 racial points is enough to give Devoutly Relgious players an advantage like cheap temples with effects that aren't matched in the other tech areas, and without being cost-balanced with them.

* The fact that Nature Shrine gives a maximum 3% bonus, while Value Plants stack up to potentially much higher rates, again means that Value Plants might want to be priced much higher, when the stacking technique is considered.

These points just say to me that a designer could feel free to set the costs quite high without creating direct imbalance. Whether they would want to or not, though, is a different question.

In Proportions 2.5, the Nature Shrine was the same, but the Value Improvement Plant cost 10k/10k/10k at all three levels.

So then, Nature Shrine at:
I - 2k/ 6k/ 2k
II - 4k/12k/ 4k
III - 10k/30k/10k

Was much more clearly comparable.

A level-III Nature Shrine will take about 4 years to build even on a fairly developed colony (~750 organic build rate), so I don't think I agree with these being considered FREE.

Players requested that Value Improvement Plant should not be so cheap, and in the 3.0 preview it was raised by TEN TIMES to:

I - 100k/100k/100k
II - 200k/200k/200k
III - 400k/400k/400k

(Of course, if you have the space, and time, you can theoretically still build multiple I's and II's, so the III is space-efficient but cost/time-inefficient.)

Now, 10k/10k/10k was probably too cheap for VIP III, because you could put several on one planet and they stack. The new VIP costs are rather high, but they shouldn't be too cheap or people will build several.

In Props 2.5, a good colony might build a VIP every 6 turns, so a 20-year plan might be:

Year 1-2, colonize a good-value large breathable planet and ferry population to it and build a planetary space yard there.

Year 3-8, build ten VIP III's there. During this, the value would go up about 6 x 3 x 10 / 2 = 90%.

Year 9-15, build other facilities while leaving the ten VIPs there, adding another approximately 7 x 3 x 10 = 210%.

Year 16-20, scrap the VIP's and replace with 10 resource extractors, cashing in on the value of the ~+300% planet.

That's a long-term project, and expensive at first, but it could pay off well, and seems a bit odd.

In 3.0, it might be worse, in that the homeworld now has many available slots. Using them for VIP's will of course cause a major sacrifice in immediate research and resources, but a few VIP's could also pay off pretty well in the long run.

NEVERTHELESS, I think my x10 costs for VIP's are perhaps too high, and yes the Nature Shrine costs could stand to be somewhat higher.

This is the result of my rushing to get 3.0 ready for these PBW games. Of course, if I weren't rushing, I might never get anything released.

At any rate, I think the VIP (or, a high VIP rate) should be restricted mainly by time. A 1% rate I am not so worried about. A 2% rate is a strong effect in the long term, especially on a homeworld or other valuable planet. A 3% should I think be something so good that it should be so difficult that the cost should be something that makes players stop to think. Especially if they are getting it all in one facility. That's why I doubled the cost of a VIP III vs. a VIP II. I'm going to say it should take approximately 10 years for a good colony to build a VIP I, and thus 20 years for two VIP I's, and I think a VIP II can simply be twice the cost of a VIP I (the advantage of a II being the space used; the advantage of two I's being you get the first 1% effect sooner, and don't have to research level II). A good colony I define as about 750 org build rate, which is about what you get with 20m people. So 100 turns x 750 orgs/turn = 75000 orgs. So I overcharged maybe 33% - I hit the right order of magnitude. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

What about homeworlds? A good one might have twice as high an org build rate. So a VIP I per 5 years, a VIP II in 10 years, or a VIP III in 20 years, with 75% of the preview costs. Again, that seems like a reasonable rate for what you get (a very major cost, but a very major payoff... eventually). Ideally, I'd like to offer smaller effects, for smaller costs, but 1% is the minimum possible value.

Finally, back to Nature Shrines. The time and costs at colony worlds seem ok to me at first. But when the system-wide 3% effect is considered, and especially it's use on the homeworld, it deserves more thought. A Proportions game can easily go 100-300 turns. At 100 turns after construction, a religious home system will be up about 30%. At 200 turns after construction, 60% and at 300 turns, 90% (anyone know if it just adds 3% each year, or if it is a compound interest and how fractions are considered?). Construction time though would currently be 40 turns (plus maybe 10-15 to set up and stock a colony) on a home system colony, or 20 turns on the homeworld itself (which isn't the best choice, since then it uses a HW slot when the same effect can be had on a colony). So add 50 turns to the values shown above. From a balance standpoint, it's a strong effect but not, I think, an unreasonable one. The research investment and time to reach Religious Tech III (557,500 research points). I would add an average of say 50 turns to get that far (assuming no research rush or undue concentration).

30% increase by turn 200, 60% by turn 300, 90% by turn 400.

So it really depends on how long the game Lasts. You get a good payoff by turn 200, and then it continues getting better and better. Like in the unmodded game, this may start looking scary to non-religious players, and might make you a target. Also, your bountiful systems may look more and more tempting to capture.

So from a balance perspective I think it is ok, but could stand to be reduced. From a "realism" and "proportions" standpoint, though, that's nearly doubling the resource output of the home system in a mere 40 years. One might point out that it's religion and science fiction and therefore can do what it wants. On the other hand, that does seem pretty fast from my realism/proportions standpoint. The problem, again, is that the game doesn't let me slow it down much. Best I can do is cut the rate down to 2% or 1%, and then that leaves less room for improvement at higher investment levels.

One approach would be to drop the Nature Shrine effects to 2% or 1%, and then give them decreasing costs. This is a big nerf to the effect, so one needs to look at what they have left. Talisman is a unique combat plus, but is pretty expensive. The War Shrine III gives the equivalent of a 1225-empire-point bonus if your religious race has an aggressiveness bonus... but only in systems where you have that shrine.

All in all, I think I should probably make those changes (75% the 3.0 cost of VIP's, and Nature Shrine nerf), but the religious trait ends up seeming somewhat weak... or... only worth about what it costs, especially before the higher levels are researched. Maybe I will do that, but plan to give the Religious something new later on.

Any religious players peeved about this idea? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

The Nature Shrine should add up every year, until the limit is reached (250% for planets, unless the shrine allows them to get all the way to 300%). That is, if you are playing with unlimited resources. On the other hand, the Condition increase is a multiplier, so 3% is very weak for planets with poor conditions. The values for the conditions range from 0.1 (Deadly) to 1.5 (Optimal), and so low values take a lot of time before you can recover from them.

You may also want to decrease the costs of the VI II and III facilities to avoid the "sneaky" way of building the first level facility and upgrading for a lower cost, as some players may go with this kind of trick (or loophole, as you will).

I am certainly not against weakening the Nature Shrine, or stretching its levels beyond level III (I will take Religious in the PBW game, so it isn't a fit of Religious-phobia). I must also admit I am intrigued by what you plan to add to the Religious trait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, my point was, that you esentially nerfed the sh*t out of planet improvement facilities, by increasing their cost dramatically, it would be 'unfair' to leave easy to access, and extremely cheap system wide planet improving tech in the game for those who go with a certain racial tech area.

With the increased price, building multiple improvement buildings is most probably out of question, you'll be happy, if you manage to build just one, so the fact, that the nature shrines do not stack is not that big of a disadvantage.

Im not saying they should cost the same as regular tech facilities, but compared to the price of a simple value improvement plant I, even the nature shrine III can be considered 'free'.

FFS, the value impro plant III is more expensive than the arcology (with arcology being 350k iirc) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif and even the arcologies have a build time, thats beyond reasonable (see my previous post about the 100-150 turn barrier).

Then again, im not the average proportions user, in my own games, i always mod your mod to some extent, for example by increasing the pop growth rate somewhat, modifying various building stats (recently, i've completely readjusted the colonial facilities of 3.0 to fit my taste, changed the way research facilities are spread on the tech tree, etc...)

Maybe i should stop posting stuff like that. Simply because my opinion is rather alone on the thread - havent seen too many Posts arguing with what i said - , and i feel it may be influencing you in a way, other Users of the mod may not like.

Lets just say, i'll stick to bug reporting, and will try not to come up with suggestions on how to make the mod better for my taste http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A question: if you destroy a planet, will it end up as an asteroid field, or will it completely disappear?

csebal

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

A destroyed planet gives an asteroid belt (of the same size as the planet), that could then be converted back into a planet. Only a Black Hole Creator can fully destroy planets (or anything else for this matter, wormholes notwithstanding).

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, not all is lost then i guess.. one can always recover from the loss of his planets... Then again, it'll surely take a lot of time to build that cultural center again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

In a normal resources game, the 3% is always added linearly to the planet value. 3% goes to 6%. 100% goes to 103%. 167% goes to 170%.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Thanks Fyron and Alneyan for that answer.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

By the same kind of reasoning, any unique racial ability is 'unfair', and they all have unique abilities. The real question is whether it is unbalanced. If I turn the Nature Shrine down to 1-2% instead of max 3%, I don't think it's unbalanced at all. Even at 3%, it only looks unbalanced to me if you are in a game with peace for the first 250 turns or so, and against players who won't gang up on you to take your extra-valuable planets. In other words, even as it was, it wasn't unbalanced, it was just a pretty strong very long-term strategy that required Religious racial tech. Temporal players can also try a long-term superiority strategy with, say, temporal space yards. Psychics could try a long-term intel dominance strategy with their unique psychic intel abilities. Organics can try a long-term superiority strat with their replicant centers. Crystallines can try one by making a ringworld out of one star in a trinary system and filling it with crystalline solar generators. Anyone can try an early game blitz strategy against any of those, and will have a 1500-racial point advantage, and be able to concentrate on weapons of conquest rather than long-range investments.
Yes, this is a good point. I needed to review the numbers. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!
If a 4-year investment by a strong colony can be considered 'free' from a certain perspective, then I suppose so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
Good observation. Question is, of course, how long should it take to build a Value Improvement Plant? What is a Value Improvement Plant, really, anyway? How desirable is it for players to be able to simply ADD value to any planet in a linear fashion (since it lets them essentially change the map)? Etc.
Ya it sounds like you prefer a slightly faster pace than the design parameters of Proportions, which I can certainly understand. Good to know.

Your comments and observations have been quite helpful. Thanks, and please let me know if you have any further feedback!

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Compared to the regular facility, which takes 40+ years to build for a lesser effect? Well, compared to that, a system wide facility that 'only' takes 4 years to build is virtually free. Thats how i meant it.
As the planet value adds to the effect of EVERY resource generator on that planet, i think the value improvement facilities are quite valuable.

Well, in singleplayer, i'm quite happy with the original pace, as i have all time of the world to play, and can run turns as fast i prefer.

In multiplayer games however, i found the proportions pace to be somewhat sluggish.. with turns only coming once a day - a year can pass by the time you build an arcology with the current constr. yard / facility stats. Even if it 'only' takes 100 turns to build, thats an average of 3 months, considering a one turn / day game speed.

This can - but again, this is rather subjective - make one feel like a snail, trying to reach the top of Everest.

I'll certainly do. I may not agree with every change made, but all-in-one, i like your mod. Talking about it: any news about the final Version? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

I understand, and sympathize a little. I was just stating the counterpoint.
Sure they're very valueable from the point of view of a player wanting to have one for themself. From the point of the mod designer, or of a player thinking about the type of game he wants to play, though, I think it can be desirable to limit the most powerful effects, particularly ones which don't make a lot of sense and/or which remove interesting limits which would otherwise need to be worked around. That's one of the main design themes of Proportions mod: find the things which are seem more powerful than they should be and that remove interesting choices from the game by offering ways around otherwise-interesting problems. If you can cheaply change the atmosphere of planets, or raise the value of all planets to maximum, then once that is done, the map is much less interesting because planets which were once uniquely valuable are now just average.
In Proportions multi-player, the goal should be something more like dominating the valley below Everest, because it will be 200 years before you have the technology to survive on top of Everest. There are still plenty of things to do that can be done on a shorter time scale. Maybe I should specify some victory conditions for these games, so people aren't stuck thinking they are supposed to turn the entire quadrant into utopias before getting down to business?
I'm sorry about the delay. I was supposed to get to finish it on Monday, but have had a steady stream of unexpected people wanting me to do unexpected major tasks immediately. I am now thinking Friday.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Is it me, or is the "code" font extremely small even using the larger shrapnel font? I can hardly read the items!

***

Edit: I just realized I was responding to a post for changes in Version 3.0 - not noticing that was about 100 Posts ago. Geez.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Heh. Actually, the browser (or OS?) Version and/or settings seem to have very different ideas about font sizes on this Version of the forum software.

On my IE6/Win98SE box, all the text is rather small.

On my IE6/WinXP box at work (where I think I have the font size turned up somewhere), it actually looks about like it used to. Then again, maybe it looks like it used to look at home, while it used to look big at work.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

We'll see how the new game runs. I'm sure it'll be full of action, but i'll miss having really developed worlds, as building something for two - real life - years will probably not be an option when you have possible enemies - aka allies - around you.

To repeat myself: we'll see what happens.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, believe it or not, I am going to post 3.0 today!

I have been adding a bunch of adjustments which I hope you'll agree are neat. I'm still testing and making Last-minute tweaks, but it will be available a bit later today.

Oh boy, new forum icons today... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Hmm, eyes but no nose: [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon10.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon10.gif[/img]

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Mmm, well, got stuck messing with Stellar Manipulation. I may have to finish it tomorrow morning.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Sounds good.

It may not be an issue, but i spotted something weird in the 3.0 preview. Looking at the tech tree (if you turn the all tech visible option on), the game throws an error.

It may not be a problem in the stock 3.0, but i think it costs nothing to check.

Too bad my friend, who also plays in our game just went to holiday this saturday http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Would the others kill me, if i would ask you to delay the game until next sunday? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Just joking. I'll try to get his passwords, so we don't have to wait trough the 48 hours for each turn.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Actaully, one of the players in the #2 game is out of pocket until the 26th due to a family emergency, so maybe a few more days won't be a bad idea..?

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

So how is it going PvK http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Oh my stars! Well, ahem, between my perfectionism, my addiction to adding "one more thing", my S.O.'s insistance on my assembly of hundreds and hundreds of pounds of "build it yourself" furniture (...), I kept delaying packing this up. Mainly I wanted to get everything that won't patch well put in before these games start. I seem to have some delusions about how much time it takes to do these things, as well as the aforementioned addiction to adding stuff. I don't know why I decided it would be so important to redesign the entire Stellar Manipulation tech area and split it into a dozen or more new technologies - I only know that I still think it's a cool idea - but my rational side is mad at myself for not deciding to skip it since that stuff doesn't generally get used until turn 200+ anyway. At least there are a lot of changes and better-tweaked values on many things. Coming soon... real real soon, darn it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif No, seriously, I am trying to post it this morning.
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon48.gif[/img] <- minor explosion in research lab

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ok, so later tonight... [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

At least, I am going to be really pretty pleased with the stuff I added, I think. I added some useful stuff, too, which should lend some freshness to it - mainly the weapons I adapted from Foundations mod. APB and Meson BLasters are now very high-tech weapons which do a lot of damage to unshielded targets, while laser and charged particle weapons take their place and vie with the adjusted DUC for early-tech weapons.

PvK

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Well, thats two people out of game #2 already... then i would say it cant hurt to wait a few more days.

Sure, there are still 6 of us there, but personally i dont mind the wait, as i rather play with all the players there, instead of waiting 48 hours for every turn.

Thats not good for us, and not good for them either, because they'll miss the first few turns that way, and thats quite annoying.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Additionally, PvK can use that few days to wrap things up nicely.

I would love to have some orbital research / intel labs for example :P

-- csebal takes cover before people start shooting.

Re: PBW PvK Proportions Game #2
 

Ditto.